THE TRUE "REPLACEMENT THEOLOGY/SUPERSESSIONISM" OF THE BIBLE

DO YOU AGREE WITH THE OP POST?


  • Total voters
    21
Status
Not open for further replies.

jgr

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Feb 25, 2008
9,692
5,007
✟783,467.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Yes they made reconciliation by slaughtering the true passover Lamb!

Scripture?

They will bring in everlasting righteousness when they call upon Jesus to return.

Scripture?

Dan. 12 God instructs Daniel to seal the vision and book!

Christ sealed, i.e. validated and authenticated, vision and prophecy by fulfilling what was written of Him. (Luke 24:44)

Now explain why the most holy hear refers to Jesus when the usual and almost unanimous usage of the term refers to the holyof holies which must be anointed!

The NT describes Christ as Holy in at least six instances (Luke 1:35; Acts 3:14; 1 John 2:20; Mark 1:24; Acts 2:27; Revelation 3:7).

How many times is a temporal temple described as holy?

There is nothing more Holy than the Son of God.

He is also declared to be Anointed. (Luke 4:18-22; Acts 4:27; Acts 10:38)

There is nothing more Anointed than the Son of God.
 
  • Winner
Reactions: BABerean2
Upvote 0

LittleLambofJesus

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!
Supporter
May 19, 2015
125,492
28,587
73
GOD's country of Texas
Visit site
✟1,237,240.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Libertarian
Well as for the 1599 Bible and its footnotes- the church world was still in the throes of Covenant theology and allegorical interpretation popularized by Augustine!
They also were still fighting hard to bring true doctrine to light from the darkness of the dark millenia of the church!

But I listened to your preacher on Daniel 9:27 and he does what all allegorists do- take a simple word with a clear unambiguous meaning to the readers or hearers and then retranslate it!

I will give you one example (actually tewwo)

1. The he who makes the covenant with Israel for seven years has to go back to its nearest antecedent( your preacher was close hear), and the nearest antecedent is the prince of the people that shall come and destroy the sanctuary It cannot be Messiah the Prince!

2. Causing the sacrifice and oblation to cease! A normal usual typical reading of this simply means that the sacrificial system came to a physical end! but you rpreacher decided that God had a bad day when He inspired Daniel to write that because he tells us it means that his death ceased the sacrifices from being propitiatory anymore! He says in effect- I know what god said- but this is really what it means! Well I know Godf knew how to say what you rpreacher said and would have said that if He meant that!

Besides you rpreacher has a real problem- with the 70 years running continuous with out a break- He has Jesus making the covenant and dying both in 27 A.D.

Remember God saying this?

Daniel 9:24-26 King James Version (KJV)
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

See verse 26? In modern English it reads -after 483 years Jesus will die, but not for Himself! And at the same time your preacher is saying Jesus is making a firm covenant with Israel by His being baptized by John and the Father and Spirit coming down! C'mon man! That is even more far out than the allegories the Watchtower throws out!
I have listened to that video many times, and never heard what you are claiming above.

Christ was anointed by His Father from heaven at His baptism during 27 AD.

Because Bible scholars have found 4 Passovers in the Gospels, many believe the earthly ministry of Christ was about 3 1/2 years.

That puts His sacrifice at Calvary during 30 AD.

Based on Matthew 10:5-7, and Romans 1:16, and Galatians 1:14-18, the Gospel was taken "first" to Daniel's people for about 7 years before Paul began his ministry to the Gentiles.

This brings us up to 34 AD.

.
Well you were not listening carefully then and looking ath e prophesy.

Daniel 9:24-27 King James Version (KJV)
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Let me put the end of 25 and the beginning of 26 into modern English. After 483 years (49 years and 434 years) Jerusalem will be built and Messiah the Prince!

After those 483 years Messiah will be killed, but not for Himself. Well your preacher said the 483 years started at Jesus' Baptism by John in 27 AD (that is when He said the most holy was anointed by Israel), a re translation of what Baptism is. So sometime after Jesus baptism he had to die! Why would God speak in such specific time frames throughout this prophecy and then go dark as to meaning that after 483 years actually meant 3 1/2 more years? That is foolish!

