2 Thessalonians 1:7-10

mkgal1 · Oct 19, 2019

mkgal1 said:
Right. The point I'm trying to make is that - in between this 1st letter from Paul, Timothy, and Silvanus and the 2nd one - those at the church @ Thessolonica were confused by false teachers stating the this "coming of the Lord" had already happened (and the letter was to assure them it hadn't happened yet - when the letter was written....around 51 to 52 A.D.). If what they were expecting to happen were as if some people in our present day imagine this occurrence to be (with the church being gathered and God destroying the unbelievers) then how could they be afraid that had already happened? Either they would've been gathered up or destroyed in that sort of scenario. So that doesn't leave much room for it happening and people missing it (IF that were the proper teaching).

If that is what Paul had instructed them - first hand when he was with them (and is what these letters mean) then that doesn't seem like something people would be confused about happening (when it hadn't). Do you follow?

This is how 2 Thessalonians begins - answering their question:

2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 ~ Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to Him, we ask you, brothers, not to be easily disconcerted or alarmed by any spirit or message or letter presuming to be from us and alleging that the day of the Lord has already come. Let no one deceive you in any way, for it will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness—the son of destruction—is revealed.

Quoting from linked article: For if their expectation of the Lord’s coming was that it would bring an end to the world, or that it would result in the instant removal of all believers from the planet, it’s hard to imagine how they could be led to believe that these things had already occurred. If the Day of the Lord referred to “a rapture,” and they thought it may have already occurred, why would Paul still be around? As David Lowman, a Presbyterian pastor, has written:

“Now, if on the other hand, the Thessalonians believed the Day of the Lord to be the coming judgment against apostate Israel, then asking about that event would make sense. And if they had friends or relatives in the Judean area it would easily explain their concern that the Day of the Lord had passed.”
David points out that the Greek word for the phrase “gathered together,” episunagoge, used in II Thess. 2:1, appears three times in the New Testament: [1] in Matthew 24:31 (“…and He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other”; see our study of this passage), [2] here in this passage, [3] and in Hebrews 10:25 (“not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day drawing near”). ~ II Thessalonians 2 and the Man of Lawlessness

BABerean2 said:
His coming, and the gathering of believers to Him, are found in all of the following passages.

That doesn't address the conundrum I mentioned between what those at the church of Thessalonica (around 51-52 A.D.) were writing to Paul about - their confusion about whether or not the coming of the Lord had already happened & the problem that causes to the belief that this "coming of the Lord" is about believers being taken and unbelievers being destroyed (in your belief - that remains left unfulfilled).

Does it make sense to you that - the way you've described the "gathering of His church" and the destruction of the unbelievers at the same time - that would be something they could have missed (at the time when they asked Paul, Timothy, and Silvanus)? Do you believe Paul had taught them that's what the Day of the Lord would look like - and then they believed they could have possibly have missed it? Wouldn't Paul, himself, have been gathered? Why would they write to him (and Timothy and Silvanus) if they thought the Day of the Lord had already happened?

The passage infers there was a counterfeit letter circulating - feigning to be from Paul, Timothy, and Silvanus - announcing that the Day of the Lord HAD already come (how could they even expect believers to be able to write such a letter if the Day of the Lord means the believers are taken and unbelievers are destroyed)? What's your explanation of that?

DavidPT · Oct 19, 2019

mkgal1 said:
That doesn't address the conundrum I mentioned between what those at the church of Thessalonica (around 51-52 A.D.) were writing to Paul about - their confusion about whether or not the coming of the Lord had already happened & the problem that causes to the belief that this "coming of the Lord" is about believers being taken and unbelievers being destroyed (in your belief - that remains left unfulfilled).

Does it make sense to you that - the way you've described the "gathering of His church" and the destruction of the unbelievers at the same time - that would be something they could have missed (at the time when they asked Paul, Timothy, and Silvanus)? Do you believe Paul had taught them that's what the Day of the Lord would look like - and then they believed they could have possibly have missed it? Wouldn't Paul, himself, have been gathered? Why would they write to him (and Timothy and Silvanus) if they thought the Day of the Lord had already happened?

The passage infers there was a counterfeit letter circulating feigning to be from Paul, Timothy, and Silvanus announcing the Day of the Lord HAD already come (how could they even write such a letter, if the Day of the Lord means the believers are taken and unbelievers are destroyed)? What's your explanation of that?

