The Flat Earth in Buddhist Cosmology

ananda · Oct 19, 2019

Yoder777 said:
It's worth noting that, according to ancient Buddhist cosmology, the earth is flat with Mount Sumeru at the center. I don't think that we should necessarily take everything we read in the sutras at face value. On the other hand, I don't think we should just blindly believe something for being popularly accepted either. I know this might be crazy, but I am open to whatever possible evidence there may be of the earth being flat, especially since I have no dog in the fight over whether it's flat or round.

Flower Ornament Depository 華嚴藏: Buddhism's Flat Earth Cosmology

Two things to keep in mind, if the EU's link is correct: the reference is not from the early suttas, nor even the later sutras. It is rather an abhidhamma text, which is a relatively late development compared to the early suttas (2+ centuries earlier).

awitch · Oct 19, 2019

gordonbennett said:
So the evidence that there are people walking upside down right now, that ships and planes are doing the same is such an obvious fact to you that you can't even be bothered to debate it? It seems you truly are worthy of the award!

I by the way am not a hardline Flat Earther. I'm open to evidence but it has to be the type of evidence which is demonstrable following the scientific method. I feel I have the right to be skeptical when an idea can't be demonstrated properly. Usually,--as I'm sure you know--a hypothesis has to be proved and be shown to be repeatable in order for it to be accepted as a scientific theory (at least, I'm sure that's how it used to be). But this claim that water can bend in the face of everything we know about H20 well, for some reason, it seems that's not necessary to prove because apparently it's a given already! It's apparently a thing so obvious that no one even thinks to question it anymore. What is this evidence you have btw, you don't have to provide it all of course. Just one piece will do. I'll be very open minded about it, I promise! I just want to know if you've looked at it from another angle or whether you're just accepting it on face value. Is it the pics from space by any chance? I'm not saying they aren't real but knowing what we do regarding how governments operate I feel I'm within my rights to be cautious about agencies such as NASA.

Again, we knew the earth wasn’t flat millennia before NASA, but here you go:

Google

if you’re so Open and sincere about finding answers to your line of questioning, why not look up what the scientists say and let us know what you learned?

Robban · Oct 19, 2019

gordonbennett said:
Interesting argument. 'I will not debate you because you question what is generally accepted as fact. Of course, I can't prove my beliefs are true but all the same they are true because everyone says they are, even though no one can demonstrate how they are'. Well done, you've won today's 'I'm a good drone' award. You should be very proud.

If the earth was flat should not then a rainbow be a srtaight line?

IDK, just a thought that came.

dlamberth · Oct 19, 2019

.

Robban · Oct 19, 2019

dlamberth said:
.
View attachment 265270

Nothing new under the sun.

Abraham asked the sun worshipers of his time,

"Where does your god go at a certain time in the evening?"

And the opposite he asked the moon worshipers.

holo · Oct 20, 2019

gordonbennett said:
So the evidence that there are people walking upside down right now, that ships and planes are doing the same is such an obvious fact to you that you can't even be bothered to debate it? It seems you truly are worthy of the award!

The thing is, there's not really "up" or "down" in the universe, just like you can't travel "north" in space.

You've probably played with magnets as a kid. Remember how if you hold the magnet over a paper clip, it floats up? It goes against gravity as we know it, and it's not being propelled by anything. It's simply drawn toward the magnet.

The thing is, everything is magnetic. Just like some magnets are stronger than others, all matter is basically magnetic, but the force is too weak to be perceptible. The Earth, however, is HUGE, and basically round (precisely because of magnetism). When we say "up" and "down" what we're really talking away from the Earth or toward the Earth. Things don't fall "down" per se, they are drawn toward the enormous mass of the Earth.