And that whole business about Paul? So now you accept "about" 7 years as being close enough to fulfill prophesy? Sorry but that won't do for a God who is perfect and will not lie and could have said "around" 7 years!
Once again, you are ignoring the same concept found below in the 1599 Geneva Bible, in an attempt to make Dr. Kelly Varner out to be a lone fool.

Daniel 9:27

And he (a) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to (b) cease, (c) and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

(a) By the preaching of the Gospel he affirmed his promise, first to the Jews, and after to the Gentiles.

(b) Christ accomplished this by his death and resurrection.

(c) Meaning that Jerusalem and the sanctuary would be utterly destroyed because of their rebellion against God, and their idolatry: or as some read, that the plague will be so great, that they will all be astonished at them.

Do you deny that Christ's baptism was the beginning of His public ministry?

Do you deny that He was crucified 3 1/2 years later?



.
Well I don't care about commentaries in Bibles. You will find those that agree with allegorical interpretation and I will find mine that AGREE WITH LITERAL, HISTORICAL, GRAMMATICAL INTERPRETATION! And in the 17th century most of teh church was still inteh throes of allegorism as the main tool to understand SCripture going back to Augustine.

And no it is not to make Dr. Varner a lone fool. He has tons of company!

But once again let us look at what your preacher said and compare it with Scripture!

He declared the 490 years of Daniel are continuous and ended in 34 AD.

So let us look at the events he said took place after 69 weeks or 483 years! and what Daniel said!

Daniel 9:24-27 King James Version (KJV)
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

I do not deny Jesus public ministry began after the baptism of JOhn (He was led in to the wilderness for forty days and then He spent time gathering the 12) His first public act was at teh Wedding Feast of Cana

And Yes He was cricified approx. 3 1/2 years later! That is where Varner veers from Scripture!

Verse 26 "after 483 years shall Jesus be killed but not for Himself!"

If we are to follow Varners timeline Jesus began His ministry the same time He was crucified according to Daniel!

Verse 26 again!
Daniel 9:26 King James Version (KJV)
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

So we either have to back his death up 49 years if you don't want to include the first 7, or He died after 69 7's or 483 years! And saying that means "sometime after 483 years" is hogwash! that is twisting SCripture to fit a preconceived bias! 3 1/2 years would be 486 1/2 years. And given that Gods has been so specific so far in Daniel I don't think He needed editors to allegorize after to mean 3 1/2 years after.

Baptism is not an anointing! It never was thought that .

So Jesus (according ot your preacher) started HIs ministry and died after 483 years according to the Scripture!

or

According ot all messianic Jews who are adept at Hebrew that I have read or studied under. The 69 weeks ended when Jesus made His triumphal entry on Palm Sunday and then the next week He was cut off but not for HImself!
And the best you have done to finish the 490 years is to give us an approximate by Paul going out to the gentiles! Well Paul started His ministry sometime in the mid 30's and it is a further stretch to believe that Paul preaching ot the gentiles (when the other Apostles were still preaching to the Jews)

fulfilled all what was to occur to the Jews in the 490 years- even the Watchtower is not that far fetched!

Close is good for horseshoes but not for
Biblical prophesy!
BABerean2 said:
I have shown that Daniel 9:24 is fulfilled in Acts of the Apostles 10:38, and Hebrews 10:16-18. What more is needed to show that the angel Gabriel was referring to the New Covenant in Daniel 9:27?

Your attempts to ignore the fact that Christ fulfilled the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34, reveals the error of your Two Peoples of God doctrine.
What does a Hebrew scholar say below about the passage?
nolidad said:
A normal, usual grammatical and literal reading of Daniel 9:24 tells the world that it is the Jewish people who have to anoint the Most Holy which in Jewish thought, has always referred to the holy of holies.
He was also anointed by at least one of His own people.
Mar 14:8 She has done what she could. She has come beforehand to anoint My body for burial.
Mar 14:9 Assuredly, I say to you, wherever this gospel is preached in the whole world, what this woman has done will also be told as a memorial to her."
.
Songs?