2 Timothy 4:6 For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand.

A verse like this tends to prove 'at hand' doesn't always mean something already in progress. The way you seem to be understanding the verse below is, that these particular Thessalonians thought the gathering unto Him was already in progress, and that they missed it, thus were left behind.

2 Thessalonians 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

Paul was simply telling them this event is not right around the corner, but that other things have to be fulfilled first, before the day of Christ can even occur.

LittleLambofJesus · Oct 19, 2019

BABerean2 said:
His coming, and the gathering of believers to Him, are found in all of the following passages.

1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
1Th 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. (See also 2 Peter 3:10-13, and Revelation 16:15-16 for references to the thief in the night.)
1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
1Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
1Th 5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
1Th 5:6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
1Th 5:7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
1Th 5:8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
1Th 5:10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2Th 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
2Th 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
.

Bab
I think most of us, both Preterists and Futurists, are familiar with those verses, so why keep regurgitating them....

BABerean2 · Oct 19, 2019

LittleLambofJesus said:
Bab
I think most of us, both Preterists and Futurists, are familiar with those verses, so why keep regurgitating them....

I could ask the same question about why you make a claim about a book you have not read.

I have read that book, and those scriptures.

There are no verses of scripture which compare to "regurgitating". John 1:1
He is the Word.

.

BABerean2 · Oct 19, 2019

mkgal1 said:
The passage infers there was a counterfeit letter circulating - feigning to be from Paul, Timothy, and Silvanus - announcing that the Day of the Lord HAD already come (how could they even expect believers to be able to write such a letter if the Day of the Lord means the believers are taken and unbelievers are destroyed)? What's your explanation of that?

2Ti 2:16 But shun profane and idle babblings, for they will increase to more ungodliness.
2Ti 2:17 And their message will spread like cancer. Hymenaeus and Philetus are of this sort,
2Ti 2:18 who have strayed concerning the truth, saying that the resurrection is already past; and they overthrow the faith of some.

.

mkgal1 · Oct 20, 2019

mkgal1 said:
That doesn't address the conundrum I mentioned between what those at the church of Thessalonica (around 51-52 A.D.) were writing to Paul about - their confusion about whether or not the coming of the Lord had already happened & the problem that causes to the belief that this "coming of the Lord" is about believers being taken and unbelievers being destroyed (in your belief - that remains left unfulfilled).

Does it make sense to you that - the way you've described the "gathering of His church" and the destruction of the unbelievers at the same time - that would be something they could have missed (at the time when they asked Paul, Timothy, and Silvanus)? Do you believe Paul had taught them that's what the Day of the Lord would look like - and then they believed they could have possibly have missed it? Wouldn't Paul, himself, have been gathered? Why would they write to him (and Timothy and Silvanus) if they thought the Day of the Lord had already happened?

The passage infers there was a counterfeit letter circulating - feigning to be from Paul, Timothy, and Silvanus - announcing that the Day of the Lord HAD already come (how could they even expect believers to be able to write such a letter if the Day of the Lord means the believers are taken and unbelievers are destroyed)? What's your explanation of that?

BABerean2 said:
2Ti 2:16 But shun profane and idle babblings, for they will increase to more ungodliness.
2Ti 2:17 And their message will spread like cancer. Hymenaeus and Philetus are of this sort,
2Ti 2:18 who have strayed concerning the truth, saying that the resurrection is already past; and they overthrow the faith of some.

.

Do you have an explanation for that?

BABerean2 · Oct 20, 2019

mkgal1 said:
Do you have an explanation for that?

It has been commonly understood for many years that the Thessalonian believers were worried about those among them who had already died.
Would the souls of their dead loved ones be gathered to Christ?
This appears to be the purpose of Paul's reassurance in 1 Thessalonians chapters 4, and 5.

Why were they concerned?
It appears that some, like Hymenaeus and Philetus, were spreading rumors that the resurrection was already past, and therefore their loved ones had missed it.
This could be connected directly to the counterfeit letter.

.

Woke · Oct 20, 2019

mkgal1 said:
That doesn't address the conundrum I mentioned between what those at the church of Thessalonica (around 51-52 A.D.) were writing to Paul about - their confusion about whether or not the coming of the Lord had already happened & the problem that causes to the belief that this "coming of the Lord" is about believers being taken and unbelievers being destroyed (in your belief - that remains left unfulfilled).

