Politics in the Church

MarkSB · Oct 20, 2019

Just to provide some background to my post: Before I became a Christian, I was mostly apolitical. Since becoming a Christian, I have become politically conservative. For a short time when I was in my twenties, I considered myself to be a republican, but eventually came to the conclusion that pledging my loyalty to any one political party just wasn't for me. So I consider myself (politically) to be a conservative independent.

During the months leading up to the 2016 presidential election, I was shocked at the overwhelming Christian support for Donald Trump. Here is a man who does not flesh out Christian morals, and as far as I can tell is unrepentant, and yet he has overwhelming support from white evangelicals. I might be able to understand if people voted for him as the "lesser of two evils"... but that doesn't seem to be the case.

When I came to be a Christian 17 years ago (after a youth of partying and crime), the Donald Trump version of Christianity is not what I envisioned when I came to know God. In fact, he embodies many of the bad behaviors which I have worked together with God to leave behind. Yet I'm confident that the pastor of my church is a big fan of Trump. He doesn't come right out and say it, but I feel like the underlying tone is there in some of his sermons, and he talks about how people are sometimes upset by the political messages on his Facebook page (I'm not on Facebook, so have never seen his page for myself). The tipping point for me probably came last year, when at the beginning of one of his sermons he said that he was "praying for Brett Kavanaugh." This was after the hearings, where Kavanaugh most likely lied under oath by saying that "Devil's Triangle" was a drinking game, "boofing" means to fart, and that "Renate Alumni's" written in him and his friend's yearbooks meant that they had all gone on dates with a girl named Renate (and that none of these were sexual references).

I've gotten to the point where I find it difficult to put my trust in a church which unconditionally supports politicians simply because of their political affiliation. Most of this, of course, seems to be centered around supporting politicians who are opposed to abortion. I'm very pro-life, and yet I can't comprehend a church putting all other morals aside and supporting politicians based merely on the fact that they SAY they are pro-life.

So to get to my point... I didn't come here to start a political debate, but am wondering what other people have done when they have encountered politics being dragged into the church. I'm to the point where it almost makes me not want to go, or to try finding a different congregation. Perhaps I am focusing too much on the negative? Do you think that politics has a place in the church, and when you have encountered it in the church how have you handled it?

Thanks,
Mark

redleghunter · Oct 20, 2019

We don’t discuss politics in my church.

redleghunter · Oct 20, 2019

And our ministry team does not tell the flock who to vote for.

Sketcher · Oct 20, 2019

My pastor called out both Trump and Clinton as sinners.

Going much further beyond that tends to result in disagreements that are in danger of turning into factions.

Heavenhome · Oct 20, 2019

Church is for God, not politics and there is enough of it outside without bringing it into worship.

redleghunter · Oct 20, 2019

Sketcher said:
My pastor called out both Trump and Clinton as sinners.

Going much further beyond that tends to result in disagreements that are in danger of turning into factions.

Everyone who is on any ticket is a sinner.

I’m surprised 81% of Evangelicals voted for the heretic Mormon Romney.

If we are going to apply “sainthood” to voting then we as Christians will never vote for any political office. Even the candidates, though they be few, who present a polished moral public image are sinners. We just don’t know what they do in private. Should we know? Of course if we are voting for or hiring a pastor or elder.

So I found it odd why with some candidates the bar is higher for sinfulness. People said “Obama was not a real Christian.” How did they come to this conclusion? And what does it have to do with Obama or any other candidates exercising their constitutional duties?

Now I think personally, not as a church we should look for what the candidates stand for in policy and in social issues.

MarkSB · Oct 20, 2019

Thank you all for your replies. So it sounds like I'm not off-base to think that politics shouldn't be mentioned at the pulpit. I'm not sure if looking for a different congregation is the answer, but I might give it a shot. My wife's family goes to the church that we're at now, but she has said that she thinks a smaller congregation might be better. And the church which we've been thinking about going to is quite a bit closer.

Perhaps, to my own part, I should care less about politics than what I do... but when I begin to see it intermingled with religion, I begin to worry. Seeing it in my congregation is starting to make me think that it's not the place for me.

rockytopva · Oct 20, 2019

Politics... I believe this is the reason most churches average 89....

8 Reasons Most Churches Never Break the 200 Attendance Mark - CareyNieuwhof.com

Melody Suttles · Oct 20, 2019

Yes, Donald Trump is a flawed man. One might say he is just as bad as these biblical heroes who were also very flawed people.