Sng 1:12
The Shulamite
While the king is at his table, My spikenard sends forth its fragrance
.
=======================================
If one looks at the Assembly in Smyrna, it comes from the Greek word myrrh
and is used in verses concerning the birth and burial of our Lord Jesus. Fascinating study.


Revelation chapter 2 - 1st four Churches
LLoJ SMYRNA

2:8"And to The Messenger of the in assembly of Smyrna, write!.................

The T-R appears to deviate from the other 3 texts in this verse.

Only YLT uses the word "Smyrneans" and the order is reversed:
'And to the *messenger of the assembly" of the Smyrneans write


Smyrna means “sweet smelling” and comes from the root word for myrrh.

The word "myrrh" is only used 2 times in the NT.
At the birth of Jesus and at His burial

Matthew 2:11
and having come to the house, they found the Child with Mary his mother, and having fallen down they bowed to him,
and having opened their treasures, they presented to him gifts, gold, and frankincense, and myrrh,
John 39:
18 and Nicodemus also came -- who came unto Jesus by night at the first --
bearing a mixture of myrrh and aloes, as it were, a hundred pounds.
19 They took, therefore, the body of Jesus, and bound it with linen clothes with the spices, according as it was the custom of the Jews to prepare for burial;

========================

Smyrna means “sweet smelling” and comes from the root word for myrrh.

The myrrh plant is found throughout the Middle East and was used in the manufacture of an aromatic ointment. When bruised and crushed, the myrrh gives forth a lovely fragrance.
Myrrh was used to embalm the bodies of the dead. Carefully the linens were prepared, and wound around the bodies of the loved ones, while myrrh was packed between the folds of the cloth. Thus was the body of our Lord embalmed!

After the death of Jesus, the women, who had loved and followed Him on earth, brought one hundred pounds of myrrh and aloes to the tomb. With what grief did they take that precious body and wind about it the linen cloths! With what untold tenderness did they lay it away in the bed of fragrant spices!
Thus myrrh is a type of suffering and death, and some in the church at Smyrna were to pass through bitter persecution, severe trials, and intense testings, as a picture of that which all of God’s called and chosen elect must also pass through. Their sufferings, however, instead of destroying them, would give forth the rich perfume of heaven, the life of the spirit!
============================
Kindgdom Bible Studies Revelation Series

Of the seven churches, two of them received no indictment from the Lord, nor were they told to repent.
The church in Smyrna was known as the “suffering church” because of their severe persecutions, and they were not told to repent. The Lord saw their trouble and tribulation, their poverty and imprisonment, their unswerving steadfastness and great faithfulness, and they did not need to be told to repent. It was in their hearts to repent when the need arose, for the work of God ran deep in their lives. Considering all they would suffer, the Lord said to them, “Be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life” (Rev. 2:10).

Another church against which the Lord laid no charge, nor did He tell them to repent, was the church in Philadelphia. The Lord saw that they kept His word and had not denied His name, or nature. Because they kept the word of His patience, by which the kingdom of God is inherited, He gave them wonderful promises.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

BABerean2

Newbie
Supporter
May 21, 2014
20,614
7,484
North Carolina
✟893,665.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I agree with you 100% that the sacrifice of Jesus ended the efficacy of the OT sacrificial system. It did not however end the system itself!


Modern Orthodox Jews have sacrificed animals in Jerusalem during this year.
Do you think this has reinstated the OT sacrificial system?



.
 
  • Winner
Reactions: jgr
Upvote 0

nolidad

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jan 2, 2006
6,762
1,269
69
onj this planet
✟221,310.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
What remains of the New Covenant that is yet to be fulfilled that was not fulfilled on the cross and by the resurrection of our Lord? What has yet to happen is for the Jews to finally embrace the New Covenant. God has done His part through Christ to establish the New Covenant. Our part is to receive it by receiving Christ.