If you try to think of the universe in terms of "up" and "down" and such, it soon stops making much sense. If the Earth is flat, is the Moon too? If there is up and down in the universe, what is holding Earth, or other planets, up? If something were to fall off the Earth, where would it go? Are they resting on something? Etc etc. So it's not merely a matter of having been told basics about how gravity and planets "work", but you can follow the reasoning and see what makes the most sense. To me, at least, a spherical Earth makes much more sense than a flat one.

coffee4u · Oct 20, 2019

gordonbennett, post: 74390453, member: 423418"]I beg to differ, we've known no such thing. The idea that the earth is a ball is an extreme view because what you are saying is everything can be the right way up and upside down at the same time although we know that to be patently silly. Your only bit of evidence for this nonsense, it seems, is a picture you were told was taken from space. No one can show us how a body of water can bend outside of a container and therefore according to the scientific method means it's not demonstrable (a necessary criteria in the natural sciences, you'll agree). Your view is non-scientific and until you can demonstrate how to get a body of water to bend and stick to a ball is-at best-hypothetical. It's not enough to appeal to authority for your beliefs, you really do need to think about what you're being asked to believe. Then you might understand why the ancients took the view they did.

A container of water is too small and a ball is tiny and has hardly any gravity of its own so the water will never bend and stick, the water is drawn down towards the earth because the earth is huge. Basically huge magnet vs tiny magnet. We can test gravity, drop something and it will fall to the ground, doesn't matter if you throw it up or straight. Jump out of an aeroplane and you will fall towards the earth every time. Nothing magical about it.
If you get on a plane and it only lands for fuel it can fly around the earth so no need to even go into space to prove it either. I was reading that from the latest Concorde we may be able to see the curve of the earth.

Why do you think the earth is flat?

gordonbennett · Oct 20, 2019

Robban said:
If the earth was flat should not then a rainbow be a srtaight line?

IDK, just a thought that came.

Hey, I never thought of that! Maybe it is round after all.

gordonbennett · Oct 20, 2019

holo said:
The thing is, there's not really "up" or "down" in the universe, just like you can't travel "north" in space.

You've probably played with magnets as a kid. Remember how if you hold the magnet over a paper clip, it floats up? It goes against gravity as we know it, and it's not being propelled by anything. It's simply drawn toward the magnet.

The thing is, everything is magnetic. Just like some magnets are stronger than others, all matter is basically magnetic, but the force is too weak to be perceptible. The Earth, however, is HUGE, and basically round (precisely because of magnetism). When we say "up" and "down" what we're really talking away from the Earth or toward the Earth. Things don't fall "down" per se, they are drawn toward the enormous mass of the Earth.

If you try to think of the universe in terms of "up" and "down" and such, it soon stops making much sense. If the Earth is flat, is the Moon too? If there is up and down in the universe, what is holding Earth, or other planets, up? If something were to fall off the Earth, where would it go? Are they resting on something? Etc etc. So it's not merely a matter of having been told basics about how gravity and planets "work", but you can follow the reasoning and see what makes the most sense. To me, at least, a spherical Earth makes much more sense than a flat one.

I didn't mean to send this - it was sent automatically for some reason. I wasn't aware that's how this software worked. I wrote a proper reply elsewhere. Apologies for the inconvenience.

gordonbennett · Oct 20, 2019

Pooh!

gordonbennett · Oct 20, 2019

holo said:
The thing is, there's not really "up" or "down" in the universe, just like you can't travel "north" in space.

You've probably played with magnets as a kid. Remember how if you hold the magnet over a paper clip, it floats up? It goes against gravity as we know it, and it's not being propelled by anything. It's simply drawn toward the magnet.

The thing is, everything is magnetic. Just like some magnets are stronger than others, all matter is basically magnetic, but the force is too weak to be perceptible. The Earth, however, is HUGE, and basically round (precisely because of magnetism). When we say "up" and "down" what we're really talking away from the Earth or toward the Earth. Things don't fall "down" per se, they are drawn toward the enormous mass of the Earth.