Does it make sense to you that - the way you've described the "gathering of His church" and the destruction of the unbelievers at the same time - that would be something they could have missed (at the time when they asked Paul, Timothy, and Silvanus)? Do you believe Paul had taught them that's what the Day of the Lord would look like - and then they believed they could have possibly have missed it? Wouldn't Paul, himself, have been gathered? Why would they write to him (and Timothy and Silvanus) if they thought the Day of the Lord had already happened?

The passage infers there was a counterfeit letter circulating - feigning to be from Paul, Timothy, and Silvanus - announcing that the Day of the Lord HAD already come (how could they even expect believers to be able to write such a letter if the Day of the Lord means the believers are taken and unbelievers are destroyed)? What's your explanation of that?

You are assuming those Thessalonians believed they would be raptured up when Christ first comes. If we think we know what they believed that idea of ours will contradict the FACTS Paul is correcting their beliefs in his letter, he is correcting it because someone is teaching wrong ideas, and when there is a group of any size its members don't believe the same things. Just as members on this thread.

It's clear what Paul meant by his reference to what Christ does. In scripture Christ does not come to Earth to kill those who don't believe in him until he comes to rule the whole world. Gospels teach Roman armies would destroy Jerusalem, not Christ and his angels.

Many comments on this thread are assuming ideas not in the scriptures. Like you saying the letter infers someone was spreading a letter to those people claiming the day of the Lord occurred. No it doesn't.

There are no scriptures anywhere in the Bible that state Christ comes back after he was killed and kills unbelievers, until he comes to rule the world. That's the huge hole in your argument.

But since you did mention that belief the Thessalonians could have held about the rapture. Look at chapter 2, and remember there were no chapters in the original letter. Paul continues in chapter two to speak of Christ's coming and he adds that they will be gathered to Christ when he comes, just as Paul wrote in his first letter when writing of Christ's return. Paul didn't start a completely different topic, talking about a completely separate event than the event he introduced in chapter one of his second letter. He was speaking of the SAME event. That pokes another HUGE hole in the argument of those who teach chapter one refers to Jerusalem's destruction in AD 70. Since Christians were not added to Christ's presence in AD 70 chapter two also tears your argument apart.

COMPARE WHAT PAUL WROTE AT 1THESSALONIANS 5:2 TO WHAT CHRIST SAID ABOUT HIS COMING AS A THIEF IN THE NIGHT. PAUL SAID THAT HAPPENS ON, "THE DAY OF THE LORD, " AT 1 THESSALONIANS 5:2. AND IS'T THAT THE "LORD'S DAY? " SOMEONE ON THIS THREAD WAS TEACHING "THE LORD'S DAY," IS NOT WHEN CHRIST RETURNS TO TAKE WORLD DOMINATION. BUT THAT'S NOT WHAT PAUL TAUGHT.

JLB777 · Oct 20, 2019

mkgal1 said:
Are you asserting that every time in Scripture we find the coming of the Lord as in Isaiah 19 & in Micah 1 - that's referring to the resurrection, rapture, and destruction of the antichrist?

I’m asserting again, as I said before, that the coming (Parousia) of the Lord Jesus Christ, as taught in the New Testament, refers to the time when the resurrection, rapture, and destruction of the antichrist.

The coming (Parousia) happens once at the end of the age, on the last Day.

JLB

DavidPT · Oct 20, 2019

JLB777 said:
I’m asserting again, as I said before, that the coming (Parousia) of the Lord Jesus Christ, as taught in the New Testament, refers to the time when the resurrection, rapture, and destruction of the antichrist.

The coming (Parousia) happens once at the end of the age, on the last Day.

JLB

I can see Pretribbers maybe disagreeing with you here, but some of these disagreeing with you here are not even Pretribbers though.

mkgal1 · Oct 20, 2019

JLB777 said:
I’m asserting again, as I said before, that the coming (Parousia) of the Lord Jesus Christ, as taught in the New Testament, refers to the time when the resurrection, rapture, and destruction of the antichrist.

The coming (Parousia) happens once at the end of the age, on the last Day.

JLB

IOW......you're repeating yourself and completely dismissing my question.