You are correct.

There is a generation of Israel to come who will each and every single one get saved by receiving Christ and cause Jesus to return!

Remember Jesus' return is based upon Israel saying "Blessed is He who comes in the Name of the Lord."
 
Upvote 0

Contenders Edge

Well-Known Member
Supporter
May 13, 2019
2,615
370
43
Hayfork
✟167,447.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Then Paul should have used both words.


Paul used the words that he was inspired to use to communicate the intent and focus of the passage. Anthropos can be applied in the singular for the purpose of simply describing an individual person. (man or woman) And because Aner is restricted to the definition of the male gender, it was not the proper word to use since believers, collectively and individually consisted of male and female.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Contenders Edge

Well-Known Member
Supporter
May 13, 2019
2,615
370
43
Hayfork
✟167,447.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
You are correct.

There is a generation of Israel to come who will each and every single one get saved by receiving Christ and cause Jesus to return!

Remember Jesus' return is based upon Israel saying "Blessed is He who comes in the Name of the Lord."


But is this what you meant by the Covenant being only partially fulfilled? If so, then the New Covenant has been fulfilled in full. It is just that we have to receive it. If not, then explain what you mean.
 
Upvote 0

LittleLambofJesus

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!
Supporter
May 19, 2015
125,492
28,587
73
GOD's country of Texas
Visit site
✟1,237,240.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Libertarian
jgr said:
Then Paul should have used both words.
Paul used the words he was inspired to communicate the intent and focus of the passage. Anthropos can be applied in the singular for the purpose of simply describing an individual person. (man or woman) And because Aner is restricted to the definition of the male gender, it was not the proper word to use since believers, collectively and individually consisted of male and female.
I explained that in another post........

THE TRUE "REPLACEMENT THEOLOGY/SUPERSESSIONISM" OF THE BIBLE

both words used in this verse of Zech 8:23 concerning 10 men [of the 10 tribes of Israel?] following Jesus. Some have interpreted this as 10 men following any Jew.......

Churches view on Zech 8:23
LLoJ Feb 6, 2007


Zechariah 8:23 Thus says Yahweh of Hosts: "in those days which they shall-take-firm-hold a-hem/wing, Ten Men/Mortals/582 'enowsh, from-all Tongues-of the-Nations.
Yea, and-They-take-fast/hold in-hem-of a Man/0376 'iysh, a-Judean/Jew/Y@huwdiy to-say of 'We-are-going with-Thee, that We-hear Elohim with-Thee'". [Mark 6:56]

582 'enowsh en-oshe' from 605;
properly, a mortal (and thus differing from the more dignified 120); hence, a man in general (singly or collectively):-
H582 אֱנוֹשׁ (j'enlève) occurs 564 times in 530 verses
============================
Last 2 verses in OT

Malachi 3:
16 Then they are spoken to, ones fearing Yahweh, man<376> with associate of him, and Yahweh is attending and is hearing.
And is being written a scroll of memorial/remembrance before Him, those fearing Yahweh and to those meditating on His Name.
17 “And they become to Me ,” says Yahweh of hosts,
for day which I making/doing a special/peculiar possession and I spare them, as a man<376> spares his own son who serves him.”
=======================
Fairly good Hebrew study site........

The Ancient Hebrew Research Center
shalom.png
 
Upvote 0

jgr

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Feb 25, 2008
9,692
5,007
✟783,467.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
You are correct.

There is a generation of Israel to come who will each and every single one get saved by receiving Christ and cause Jesus to return!

Remember Jesus' return is based upon Israel saying "Blessed is He who comes in the Name of the Lord."

And God's selection criterion for the "generation of Israel to come who will each and every single one get saved" is Jewish DNA, right?

How many molecules? Is one enough?
 
  • Winner
Reactions: BABerean2
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

BABerean2

Newbie
Supporter
May 21, 2014
20,614
7,484
North Carolina
✟893,665.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married

Paul had to correct Peter for treating the Gentile believers differently than the Jewish believers in the Book of Galatians.
Dr. Michael Brown is guilty of the same thing.

