Was the holocaust due in part to the Jewish people rejecting Jesus?

Dave L · Oct 20, 2019

Aussie Pete said:
The creation of the state of Israel is in accordance with God's word. They were scattered according to God's word and some have come back, as prophesied. I wonder if any Jews repented after 6 million were slaughtered by the Nazis under Hitler? Did any of the survivors cry out to God as Israel did in Egypt? It is a miracle that Israel survived the first onslaught, the day that they declared independence. It's a miracle that they still survive, in spite of being surrounded by nations that would cheerfully exterminate every Jew. If you are interested and open minded, a gentleman named Derek Prince was living and ministering in Israel when independence was declared. He had troops billeted in his home and got constant updates. He and his team were praying constantly, as you would expect. Check out his report on the events during that period of time. It makes for fascinating reading.

You need scripture for this. And none exists. All the promises are YES in Jesus. And the land belongs to him and those who accept him.

“The land shall not be sold for ever: for the land is mine; for ye are strangers and sojourners with me.” (Leviticus 25:23)

“Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.” (Galatians 3:16)

“For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.” (2 Corinthians 1:20)

------------

“This means it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God; rather, the children of promise are counted as descendants.” (Romans 9:8)

JackRT · Oct 20, 2019

NothingIsImpossible said:
should have added I also have a few christians friends (well friends through my parents) that believe the holocaust end of WW2 was a hoax. Which makes no sense.

I have personally talked with a survivor and also a veteran who helped liberate one of the camps.

AvisG · Oct 20, 2019

275px-Mass_Grave_3_at_Bergen-Belsen_concentration_camp.jpg

I must say, I'm haunted by the notion that anyone worships a God for whom this, visited upon innocent men, women and children living thousands of years after Deuteronomy was written and 1900 years after Jesus was crucified, is plausibly attributable to a divine curse or chastisement.

If I believed that, I'd be a Buddhist before the day was over. If I were even capable of believing that, I'd be wondering "What sort of person am I anyway - what sort of help do I need?" I might even be wondering "What sort of religion could do this to my brain, to the person I used to be?"

JackRT · Oct 20, 2019

AvisG said:
View attachment 265283
I must say, I'm haunted by the notion that anyone worships a God for whom this, visited upon innocent men, women and children living thousands of years after Deuteronomy was written and 1900 years after Jesus was crucified, is plausibly attributable to a divine curse or chastisement.

If I believed that, I'd be a Buddhist before the day was over. If I were even capable of believing that, I'd be wondering "What sort of person am I anyway - what sort of help do I need?" I might even be wondering "What sort of religion could do this to my brain, to the person I used to be?"

A holocaust survivor once told me that on the morning of his liberation he awoke to find the camp gates wide open, the towers unmanned, the soldiers gone. At the age of 16 he was probably the only one in the camp still strong enough to walk to the main gate and out onto the road. He felt exhausted and sat down on a large stone at the side of the road across from the gates. He enjoyed the bright warm spring day and listened to the birds singing. The birds were singing!!! He had not heard them the day before or the day before that. He realized that because he was a prisoner that, even though they sang, he did not hear them. He was free, he could hear the birds again! He then heard the footsteps of his liberators. The first Russian troops were approaching the camp.

The first Russian soldier to see him sat down beside him on the rock, handed him his canteen with fresh water, pulled a long loaf of fresh bread out his pack, broke off two pieces. They shared a silent meal for a few moments. Then two civilians, a young man and woman approached, both blonde haired, Aryan in appearance and well fed. The Russian soldier leveled his weapon at them and ordered them to stop. He walked up to the young man and tore the sleeve off his shirt exposing his SS tattoo. He then came back and handed his weapon to the survivor and indicated that he should shoot them. The survivor shook his head no and handed back the weapon. The Russian shot them both dead in the middle of the road.

He also told me that it was 25 years before he could even speak of the horror of his experience in the concentration camps. His own wife did not know till 15 years after their marriage. He said "for 25 years I could not speak of it, now I cannot stop speaking of it". He now spends much of his time telling his story before school groups. His effect on these groups is deeply profound.