I'll rephrase my question for you. What about the OTHER times that "comings" of the Lord are mentioned in the Bible (as I provided). Why are those different - if you believe they are? Why are the New Testament proclamations different than the Old Testament?

mkgal1 · Oct 20, 2019

BABerean2 said:
Why were they concerned?

My question wasn't "why were they concerned" but "HOW were they confused?" - especially if Paul had taught that "the coming of the Lord" that was to grant relief to them was an event where everyone was affected in some way (believers are "taken away" and unbelievers are destroyed). There'd be no confusion as to whether or not an event like that had occurred.

I don't believe that's what Paul had taught them. As you know by now, I believe this event - that the Thessalonians were anticipating in their lifetime - would occur in Jerusalem, but would still affect them (by granting them relief from persecution).

BABerean2 · Oct 20, 2019

mkgal1 said:
I don't believe that's what Paul had taught them. As you know by now, I believe this event - that the Thessalonians were anticipating in their lifetime - would occur in Jerusalem, but would still affect them (by granting them relief from persecution).

If you are correct, why were they worried about their loved ones who were already dead?

.

mkgal1 · Oct 20, 2019

Woke said:
You are assuming those Thessalonians believed they would be raptured up when Christ first comes.

No, that is *definitely* not my assumption. I was referring to others that hold to that view and building on that idea and how it doesn't make sense the Thessalonians would be afraid they missed an event like that.

Woke said:
Many comments on this thread are assuming ideas not in the scriptures. Like you saying the letter infers someone was spreading a letter to those people claiming the day of the Lord occurred. No it doesn't.

2 Thessalonians 2:2 ~ not to be easily upset or troubled, either by a prophecy or by a
message or by a letter supposedly from us, alleging that the day of the Lord has come.

Woke said:
AT 1 THESSALONIANS 5:2. AND IS'T THAT THE "LORD'S DAY? " SOMEONE ON THIS THREAD WAS TEACHING "THE LORD'S DAY," IS NOT WHEN CHRIST RETURNS TO TAKE WORLD DOMINATION. BUT THAT'S NOT WHAT PAUL TAUGHT.

Yes - that is referring to the Day of the Lord. The disagreement is over timing and meaning of terms. I don't believe "Christ returns to take world domination" in the way some people do (and that's what caused the zealots a lot of trouble in the 1st century - they also expected their own version of that). Christ assuming His (rightful) place on the throne of David isn't something seen on earth - but the people in the 1st century saw the *signs* of that occurrence (in my belief).

mkgal1 · Oct 20, 2019

BABerean2 said:
If you are correct, why were they worried about their loved ones who were already dead?

.

Consider the audience Paul was speaking to. These were mostly Gentiles, with no previous knowledge of the God of the Israelites. Their culture was pagan cultism. It would make sense that they would fall back on their previous understandings of gods and the afterlife and compare the Gospel of Jesus Christ to what was familiar to them.

Quoting Dr. Randall Otto: The Thessalonian church was comprised primarily of Gentile converts from the pagan cults of Dionysus, Zeus, Asclepius, Aphrodite, Demeter, and perhaps most important, the cult of Cabirus. They were converts from a social and religious milieu in which gods and demons were understood to have control over virtually all aspects of life. "Threatened by powers and demons, by illnesses and unforeseen strokes of fate, one lived in suspense and fear and felt subject to overpowering forces against which one could not assert oneself." 2 The Thessalonian converts may have thought that the gods and demons who inhabited the air were responsible for the persecution and death suffered in their church. In fear occasioned by the apparent victories of the forces of darkness over them, the Thessalonian church was concerned whether those who had died would be with the Lord at all, not simply at his parousia. Their own fate would thus also have been in doubt. It was with these specific concerns in mind that Paul wrote the 4,13-5,10 pericope, affirming that those whom God has elected are assuredly the Lord's, attested by their "meeting in the air" at the parousia to behold the victory of the conquering Christ over the forces of darkness. ~ "The Meeting in the Air (1 Thess 4:17)," Horizons in Biblical Theology 19 (1997):192-212,God of hope - Randall E. Otto - Free E-Book Download

IOW......Paul (and Timothy and Silvanus) were reassuring them, I believe, that they were still in the middle of God's war......and that their persecution *would* end soon. That's why this promise was given to the Thessalonians - to reassure them (their "rest" wasn't in death - but in the end of the persecution that happened in 70 A.D.):

2 Thessalonians 1:6 ~ God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you

2 Thessalonians 1:7 ~ And God will provide rest for you who are being persecuted and also for us when the Lord Jesus appears from heaven. He will come with his mighty angels.

keras · Oct 20, 2019

Woke said:
There are no scriptures anywhere in the Bible that state Christ comes back after he was killed and kills unbelievers, until he comes to rule the world. That's the huge hole in your argument.