Galatians 3:16-29 clearly reveals that the promise was made to the one seed, rather than the many seeds.
It also reveals that all of those who belong to Christ are those who inherit the Abrahamic promise.

Those who use the term "Replacement Theology", are those most often replacing the one seed, with the many seeds, in Galatians 3:16.


They are replacing the children of the promise, with the children of the flesh, in Romans 9:8.

They are replacing the word "so", with the word "then" in Romans 11:26. I have heard John Hagee, and John MacArthur make this word switch, when quoting the verse. They are corrupting the text.


Dr. Brown is ignoring the fact that throughout Romans 11 Paul makes reference to two different groups of Israelites, one faithful, and one not. This begins in Romans 11:1-5. Paul ends the passage in the same way with two different groups of "they" in Romans 11:28.
There are "they" which are enemies of the Gospel, because they have rejected Christ, and there is another group of "they", who are the election, who have received Christ.



The future land promise is found defined in Hebrews 11:15-16. It is not on this rotten, sin-cursed, world.

The playing field was leveled for all races of people, at Calvary. There is no Plan B of salvation, based on race.


1Ti_1:4 Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do.


Tit_3:9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.

It is interesting that the opening picture of Dr. Brown's video shows Orthodox Jews praying at the wall of Roman Fort Antonia.
They reject Christ's words in Matthew 24:1-2.



.
 
Last edited:
  • Winner
Reactions: jgr
Upvote 0

nolidad

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jan 2, 2006
6,762
1,269
69
onj this planet
✟221,310.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
But is this what you meant by the Covenant being only partially fulfilled? If so, then the New Covenant has been fulfilled in full. It is just that we have to receive it. If not, then explain what you mean.

Remember first and foremost that the New Covenant is made to Israel (the house of Israel and Judah). Gentiles are grafted onto the vine (the place of blessing) as wild olive branches.

Let us look at Paul:

Romans 11
Romans 11 King James Version (KJV)

11 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,

3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.

4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.

5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.

9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:

10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.

11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.

17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.

20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.

24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.

29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.


Israel is gods people whom He foreknew.

Paul says there is still a remnant.

God has given the nation a spirit of slumber and darkness (as He also said in corinthians)
vse 11 is key. the nation has not fallen but merely stumbled!

Vse 15 Israel has been temporarily cast out (for the sake of the gentiles) but also they will be received again . This also is said in the ot when God divorced Israel and said He would remarry them.

vse 25-29 is the declaration that one day the nation will be saved for it is Gods covenant to them.

So while only a remnant are partaking in teh Covenant now- there is coming a day when all Israel will be saved (the last three days of Daniels 70th week) and they will call upon te Lord and jesus will return.

So the major portion of the Covenant is yet to be fulfilled!
Jesus blood is the blood of the covenant but the covenant is still Jeremiah 31. His blood ratified or made the covenant irrevocable!
 
Upvote 0

nolidad

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jan 2, 2006
6,762
1,269
69
onj this planet
✟221,310.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
And God's selection criterion for the "generation of Israel to come who will each and every single one get saved" is Jewish DNA, right?

How many molecules? Is one enough?

Why Don't you bring your sarcastic question to God who made the promise! God won't have a problem knowing the descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob!

Oh but wait! you are one who believes the church is now Israel! So you believe this is the church:

7 What then? Israel ( church)hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.


25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, (the church)

So I think on a human level- you have a bigger issue than whether or not one molecule is enough!
 
Upvote 0

jgr

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Feb 25, 2008
9,692
5,007
✟783,467.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Why Don't you bring your sarcastic question to God who made the promise! God won't have a problem knowing the descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob!

Oh but wait! you are one who believes the church is now Israel! So you believe this is the church:

7 What then? Israel ( church)hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.


25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, (the church)

So I think on a human level- you have a bigger issue than whether or not one molecule is enough!

What makes you think it's sarcastic?