Samson – Was a womanizer
Rahab – Was a prostitute
Samaritan Woman – Divorced 4 times and living with a man
Jacob – Was a cheater and a con
David – Was an adulterer and a murderer
Jonah – Ran from God
Peter – Denied Christ three times

I think Trump is most like Jehu who was not at all a godly man but worshiped pagan gods. He was not a politician, either. But he was a fighter and known to be a little bit wild. Nevertheless, God still sent him to defeat the first lady of that time - Jezebel. As flawed as he was, Jehu obediently took on the evil rulers and clean the swamp of corruption and he was victorious. He stopped all child sacrifices and destroyed all pagan idols. In the end, he was a converted believer and had become a hero of our Scriptures - still a flawed man.

But God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise; God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong; (1 Cor 1:27)

He controls the course of world events; he removes kings and sets up other kings. He gives wisdom to the wise and knowledge to the scholars. (Dan 2:21)

For the foolishness of God is wiser than man’s wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man’s strength. Brothers, consider the time of your calling: Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were powerful; not many were of noble birth. 27 But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. . . so that no one may boast in His presence. (1 Cor 1)

“Teacher, the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?”
6 They were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing him. But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger.
7 When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, “Let any one of you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her.” (John 8)

redleghunter · Oct 20, 2019

MarkSB said:
Thank you all for your replies. So it sounds like I'm not off-base to think that politics shouldn't be mentioned at the pulpit. I'm not sure if looking for a different congregation is the answer, but I might give it a shot. My wife's family goes to the church that we're at now, but she has said that she thinks a smaller congregation might be better. And the church which we've been thinking about going to is quite a bit closer.

Perhaps, to my own part, I should care less about politics than what I do... but when I begin to see it intermingled with religion, I begin to worry. Seeing it in my congregation is starting to make me think that it's not the place for me.

Yes I’d say this church actually spends time during services or Bible study discussing politics then perhaps they have their priorities not in order.

If the members bring up moral issues such as pro life that would not be discussing politics but affirming the Biblical stance on life. How they respond is another thing. For my church we discuss how we can change the culture to respect all life from conception to death. We act by ministry in our community. Now this conviction of Biblical protection of life will no doubt convince members to consider political candidates when they individually exercise their right to vote.

Albion · Oct 20, 2019

During the months leading up to the 2016 presidential election, I was shocked at the overwhelming Christian support for Donald Trump. Here is a man who does not flesh out Christian morals, and as far as I can tell is unrepentant, and yet he has overwhelming support from white evangelicals. I might be able to understand if people voted for him as the "lesser of two evils"... but that doesn't seem to be the case.

Mark

Here's the answer to the apparent contradiction, Mark. Donald Trump is NOT a form of Christianity. He was running for a political office, a governmental office, which makes policy that affects the churches.

After years of having the federal government introduce policies that compromised the principle of freedom of religion and strove to erase the presence of religious faith in public life, Donald Trump promised to go in the other direction and has done so.

That in itself is sufficient to win a vote from any Christian who wants our traditional freedom of religion to be maintained.

As an aside, I could sympathize with people who say that he doesn't seem to be the epitome of a devout Christian, but neither does he pretend to be...unlike a lot of other politicians, whether Republican or Democrat.

You also asked about our own churches and how to handle the problem you inquired about. The fact is that there are as many politically liberal denominations as conservative ones, so don't make the mistake of thinking this is not the case. My own church doesn't engage in that sort of thing, but many do, and I would say that the ones that lean politically liberal are probably more involved in doing that than the politically conservative ones are (and I've experienced both, at one time or another).

Sketcher · Oct 20, 2019

MarkSB said:
Thank you all for your replies. So it sounds like I'm not off-base to think that politics shouldn't be mentioned at the pulpit. I'm not sure if looking for a different congregation is the answer, but I might give it a shot. My wife's family goes to the church that we're at now, but she has said that she thinks a smaller congregation might be better. And the church which we've been thinking about going to is quite a bit closer.

Perhaps, to my own part, I should care less about politics than what I do... but when I begin to see it intermingled with religion, I begin to worry. Seeing it in my congregation is starting to make me think that it's not the place for me.

If the unspoken rule is to not get too political at church but you see it happening anyway, you can use that. What I do is steer the conversation away from the political, even though I'm a political person, when the situation isn't appropriate for politics. For instance, when serving together.