JackRT · Oct 20, 2019

There is an old veteran in my town who has some experience with the holocaust. He enlisted in the British army early in WWII as an infantryman. He was seriously wounded in North Africa and was sent back to England for treatment and rehabilitation. He was then not deemed fit to be an infantryman so he retrained as a medic. It was in that role that he entered Bergen-Belsen when the camp was liberated by elements of the British 11th Armoured Division and the Canadian 3rd Infantry Division. Six thousand prisoners were found inside, most of them seriously ill, starved and debilitated . Another 13,000 corpses lay around the camp unburied. The scenes that greeted these troops were famously described by the BBC war correspondent , who accompanied them: “Here over an acre of ground lay dead and dying people. You could not see which was which ... The living lay with their heads against the corpses and around them moved the awful, ghostly procession of emaciated, aimless people, with nothing to do and with no hope of life, unable to move out of your way, unable to look at the terrible sights around them ... Babies had been born here, tiny wizened things that could not live ... A mother, driven mad, screamed at a British sentry to give her milk for her child, and thrust the tiny mite into his arms, then ran off, crying terribly. He opened the bundle and found the baby had been dead for days. This day at Belsen was the most horrible of my life.” The veteran mentioned earlier said that the survivors were terribly infested with lice, ticks and other vermin so they were treated with DDT just as soldiers were. He then broke down crying and said “My God, we didn't know! We killed a thousand of them. Over the next 24 hours they dropped dead in front of us of toxic shock. We just didn't realize that they were so debilitated that they would react in this way.” Whenever I encounter a holocaust denier I think of this and similar stories I have been told personally by those who were there.

I do not see the hand of God in any of this. These horrors are entirely man made.

Dave L · Oct 20, 2019

AvisG said:
View attachment 265283
I must say, I'm haunted by the notion that anyone worships a God for whom this, visited upon innocent men, women and children living thousands of years after Deuteronomy was written and 1900 years after Jesus was crucified, is plausibly attributable to a divine curse or chastisement.

If I believed that, I'd be a Buddhist before the day was over. If I were even capable of believing that, I'd be wondering "What sort of person am I anyway - what sort of help do I need?" I might even be wondering "What sort of religion could do this to my brain, to the person I used to be?"

“He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.” John 3:36 (KJV 1900)

AvisG · Oct 20, 2019

Dave L said:
“He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.” John 3:36 (KJV 1900)

But of course, that's my point: If the Holocaust is your idea of the "wrath" of God "abiding" on kind and decent men, women and children living in the 1940s, any of whom might have come to Christ if they had lived, take your religion and shove it.

In law school, professors used to use the Socratic method of questioning to lead first-year students down a path of "logic" whereby the student would paint himself into a corner where he was logically forced to agree with some completely insane proposition: "Well, yeah, I guess everyone over the age of 65 should be killed." Some versions of Christianity strike me as very similar.

JackRT · Oct 20, 2019

AvisG said:
But of course, that's my point: If the Holocaust is your idea of the "wrath" of God "abiding" on kind and decent men, women and children living in the 1940s, any of whom might have come to Christ if they had lived, take your religion and shove it where the Son don't shine.

The idea of a wrathful God is one that dies hard. I think that the notion originated in ancient times when people envisioned God as much like a tyrranical mid-eastern despot. Fear is also quite handy for control purposes.

AvisG · Oct 20, 2019

JackRT said:
The idea of a wrathful God is one that dies hard. I think that the notion originated in ancient times when people envisioned God as much like a tyrranical mid-eastern despot. Fear is also quite handy for control purposes.

Agreed. I edited the post you quoted because I thought it was unduly snarky toward Dave L, who I'm sure is kind to widows, children and puppies.

Because my Christianity is somewhat "informed" by Buddhism, I do try to have compassion on those who are trapped in this ghastly OT understanding of God - but it's a challenge.

AlexDTX · Oct 20, 2019

NothingIsImpossible said:
I'm sure this topic may stir up some but I am simply looking for opinions.

After the American Civil War, Confederate General Albert Pike, a 33 degree Mason, outlined a 3 part plan to establish Israel as a nation. First, the Ottoman Empire had to be broken up. This was accomplished by WWI when a series of treaties obligated nations to come to the aid of other nations after the Archduke Ferdinand was assassinated. This was further accomplished by Lawrence of Arabia promising the Saudi Arabs that they would have their own kingdom if they helped overthrow the Ottoman Turks. After WWI and the break up of the Ottoman Empire, Palestine became the property of the British Crown. The second part was to create world wide sympathy for the displaced Jewish people by creating some kind of horrific atrocity against them. This was accomplished by the holocaust which is a blend of myth with truth. Both the British Rothschild family (who owns Jerusalem even today) and the American Rockefeller family (currently merged with the Rothschilds) financed both sides of WWII. It is speculated that Adolf Schickleberg (a bastard child raised by his mother who later changed his name to Hitler after his step father) was actually a Rothschild offspring. And that he was financed by the Rothschilds to carry on his war effort. The holocaust brought about world wide sympathy which enabled the Balfour declaration to be backed by the renewed League of Nations, now called the United Nations, to declare Palestine the homeland of Israel. The third part of Pike's plan has not yet come to pass. This is to build up Islamic terrorism (hence the current war on terror) to a point that they successfully invade Israel, but are overthrown as a means of establishing Israel as the center of world wide government.