But there is plenty that say the Lord will SEND His judgment/punishment before He Returns. This is exactly what Paul is telling us in 2 Thess 1:7-10. Amos 1:4,7,10,12 &14, + Amos 2:2-5 make this clear.

The Day of Vengeance and the wrath of God; Revelation 6:12-17

Psalms 11:4-6 The Lord is in heaven,….. He will rain fiery coals onto the wicked….

Isaiah 66:15-16 See, the Lord will Judge with fire, His Sword will test mankind.

Micah 5:15 In anger and fury, I shall wreak vengeance on the nations who disobey Me.

Habakkuk 3:12 Furiously; You trample down the nations.

Malachi 4:1 The Day comes; burning like a furnace, evildoers will be as stubble.

Hebrews 10:27...a terrifying judgement of fire that will consume God’s enemies.

Isaiah 30:26 On the day that the Lord saves His people,[born again Christians] the sun will shine with seven times its usual strength.. and the moon will be as bright as the sun.

Revelation 14:17-20 ..the angel with authority over fire....the winepress of God’s wrath…

So, we see that the first event is the Lord sending fire by the means of an earth directed explosion of the suns surface, literally causing all the graphic effects prophesied.

The Great Day of the Sovereign Lord; the Return of the Lord Jesus; Rev 16:14b

Matthew 24:29-31 As soon as this time of distress has passed [the Tribulation] the sun will be darkened and the moon will not give light, the stars will fall and all the heavenly bodies will be shaken. Then ALL the peoples will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. With a trumpet blast He will send His angels to gather His chosen from the farthest corners of the world. These will be all the people who have kept faithful to the Lord during the Tribulation as all the Christians will be living in the Land soon after the Day of vengeance. Ezekiel 34:11-16

Revelation 19:11-21....Jesus Returns and the destroys Satan’s armies, by the Sword of His Word and Satan is bound until the end of the 1000 years.

There will be four judgement/punishments, the first to happen soon, the Lord’s Day of vengeance and wrath, a worldwide judgement of fire, earthquakes, storms and tsunamis against the nations, that will particularly affect the Middle East. Zephaniah 1:14-18, Ezekiel 30:1-5 This will enable His people, every faithful Christian person, Jew or Gentile, to resettle the Land. Ezekiel 34:11-16

Then, later comes the Gog/Magog attack onto the Lod's people, living in peace and prosperity in all of the holy Land and how the Lord causes the attackers destruction. Ezekiel 38 & 39

At the Return of Jesus, He destroys the armies of the Anti Christ. Revelation 19:17-21 Then, at the end of the Millennium, there is another attack by a huge army, then comes the Great White Throne judgement of all people alive and dead.

Note: that in Rev 19:13 Jesus Returns in a garment dyed in blood. In Isaiah 63:3 He tramples the nations....and their blood spattered all his clothing. From this and the sequence in 2 Thessalonians, we can say that the Day of the Lord’s wrath- the Sixth Seal, Revelation 6:12-17 will be the next prophesied event of the end times.

mkgal1 · Oct 20, 2019

Woke said:
There are no scriptures anywhere in the Bible that state Christ comes back after he was killed and kills unbelievers, until he comes to rule the world. That's the huge hole in your argument.

I think you're misunderstanding what it means for Him to be the King of Kings (what you called "ruling the world") and also what His "coming" means (the word "back" is presumed - but NOT there in the text).

I believe His revelation from heaven - as mentioned in this very passage - is Him becoming the King of Kings and His placement on the throne of David in heaven.

2 Thessalonians 1:7-10 ~
[This will take place] at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with His powerful angels,
8 taking vengeance with flaming fire on those who don't know God and on those who don't obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.
9 These will pay the penalty of everlasting destruction, away from the Lord's presence and from His glorious strength,
10 in that day when He comes to be glorified by His saints and to be admired by all those who have believed, because our testimony among you was believed

mkgal1 · Oct 20, 2019

DavidPT said:
2 Timothy 4:6 For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand.