RestoreTheJoy · Oct 20, 2019

MarkSB said:
Just to provide some background to my post: Before I became a Christian, I was mostly apolitical. Since becoming a Christian, I have become politically conservative. For a short time when I was in my twenties, I considered myself to be a republican, but eventually came to the conclusion that pledging my loyalty to any one political party just wasn't for me. So I consider myself (politically) to be a conservative independent.

(Snip)
I've gotten to the point where I find it difficult to put my trust in a church which unconditionally supports politicians simply because of their political affiliation. Most of this, of course, seems to be centered around supporting politicians who are opposed to abortion. I'm very pro-life, and yet I can't comprehend a church putting all other morals aside and supporting politicians based merely on the fact that they SAY they are pro-life.

So to get to my point... I didn't come here to start a political debate, but am wondering what other people have done when they have encountered politics being dragged into the church. I'm to the point where it almost makes me not want to go, or to try finding a different congregation. Perhaps I am focusing too much on the negative? Do you think that politics has a place in the church, and when you have encountered it in the church how have you handled it?

Thanks,
Mark

NO! Render to Caesar what is Caesar's and to God what is God's. Jesus already answered this question.

Lots of what you see in Church today is not of God. It's just performance art, unless we are changing the world, preaching and teaching the Word and healing the sick. God has a whole lot to say about how he feels about that all the way through the prophets.

We have not because we ask not. We have not because we care more about buildings and rituals and even outward moral appearance than we do about advancing the Kingdom of God which is among us.

Let the world do what it wants to do. Vote because it is your civic duty - usually you just have to pick the lesser of two evils. And then get on with your real work, which is advancing the Kingdom of God in your daily lives.

Isaiah 1: 12“When you come to appear before me,
who has required of you
this trampling of my courts?
13Bring no more vain offerings;
incense is an abomination to me.
New moon and Sabbath and the calling of convocations—
I cannot endure iniquity and solemn assembly.
14Your new moons and your appointed feasts
my soul hates;
they have become a burden to me;
I am weary of bearing them.
15When you spread out your hands,
I will hide my eyes from you;
even though you make many prayers,
I will not listen;
your hands are full of blood.
16Wash yourselves; make yourselves clean;
remove the evil of your deeds from before my eyes;
cease to do evil,
17learn to do good;
seek justice,
correct oppression;
bring justice to the fatherless,
plead the widow’s cause.

Micah 6:8

8He has shown you, O mortal, what is good.

And what does the Lord require of you?

To act justly and to love mercy

and to walk humbly a with your God.

RestoreTheJoy · Oct 20, 2019

Albion said:
Here's the answer to the apparent contradiction, Mark. Donald Trump is NOT a form of Christianity. He was running for a political office, a governmental office, which makes policy that affects the churches.

After years of having the federal government introduce policies that compromised the principle of freedom of religion and strove to erase the presence of religious faith in public life, Donald Trump promised to go in the other direction and has done so.

That in itself is sufficient to win a vote from any Christian who wants our traditional freedom of religion to be maintained.

As an aside, I could sympathize with people who say that he doesn't seem to be the epitome of a devout Christian, but neither does he pretend to be...unlike a lot of other politicians, whether Republican or Democrat.

You also asked about our own churches and how to handle the problem you inquired about. The fact is that there are as many politically liberal denominations as conservative ones, so don't make the mistake of thinking this is not the case. My own church doesn't engage in that sort of thing, but many do, and I would say that the ones that lean politically liberal are probably more involved in doing that than the politically conservative ones are (and I've experienced both, at one time or another).

Right. It was never about Trump being some paragon of virtue. I think it is indisputable that he is not. What you see is what you get. No pretense here.

He doesn't work actively against people who love the Lord though, or those who just want to practice their faith in peace. And that's a win in this dark environment.

MarkSB · Oct 20, 2019

Albion said:
Here's the answer to the apparent contradiction, Mark. Donald Trump is NOT a form of Christianity. He was running for a political office, a governmental office, which makes policy that affects the churches.

After years of having the federal government introduce policies that compromised the principle of freedom of religion and strove to erase the presence of religious faith in public life, Donald Trump promised to go in the other direction and has done so.

That in itself is sufficient to win a vote from any Christian who wants our traditional freedom of religion to be maintained.