If you try to think of the universe in terms of "up" and "down" and such, it soon stops making much sense. If the Earth is flat, is the Moon too? If there is up and down in the universe, what is holding Earth, or other planets, up? If something were to fall off the Earth, where would it go? Are they resting on something? Etc etc. So it's not merely a matter of having been told basics about how gravity and planets "work", but you can follow the reasoning and see what makes the most sense. To me, at least, a spherical Earth makes much more sense than a flat one.

Firstly, thanks for playing. Some people are just no fun when it comes to having their most cherished beliefs questioned.

'The thing is, there's not really "up" or "down" in the universe...'

If I recall, that's just a line from 'What Everyone Should Believe' the book we were all made to read as children. I can see that you've taken it to heart but suffice to say, that doesn't make it true. I'm just wondering whether you've examined this belief or not. Obviously the reasoning appeals to you but that reasoning is all based on the assumption that we live on a ball which when it comes down to it is still only a belief. You can take any belief and make any other notion conform to it if you have a mind to. Does it make it real though? Nope, it just ends up confusing the issue if you ask me.

Now, I do believe in magnetic attraction as I've seen it at work but that's different to the belief that everything is magnetic and being pulled this way and that. You can't just take something like magnetism and assume that it applies to whatever you want. That seems to me to be the opposite of science. A good case in point is the common belief that because the moon is round it follows that our world must be the same shape as well. There's a problem with that sort of logic which will be obvious to you I'm sure.

'If there is up and down in the universe, what is holding Earth, or other planets, up?'

We know as much about that as anything else. Simply because we don't know the answer to questions doesn't give us the right to construct a reality on ideas we have about things. Let's start with what we do know, not what we don't and work from there.

JackRT · Oct 20, 2019

gordonbennett said:
So the evidence that there are people walking upside down right now, that ships and planes are doing the same is such an obvious fact to you that you can't even be bothered to debate it? It seems you truly are worthy of the award!

I by the way am not a hardline Flat Earther. I'm open to evidence but it has to be the type of evidence which is demonstrable following the scientific method. I feel I have the right to be skeptical when an idea can't be demonstrated properly. Usually,--as I'm sure you know--a hypothesis has to be proved and be shown to be repeatable in order for it to be accepted as a scientific theory (at least, I'm sure that's how it used to be). But this claim that water can bend in the face of everything we know about H20 well, for some reason, it seems that's not necessary to prove because apparently it's a given already! It's apparently a thing so obvious that no one even thinks to question it anymore. What is this evidence you have btw, you don't have to provide it all of course. Just one piece will do. I'll be very open minded about it, I promise! I just want to know if you've looked at it from another angle or whether you're just accepting it on face value. Is it the pics from space by any chance? I'm not saying they aren't real but knowing what we do regarding how governments operate I feel I'm within my rights to be cautious about agencies such as NASA.

Are you JacksBratt? You certainly sound like him. If you are, I will simply ignore you because I have previously given you all sorts of evidence that conforms to globular earth.

gordonbennett · Oct 20, 2019

coffee4u said:
A container of water is too small and a ball is tiny and has hardly any gravity of its own so the water will never bend and stick, the water is drawn down towards the earth because the earth is huge. Basically huge magnet vs tiny magnet. We can test gravity, drop something and it will fall to the ground, doesn't matter if you throw it up or straight. Jump out of an aeroplane and you will fall towards the earth every time. Nothing magical about it.
If you get on a plane and it only lands for fuel it can fly around the earth so no need to even go into space to prove it either. I was reading that from the latest Concorde we may be able to see the curve of the earth.

Why do you think the earth is flat?

'A container of water is too small and a ball is tiny and has hardly any gravity of its own so the water will never bend and stick, the water is drawn down towards the earth because the earth is huge.'

So, everything we know about how water behaves changes according to size? Apart, from your obvious assumption that this is a reasonable viewpoint what are you basing it on?