A verse like this tends to prove 'at hand' doesn't always mean something already in progress.

First of all - I've not said that "at hand" is equal to "already in progress" (other translations of this passage state "the day of the Lord has come" and don't use "is at hand").2 Thessalonians 2:2 not to be easily disconcerted or alarmed by any spirit or message or letter seeming to be from us, alleging that the Day of the Lord has already come.

But.....this verse you're sharing about Paul (2 Timothy 4:6) does certainly imply to me that Paul knew *something* about his own death coming soon. IOW.....he must have noticed "signs" - which is what Jesus and Paul had instructed their followers to watch for - "the SIGNS" of His coming.

DavidPT said:
The way you seem to be understanding the verse below is, that these particular Thessalonians thought the gathering unto Him was already in progress, and that they missed it, thus were left behind.

2 Thessalonians 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

Paul was simply telling them this event is not right around the corner, but that other things have to be fulfilled first, before the day of Christ can even occur.

That's not my understanding of the passage - I was arguing against that position (I don't believe in a literal removal of believers).

It is the general understanding of the passage that they were confused by a false teaching the Day of the Lord had come. My argument was against those that believe in the Day of the Lord to be a literal "taking" of believers and destruction of unbelievers. If that were the Thessalonian's understanding (that there'd be a literal removal of believers) it'd be impossible to miss an event like that (one way or another - they would know when that Day had come, if Paul taught it to be like that).

I agree with you - that Paul was reminding them of the things that needed to take place first (which goes along with what Jesus had said in His Olivet Discourse) before the Lord Jesus would be revealed from heaven.

JLB777 · Oct 20, 2019

mkgal1 said:
IOW......you're repeating yourself and completely dismissing my question.

I'll rephrase my question for you. What about the OTHER times that "comings" of the Lord are mentioned in the Bible (as I provided). Why are those different - if you believe they are? Why are the New Testament proclamations different than the Old Testament?

I see now what the problem is.

Your not understanding what the coming (parousia) of the Lord is.

Or you wouldn’t keep asking me the same question over and over, as if the answer is going to change.

I have given you the scriptures from 1st and 2nd Thessalonians that show the resurrection and rapture as well as the destruction of the antichrist all take place at His coming.
The second coming of Jesus Christ.

How could the second coming of Jesus Christ take place in the Old Testament before He first appeared? Before the first coming?

JLB

mkgal1 · Oct 20, 2019

JLB777 said:
I see now what the problem is.

Your not understanding what the coming (parousia) of the Lord is.

Or you wouldn’t keep asking me the same question over and over, as if the answer is going to change.

I have given you the scriptures from 1st and 2nd Thessalonians that show the resurrection and rapture as well as the destruction of the antichrist all take place at His coming.
The second coming of Jesus Christ.

How could the second coming of Jesus Christ take place in the Old Testament before He first appeared? Before the first coming?

I don't think you *do* understand the problem.

You're right - you have been giving me 1st and 2nd Thessalonians scriptures on a loop - but you seem to be ignoring the passages that *I* shared about the "coming of the Lord" mentioned in the Old Testament. I'd asked you to respond to those passages and to offer your thoughts on them.

This was my original response to you saying that "the coming of the Lord (Parousia) is when the resurrection, rapture and destruction of the antichrist occur."

I said:

mkgal1 said:
Are you asserting that every time in Scripture we find the coming of the Lord as in Isaiah 19 & in Micah 1 - that's referring to the resurrection, rapture, and destruction of the antichrist?

Here's Isaiah 19 again:

Isaiah 19:1-2 ~ This is an oracle concerning Egypt: Behold, the LORD rides on a swift cloud; He is coming to Egypt. The idols of Egypt will tremble before Him, and the hearts of the Egyptians will melt within them.

and:

Micah 1:3-5
Judgment Against Samaria and Jerusalem

3 Look! The Lord is coming from his dwelling place;
he comes down and treads on the heights of the earth.
4 The mountains melt beneath him
and the valleys split apart,
like wax before the fire,
like water rushing down a slope.
5 All this is because of Jacob’s transgression,
because of the sins of the people of Israel.

So - care to comment on these Isaiah and Micah passages? What are your thoughts about *these* comings of the LORD?

2 Thessalonians 1:7-10

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

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Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

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His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

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Well-Known Member

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

Newbie

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

Newbie

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

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