As an aside, I could sympathize with people who say that he doesn't seem to be the epitome of a devout Christian, but neither does he pretend to be...unlike a lot of other politicians, whether Republican or Democrat.

You also asked about our own churches and how to handle the problem you inquired about. The fact is that there are as many politically liberal denominations as conservative ones, so don't make the mistake of thinking this is not the case. My own church doesn't engage in that sort of thing, but many do, and I would say that the ones that lean politically liberal are probably more involved in doing that than the politically conservative ones are (and I've experienced both, at one time or another).

Perhaps another thread should be started for this. Justifying your support of Donald Trump was not the question which I put forth.

Lying under oath is sin, and it is an act which is unbecoming for a Justice of the Supreme Court. Period. The character and sense of entitlement which Kavanaugh displayed during the hearings should have made any discerning Christian take a few steps back. Yet he gets a "Pass" from the evangelical crowd because he is "pro-life." To take that viewpoint is twisting the Word of God to fit your political agenda. I don't think Christ would've tolerated it.

MarkSB · Oct 20, 2019

Thanks again to all for the replies. I am requesting that this thread be closed.

Paidiske · Oct 20, 2019

The approach that I take is that commenting on person or party is off-limits, but commenting on particular policies and their relationship to the reign of God is appropriate.

So I might, for example, say that I cannot see how one can support policy x from a gospel framework, but I won't then tell people "don't vote for this candidate/party who support policy x." People need to work out their own voting priorities without undue influence from me.

redleghunter · Oct 20, 2019

Paidiske said:
The approach that I take is that commenting on person or party is off-limits, but commenting on particular policies and their relationship to the reign of God is appropriate.

So I might, for example, say that I cannot see how one can support policy x from a gospel framework, but I won't then tell people "don't vote for this candidate/party who support policy x." People need to work out their own voting priorities without undue influence from me.

Very sage approach.

Tigger45 · Oct 20, 2019

MarkSB said:
Just to provide some background to my post: Before I became a Christian, I was mostly apolitical. Since becoming a Christian, I have become politically conservative. For a short time when I was in my twenties, I considered myself to be a republican, but eventually came to the conclusion that pledging my loyalty to any one political party just wasn't for me. So I consider myself (politically) to be a conservative independent.

During the months leading up to the 2016 presidential election, I was shocked at the overwhelming Christian support for Donald Trump. Here is a man who does not flesh out Christian morals, and as far as I can tell is unrepentant, and yet he has overwhelming support from white evangelicals. I might be able to understand if people voted for him as the "lesser of two evils"... but that doesn't seem to be the case.

When I came to be a Christian 17 years ago (after a youth of partying and crime), the Donald Trump version of Christianity is not what I envisioned when I came to know God. In fact, he embodies many of the bad behaviors which I have worked together with God to leave behind. Yet I'm confident that the pastor of my church is a big fan of Trump. He doesn't come right out and say it, but I feel like the underlying tone is there in some of his sermons, and he talks about how people are sometimes upset by the political messages on his Facebook page (I'm not on Facebook, so have never seen his page for myself). The tipping point for me probably came last year, when at the beginning of one of his sermons he said that he was "praying for Brett Kavanaugh." This was after the hearings, where Kavanaugh most likely lied under oath by saying that "Devil's Triangle" was a drinking game, "boofing" means to fart, and that "Renate Alumni's" written in him and his friend's yearbooks meant that they had all gone on dates with a girl named Renate (and that none of these were sexual references).

I've gotten to the point where I find it difficult to put my trust in a church which unconditionally supports politicians simply because of their political affiliation. Most of this, of course, seems to be centered around supporting politicians who are opposed to abortion. I'm very pro-life, and yet I can't comprehend a church putting all other morals aside and supporting politicians based merely on the fact that they SAY they are pro-life.

So to get to my point... I didn't come here to start a political debate, but am wondering what other people have done when they have encountered politics being dragged into the church. I'm to the point where it almost makes me not want to go, or to try finding a different congregation. Perhaps I am focusing too much on the negative? Do you think that politics has a place in the church, and when you have encountered it in the church how have you handled it?

Thanks,
Mark

Wow, could of written this OP myself. My wife and I are members of an apolitical congregation and wouldn’t have it any other way. They preach from the lectionary and stick to the text.

mnorian · Oct 20, 2019

Mod hat on

thread was closed by OP's request.
Hat off.

Politics in the Church

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