'We can test gravity, drop something and it will fall to the ground, doesn't matter if you throw it up or straight.'

Because something falls to the ground doesn't necessarily mean it's being pulled down by some force. It might just fall down because it's heavier than the air between it and the ground. You say there's nothing magical about it but with respect, your explanation sounds rather fantastic to me.

'If you get on a plane and it only lands for fuel it can fly around the earth so no need to even go into space to prove it either.'

Do you mean fly around the globe?

'Why do you think the earth is flat?'

I don't know what it is tbh. I used to have faith in whatever NASA told me but they've been caught out lying too many times now to the extent I guess I've lost my faith in them. The current rise of interest in FE stems from this lack of faith in the space agencies I reckon. That's just my belief mind you from reading the comments of people on social media.

gordonbennett · Oct 20, 2019

JackRT said:
Are you JacksBratt? You certainly sound like him. If you are, I will simply ignore you because I have previously given you all sorts of evidence that conforms to globular earth.

No, never heard of him. I'd tell you if I was.

JackRT · Oct 20, 2019

If we examine our local universe/solar system there are a number of observations that must be consistently explained:

1. tidal effects on earth

2. moon's near side "locked' to earth

3. phases of the moon

4. retardation of the moon's 'rising'

5. seasons of the earth

6. seasonal 24 hour days and nights in the arctic and antarctic

7. coreolis effects on earth

8. Foucault's pendulum

9. precession of the earth's axis

10. apparent daily rotation of the "fixed stars" about the pole star

11. this rotation being in opposite directions at the two poles

12. motion of the "wandering stars" (planets) including retrograde motion

13. earth-moon centre of gravity orbits

14. eclipses of the sun, moon and planets

15. northern and southern lights

16. meteors, asteroids and comets

17. moons and/or rings around other planets

18. people in the southern hemisphere observe the moon "upside down" relative to those in the northern hemisphere

19. there are certainly other effects that I have missed

There is only one self consistent model/theory that explains all of these observations and that is the present cosmology of a heliocentric solar system. This does not explain why these objects behave as they do, it only provides a very refined model that accounts for all the observed effects.

Now add into this the experimentally verified non-relativistic laws of motion and of gravity, known as Newtonian or classical mechanics, and we now have the why that explains the model in a near perfect manner. It is so successful that it has enabled us to send people into earth and moon orbits, to the moon itself and return to earth. We have been able to navigate probes to all the planets and beyond. People have stood on our moon and observed our planet rotating in front of them in real time. Any other cosmology finds it necessary to suspend known laws of science, hypothesize supernatural intervention and invoke a conspiracy theory extending over centuries involving tens of millions of people a great many of whom are Christian.

In Old Testament times it is certainly true that they regarded the earth as flat in a three tiered universe --- flat with a sky-dome (the firmament) overhead. Just like the rapture theory and the trinity theory, the flat earth worldview is nowhere stated explicitly but it is alluded to in many places. There are also many old testament and even a few new testament stories that are only to be understood in a flat earth context. Generally this flat earth was regarded as circular but we are in places told that it has four corners and is supported by pillars and that there are storehouses for the snow and hail. Of course this seems very primitive to us today but we must remember that these scriptures come out of a far less sophisticated culture. A culture that was deeply suspicious of anything Gentile. It may well be that some of the educated elite were aware of the Greek notion of a spherical world but with an illiteracy rate of about 90% the common people certainly were not. The scriptures were most likely written with the naivety of the common people in mind and used language that would not stretch their credulity too far.