This plan is reputed to be found in a letter that Albert Pike had written to someone else.

The idea for an holocaust was an easy one to implement because the Jewish people have been exiled from over 200 countries who kicked them out over the last 2,000 years. According to Ashkenazi Jew and Holocaust survivor, Israel Shahak, in his book, "3,000 Years of Jewish History" the anti-semitism they experienced was the result of a small group of Jews called, Hofjuden, who saw the advantage of brown nosing European royalty to act as their middlemen to control and collect taxes from the serfs. And, according to Shahak, it was the serfs who expelled the Jews, not the governments (with the exception of Nazi Germany) because the governments were financially prospering under Hofjuden service. The Rothschilds are Hofjudens.

This is the human side of the story. On the divine side, the misery of the Jews is because they rejected Christ who is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. It is a completely un-biblical doctrine that the Jews have salvation in the Mosaic covenant. They do not. It is un-biblical to say that if we bless Israel then we are blessed. We are blessed by believing in Jesus Christ. It is a blessing to the body of Christ when any Jew comes to faith in Christ, but they are all anti-christ because of their rejection of Christ. It is also a mistake on the part of Christians to believe the Jews hold the Old Testament as their rule and faith of life. They do not. Their faith is in the Talmud which is openly hostile to Christ and Christians. Some put their faith in the Kabbalah which declares that there is not one god but many gods, so these Jews are polytheists.

Dave L · Oct 20, 2019

AvisG said:
But of course, that's my point: If the Holocaust is your idea of the "wrath" of God "abiding" on kind and decent men, women and children living in the 1940s, any of whom might have come to Christ if they had lived, take your religion and shove it.

In law school, professors used to use the Socratic method of questioning to lead first-year students down a path of "logic" whereby the student would paint himself into a corner where he was logically forced to agree with some completely insane proposition: "Well, yeah, I guess everyone over the age of 65 should be killed." Some versions of Christianity strike me as very similar.

What about the slaughter of the Canaanites? The destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD, all sent by God? The flood? The looming destruction of the earth by fire?

JackRT · Oct 20, 2019

AvisG said:
Agreed. I edited the post you quoted because I thought it was unduly snarky toward Dave L, who I'm sure is kind to widows, children and puppies.

Because my Christianity is somewhat "informed" by Buddhism, I do try to have compassion on those who are trapped in this ghastly OT understanding of God - but it's a challenge.

What post do you refer to?

timewerx · Oct 20, 2019

Here's probably something that many haven't heard of yet.

The account of many Jews saying Hitler was a prophet sent by God to punish them....

And Hilter saying he's a prophet sent by God to punish the Jews for their worship of Mammon (in his diaries).

We live in a crazy world

AvisG · Oct 20, 2019

timewerx said:
Here's probably something that many haven't heard of yet.

The account of many Jews saying Hitler was a prophet sent by God to punish them....

And Hilter saying he's a prophet sent by God to punish the Jews for their worship of Mammon (in his diaries).

We live in a crazy world

Is it possible you've been misled by the "Hitler's diaries" hoax? Hitler Diaries - Wikipedia

The Nazi regime was influenced primarily by occultism. Hitler's "religion" was complex, see Religious views of Adolf Hitler - Wikipedia, but I'd be astounded (which I'm always prepared to be) if he ever expressed sentiments such as you attribute to him.

The struggle of Jews to come to grips with the horror of the Holocaust is understandably complex. This is a pretty good summary of the diverse responses: Holocaust theology - Wikipedia.

I'm not aware of any Jews suggesting Hitler was a "prophet," but some did attribute the Holocaust to "divine wrath." However, "Most Modern Orthodox Jews reject the idea that the Holocaust was God's fault. Modern Orthodox rabbis such as Joseph Soloveitchik, Norman Lamm, Randalf Stolzman, Abraham Besdin, Emanuel Rackman, Eliezer Berkovits, and others have written on this issue; many of their works have been collected in a volume published by the Rabbinical Council of America in a volume entitled: Theological and Halakhic Reflections on the Holocaust."

We do indeed live in a crazy world - virtually every thread on a forum such as this is sufficient proof of that!

Daniel C · Oct 20, 2019

All God has to do is lift his hand up and a people or nation are totally without protection.

D.A. Wright · Oct 20, 2019

timothyu said:
Is there an expiration date on how long a holocaust can be milked?