Each day sees an increase in the continually increasing number of individuals whose DNA tests show Jewish ancestry.

Do they all qualify as the "generation of Israel to come who will each and every single one get saved"?

If not, why not?
 
Upvote 0

Contenders Edge

Well-Known Member
Supporter
May 13, 2019
2,615
370
43
Hayfork
✟167,447.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Remember first and foremost that the New Covenant is made to Israel (the house of Israel and Judah). Gentiles are grafted onto the vine (the place of blessing) as wild olive branches.


Actually, the New Covenant was made to the entire world. There are plenty of OT passages that show that God has always had in mind to reconcile all people to Himself yet it was Israel whom He had chosen out of all the people to be made a nation of priests and to be His representative nation to the entire world, using them as a central instrument in that process.

It is just that the New Covenant came to Israel first before it did to anyone else. It was never meant to be confined to Israel but to be taken throughout the entire world. Sadly, the people of Israel rejected the New Covenant but that has not stopped it from being offered to the rest of the world and as Paul has said, God turned to the Gentiles for the purpose of working envy in the people of Israel (Rom. 11:11-12) but, as Paul said, "if the fall of them be the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?"

If the Gentiles have benefited from the blindness of the Jews, then how much more of a benefit will it be to them when the eyes of the Jews are opened.


So while only a remnant are partaking in teh Covenant now- there is coming a day when all Israel will be saved (the last three days of Daniels 70th week) and they will call upon te Lord and jesus will return.

So the major portion of the Covenant is yet to be fulfilled!
Jesus blood is the blood of the covenant but the covenant is still Jeremiah 31. His blood ratified or made the covenant irrevocable!


It appears that what you are saying is that the salvation of Israel is the part of the New Covenant that has not been fulfilled. Even fellow Dispensationalists would take objection to that because it makes it appear as if though you are saying that redemptive work Christ did on the cross has not been made complete. The efficacy of the New Covenant is not affected by who and who does not receive it.

Its redemptive goals were achieved at the cross upon which Christ shed His blood and by His resurrection. The greatest and surest offer of redemption and forgiveness is offered by Christ to any who place their faith in Him and Him alone.

But it is not unfulfilled just because the nation of Israel has not yet come to receive it.
The salvation of Israel centers around their full restoration which will be by their receiving of Christ.
And it is in the salvation of the repentant of the nation, that the nation of Israel is forever preserved.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

jgr

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Feb 25, 2008
9,692
5,007
✟783,467.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Why Don't you bring your sarcastic question to God who made the promise! God won't have a problem knowing the descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob!

Apparently your rabbinic brethren are also demanding to know what you believe only God knows.

Do they have the right?
 
  • Winner
Reactions: BABerean2
Upvote 0

BABerean2

Newbie
Supporter
May 21, 2014
20,614
7,484
North Carolina
✟893,665.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Israel is gods people whom He foreknew.

Paul says there is still a remnant.

God has given the nation a spirit of slumber and darkness (as He also said in corinthians)
vse 11 is key. the nation has not fallen but merely stumbled!

Vse 15 Israel has been temporarily cast out (for the sake of the gentiles) but also they will be received again . This also is said in the ot when God divorced Israel and said He would remarry them.

vse 25-29 is the declaration that one day the nation will be saved for it is Gods covenant to them.

So while only a remnant are partaking in teh Covenant now- there is coming a day when all Israel will be saved (the last three days of Daniels 70th week) and they will call upon te Lord and jesus will return.

So the major portion of the Covenant is yet to be fulfilled!
Jesus blood is the blood of the covenant but the covenant is still Jeremiah 31. His blood ratified or made the covenant irrevocable!

Do you think Paul was confused when he used the word "remnant", instead of "all", in Romans 9:27?


Are you attempting to change the word "so", which is an adverb of manner, into the word "then", which is an adverb of timing, in Romans 11:26? This is a common tactic of Dispensationalists. They ignore the connection between Romans 11:23, and Romans 11:26.
I have heard both John MacArthur and John Hagee say...