JackRT · Oct 20, 2019

I do admit that there is one thing that classical or Newtonian physics could not explain and that is the precession of the aphelion and perihelion of the orbit of Mercury. But Einstein showed that it is a relativistic effect due to Mercury's exceptionally high orbital speed.

gordonbennett · Oct 20, 2019

JackRT said:
If we examine our local universe/solar system there are a number of observations that must be consistently explained:

1. tidal effects on earth

2. moon's near side "locked' to earth

3. phases of the moon

4. retardation of the moon's 'rising'

5. seasons of the earth

6. seasonal 24 hour days and nights in the arctic and antarctic

7. coreolis effects on earth

8. Foucault's pendulum

9. precession of the earth's axis

10. apparent daily rotation of the "fixed stars" about the pole star

11. this rotation being in opposite directions at the two poles

12. motion of the "wandering stars" (planets) including retrograde motion

13. earth-moon centre of gravity orbits

14. eclipses of the sun, moon and planets

15. northern and southern lights

16. meteors, asteroids and comets

17. moons and/or rings around other planets

18. people in the southern hemisphere observe the moon "upside down" relative to those in the northern hemisphere

19. there are certainly other effects that I have missed

There is only one self consistent model/theory that explains all of these observations and that is the present cosmology of a heliocentric solar system. This does not explain why these objects behave as they do, it only provides a very refined model that accounts for all the observed effects.

Now add into this the experimentally verified non-relativistic laws of motion and of gravity, known as Newtonian or classical mechanics, and we now have the why that explains the model in a near perfect manner. It is so successful that it has enabled us to send people into earth and moon orbits, to the moon itself and return to earth. We have been able to navigate probes to all the planets and beyond. People have stood on our moon and observed our planet rotating in front of them in real time. Any other cosmology finds it necessary to suspend known laws of science, hypothesize supernatural intervention and invoke a conspiracy theory extending over centuries involving tens of millions of people a great many of whom are Christian.

In Old Testament times it is certainly true that they regarded the earth as flat in a three tiered universe --- flat with a sky-dome (the firmament) overhead. Just like the rapture theory and the trinity theory, the flat earth worldview is nowhere stated explicitly but it is alluded to in many places. There are also many old testament and even a few new testament stories that are only to be understood in a flat earth context. Generally this flat earth was regarded as circular but we are in places told that it has four corners and is supported by pillars and that there are storehouses for the snow and hail. Of course this seems very primitive to us today but we must remember that these scriptures come out of a far less sophisticated culture. A culture that was deeply suspicious of anything Gentile. It may well be that some of the educated elite were aware of the Greek notion of a spherical world but with an illiteracy rate of about 90% the common people certainly were not. The scriptures were most likely written with the naivety of the common people in mind and used language that would not stretch their credulity too far.

'There is only one self consistent model/theory that explains all of these observations and that is the present cosmology of a heliocentric solar system.'

Are you sure the Flat Earth model doesn't explain these things just as well if not better? I'll definitely try to go through your list and find out.

JackRT · Oct 20, 2019

gordonbennett said:
Are you sure the Flat Earth model doesn't explain these things just as well if not better? I'll definitely try to go through your list and find out.

Quite sure. A flat earth violates all the observed and experimentally verified laws of physics. The only way to make it work is to invoke magic. For example flat earth theorists are totally unable to explain why observers in say Australia and Canada see the moon as upside down with respect to each other or why they see the nightly rotation of stars as being in opposite directions from each other.

gordonbennett · Oct 20, 2019

'For example flat earth theorists are totally unable to explain why observers in say Australia and Canada see the moon as upside down with respect to each other'

I'd say that was fairly easy to explain. If you were on one side of a room looking up at a picture on the ceiling and a friend was on the other side of the room, your friend is going to see the same picture, only from their point of view they'll be looking at it the other way around.

JackRT · Oct 20, 2019

gordonbennett said:
'For example flat earth theorists are totally unable to explain why observers in say Australia and Canada see the moon as upside down with respect to each other'

I'd say that was fairly easy to explain. If you were on one side of a room looking up at a picture on the ceiling and a friend was on the other side of the room, your friend is going to see the same picture, only from their point of view they'll be looking at it the other way around.

It is embarrassing to admit that mine was not a convincing argument at all. Thank you for pointing that out.

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