No, there isn't.

D.A. Wright · Oct 20, 2019

AvisG said:
View attachment 265283
I must say, I'm haunted by the notion that anyone worships a God for whom this, visited upon innocent men, women and children living thousands of years after Deuteronomy was written and 1900 years after Jesus was crucified, is plausibly attributable to a divine curse or chastisement.

If I believed that, I'd be a Buddhist before the day was over. If I were even capable of believing that, I'd be wondering "What sort of person am I anyway - what sort of help do I need?" I might even be wondering "What sort of religion could do this to my brain, to the person I used to be?"

You might want to prepare yourself for a few extremely rude awakenings. God gives life, and He can take it in any fashion He deems fit. I would never personally make the judgment that the Holocaust was indeed "attributable to a divine curse" but, generally speaking, God is at liberty to bring divine judgment upon whomever, whenever, and wherever it seems right for Him to do so. For me to believe otherwise would seem dangerously akin to preferring sentimentalism over truth.

As humans, we tend to value temporal human life and health above all, all too often including righteousness, eternal life, and the safety, security, and harmony of God's universe. But we "wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities and powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms." We see what is recorded in pictures, moving and still, but were the curtain rolled away and we could see the supernatural, the image would be much more complicated to behold. There would appear "hills full of horses and chariots of fire all around" as they did to Elisha and the perplexed servant. God had His 7000 there the day the picture was taken.

In the end, there is no shame in ending up in a mass grave ditch. Only in being barred from ever rising up from it. Or in ordering its digging.

bèlla · Oct 20, 2019

Anguspure said:
The Holocaust was due to the same effect that causes persecution of the Jews throughout history, basically envy because they know how to live successfully under depressed circumstances whereas the dominant population fail to live according to the precepts of God and fail.

You’re correct and that still holds true today. A Fortune magazine article regarding the Universal Basic Income (the article is abbreviated online) and Wikipedia page on Jewish businesspeople prompted a discussion on their ability to rebound in light of the Holocaust.

The survivors received a lot of help and support from the community. Starting over was less challenging for them than for other displaced groups. Although I wasn’t born at that time, I see traces of your comment within myself and others of Jewish descent. I liken it to an indomitable spirit.

I hadn’t considered its impact on my faith and mindset until your comment. Its a knowing that never departs. No matter the challenges or obstacles I face. I expect to prevail and trust the end will be better than the beginning.

I don’t believe you attain that through theology or mantras. It’s part of your divine workmanship. Faith amplified what existed and honed its direction. But He fashioned me this way from the start.

You’ve brought a familiar text to mind that I see operating within my life. Maybe I needed a reminder and I thank you for giving it.

~Bella

Heavenhome · Oct 20, 2019

JackRT said:
A holocaust survivor once told me that on the morning of his liberation he awoke to find the camp gates wide open, the towers unmanned, the soldiers gone. At the age of 16 he was probably the only one in the camp still strong enough to walk to the main gate and out onto the road. He felt exhausted and sat down on a large stone at the side of the road across from the gates. He enjoyed the bright warm spring day and listened to the birds singing. The birds were singing!!! He had not heard them the day before or the day before that. He realized that because he was a prisoner that, even though they sang, he did not hear them. He was free, he could hear the birds again! He then heard the footsteps of his liberators. The first Russian troops were approaching the camp.

The first Russian soldier to see him sat down beside him on the rock, handed him his canteen with fresh water, pulled a long loaf of fresh bread out his pack, broke off two pieces. They shared a silent meal for a few moments. Then two civilians, a young man and woman approached, both blonde haired, Aryan in appearance and well fed. The Russian soldier leveled his weapon at them and ordered them to stop. He walked up to the young man and tore the sleeve off his shirt exposing his SS tattoo. He then came back and handed his weapon to the survivor and indicated that he should shoot them. The survivor shook his head no and handed back the weapon. The Russian shot them both dead in the middle of the road.

He also told me that it was 25 years before he could even speak of the horror of his experience in the concentration camps. His own wife did not know till 15 years after their marriage. He said "for 25 years I could not speak of it, now I cannot stop speaking of it". He now spends much of his time telling his story before school groups. His effect on these groups is deeply profound.

truly heartbreaking.

Daniel C · Oct 20, 2019

Basil the Great said:
We can only hope that no one votes "yes" in this poll.

Well i'm sorry to say your ''hope'' failed. The yes votes are a minority but nevertheless present.

Was the holocaust due in part to the Jewish people rejecting Jesus?

Was the holocaust due in part to the Jewish people rejecting Jesus?

Yes

No

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Other

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