"And then all Israel will be saved."

They have corrupted God's Word to make their Two Peoples of God doctrine work.
Are you trying to do the same thing?

Is there a part of the New Covenant which has not yet been fulfilled?
What were Christ's last three words on the cross?


"It is finished." John 19:30


.
 
  • Winner
Reactions: jgr
Upvote 0

nolidad

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jan 2, 2006
6,762
1,269
69
onj this planet
✟221,310.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
What makes you think it's sarcastic?

Each day sees an increase in the continually increasing number of individuals whose DNA tests show Jewish ancestry.

Do they all qualify as the "generation of Israel to come who will each and every single one get saved"?

If not, why not?

Well if they are alive (remember two thirds of all Jews will be killed during the 70th week of Daniel according to Zechariah) once the full number of Gentiles have been added and the veil is removed from Israel, then yes they will! they will be part of the all Israel will be saved who receive
Christ and pray for His return from the city of Petra!
 
Upvote 0

nolidad

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jan 2, 2006
6,762
1,269
69
onj this planet
✟221,310.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Actually, the New Covenant was made to the entire world. There are plenty of OT passages that show that God has always had in mind to reconcile all people to Himself yet it was Israel whom He had chosen out of all the people to be made a nation of priests and to be His representative nation to the entire world, using them as a central instrument in that process.

It is just that the New Covenant came to Israel first before it did to anyone else. It was never meant to be confined to Israel but to be taken throughout the entire world. Sadly, the people of Israel rejected the New Covenant but that has not stopped it from being offered to the rest of the world and as Paul has said, God turned to the Gentiles for the purpose of working envy in the people of Israel (Rom. 11:11-12) but, as Paul said, "if the fall of them be the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?"

If the Gentiles have benefited from the blindness of the Jews, then how much more of a benefit will it be to them when the eyes of the Jews are opened.





It appears that what you are saying is that the salvation of Israel is the part of the New Covenant that has not been fulfilled. Even fellow Dispensationalists would take objection to that because it makes it appear as if though you are saying that redemptive work Christ did on the cross has not been made complete. The efficacy of the New Covenant is not affected by who and who does not receive it.

Its redemptive goals were achieved at the cross upon which Christ shed His blood and by His resurrection. The greatest and surest offer of redemption and forgiveness is offered by Christ to any who place their faith in Him and Him alone.

But it is not unfulfilled just because the nation of Israel has not yet come to receive it.
The salvation of Israel centers around their full restoration which will be by their receiving of Christ.
And it is in the salvation of the repentant of the nation, that the nation of Israel is forever preserved.

I agree that the world of the gentiles was to be partakers of salvation in the NT! For int eh OT unless one became a proselyte there was no hope for gentiles according to Ephesians.

But the New Covenant has not been confirmed to Israel yet! Let us look at the covenant:

31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

This covenant has been confirmed by the shed blood of Messiah, but it has not gone into effect yet! It is for the whole house of Israel and Judah (not to nay gentiles for we were not part of teh old covenant)

Vses 33 and 34 for teh houses of Israel and Judah have yet to go into effect. For now we are in this as Paul wrote:

11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.

17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.

20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.

24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.

29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:

31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.

32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

Israel and Judah are in teh stuble and blindness phase still and have not gone to the restoration phase which is the fulfilment of the New Covenant as written to Israel and Judah. We must remembver we as gentiles are partakers and grafted on -but we are not taker overs of the covenant. It still belongs to all of Israel~!
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

nolidad

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jan 2, 2006
6,762
1,269
69
onj this planet
✟221,310.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Apparently your rabbinic brethren are also demanding to know what you believe only God knows.

Do they have the right?

Well you can look from a human perspective if you wish, but I will leave god to decide who is a physical Jew whom He will fulfill the New Covenant He made with the house of Israel and Judah with! He knows better than any rabbi!

Buyt if you wish to know who is a Jew? He is in the lineage of Abraham and Isaac and Jacob! that is the formula for Jewishness.
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.