Was the holocaust due in part to the Jewish people rejecting Jesus?

LoricaLady · Oct 19, 2019

2PhiloVoid said:
No, not really. The Old Testament writings say that under the most favorable of circumstances Israel is a favored as long as they trust and obey:

Deuteronomy 32:9-11 New King James Version (NKJV)

9 For the Lord’s portion is His people;
Jacob is the place of His inheritance.

10 “He found him in a desert land
And in the wasteland, a howling wilderness;
He encircled him, He instructed him,
He kept him as the apple of His eye.
11 As an eagle stirs up its nest,
Hovers over its young,
Spreading out its wings, taking them up,
Carrying them on its wings, ....

"As long as they trust and obey..." But, again, Moses prophesied they would go after other gods, and the Bible, history and archaeology verify that. Moses prophesied that only a remnant would remain, and that's been seen too.

2PhiloVoid · Oct 19, 2019

LoricaLady said:
And P.S. The curses of Deuteronomy 28 are not about rejecting the Messiah, but about following after other gods in general. Moses did talk of a Prophet to come that the people should listen to, though.
That is why some Pharisees asked John the Immerser, "Are you the Prophet?"

Yes, but that's just the problem. The Israelites, and hence their Jewish descendents, are responsible for observing the WHOLE LAW and because non-Christian Jewish people (emphasis on "non-Christian") continually discount the one very, most important thing that God can do amidst HIS people, they have allowed themselves ever since Jesus said, "I leave you desolate!" to be open to the effects of the curses. If they fail at the most important points, they then fail at ALL of those points and are under the same disciplinary measures that their ancestors were under many times as their history rolled on and bumped into Nebuchadnezzar.

sdowney717 · Oct 19, 2019

AvisG said:
Sure. Possibly not taken literally as history. Possibly not taken literally as having been commanded by God.

Meaning what? You think the Holocaust may have been visited upon the Jews by God as punishment for their having rejected Jesus? The whole notion of Jews as "Jesus killers" permeates history, so I can't say it played no role at all in the rise of Nazism, but it certainly doesn't seem to have been a primary role. (My sister-in-law is violently opposed to Israel in the Palestinian conflict "because the Jews killed Jesus" - and she's not even a Christian!)

What is the current Zeitgeist of the world? Are you talking about the mindless evangelical support for Israel? Even if you aren't, I just finished a wonderfully balanced account of the Israel-Palestinian conflict that makes clear how complex and multi-faceted it is, as well as the reality that there is no clear good guy or bad guy: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07PMT54XF/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_d_asin_title_o04?ie=UTF8&psc=1.

The Jews were Christ killers, just as they have the blood of prophets of the Lord on their hands, they also continually resisted the Holy Spirit. The scripture say this. Jesus himself told them to their faces they wanted to kill Him.

And why did they do that, well Christ tells them plainly they are of the devil and desire to do his will.

Example in John 8
34 Jesus answered them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin. 35 And a slave does not abide in the house forever, but a son abides forever. 36 Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed.

Abraham’s Seed and Satan’s
37 “I know that you are Abraham’s descendants, but you seek to kill Me, because My word has no place in you. 38 I speak what I have seen with My Father, and you do what you have [n]seen with your father.”

39 They answered and said to Him, “Abraham is our father.”

Jesus said to them, “If you were Abraham’s children, you would do the works of Abraham. 40 But now you seek to kill Me, a Man who has told you the truth which I heard from God. Abraham did not do this. 41 You do the deeds of your father.”

Then they said to Him, “We were not born of fornication; we have one Father—God.”

42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me. 43 Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it. 45 But because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me. 46 Which of you convicts Me of sin? And if I tell the truth, why do you not believe Me? 47 He who is of God hears God’s words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God.”

Redwingfan9 · Oct 19, 2019

NothingIsImpossible said:
I'm sure this topic may stir up some but I am simply looking for opinions.

I've seen people before say because Jews had rejected Jesus, it is why bad things seem to happen to them. Thus some people say the holocaust would happen no matter what. What do you think?

I personally don't think it would be fair to say that since God would not punish them for such a thing. They are lost, but still his children. Then again I may be wrong. I do remember hearing that anti-semitism existed before Hitler ever existed. Many Catholic Europeans before Hitler had held Jews responsible for Jesus death. Again, this is what I read. Not saying this part is true or not.

I am still sad to see so many christians of any denomination/view that refuse to support Jews or Israel. Though thats another subject.

Part of the problem with this issue is that it's not like Christians were the ones responsible for the Jewish holocaust. The German national socialists were openly anti-christian, persecuting both papist priests and protestant ministers. Their hatred of Jews had nothing to do with religion but with conspiracy theories about jewish money being responsible for all the problems in Germany.

As for modern Jews, they absolutely hate Jesus Christ just like any other group of heathen unbelievers. Their talmud is absolutely a work of anti-Christian rhetoric. At one point it declares that Jesus is boiling in excrement, to say nothing of routinely calling him a sorcerer. I don't believe this played any significant role in the jewish holocaust though, other than centuries long general dislike of jews.

2PhiloVoid · Oct 19, 2019

AvisG said:
Meaning what? You think the Holocaust may have been visited upon the Jews by God as punishment for their having rejected Jesus?

Yes, and I'm not saying this as some red-neck from the sticks. In fact, the whole Second World War, as well as the first, could be seen as a form of punishment sent from the Lord. Because, let's face it. It wasn't ONLY our fellow Jewish friends who were affected by German aggresions, in either episode.

The whole notion of Jews as "Jesus killers" permeates history, so I can't say it played no role at all in the rise of Nazism, but it certainly doesn't seem to have been a primary role. (My sister-in-law is violently opposed to Israel in the Palestinian conflict "because the Jews killed Jesus" - and she's not even a Christian!)

And as I stated above in another post, I don't think the Holocaust can be said to be justified by an erroneous interpretation of the Scripture. But there is STILL another interpretation that adds some meaning to the whole issue.

What is the current Zeitgeist of the world? Are you talking about the mindless evangelical support for Israel? Even if you aren't, I just finished a wonderfully balanced account of the Israel-Palestinian conflict that makes clear how complex and multi-faceted it is, as well as the reality that there is no clear good guy or bad guy: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07PMT54XF/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_d_asin_title_o04?ie=UTF8&psc=1.

NOPE. I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about what I was already talking about over in the other thread.

And thanks for the book reference. It looks interesting.

Redwingfan9 · Oct 19, 2019

miggles said:
i think it was because hitler was jealous of how jews were able to be successful and non-jews weren't. and the jews owned everything and lived well while non-jews starved in the streets.

The overwhelming majority of jews killed by the national socialists were poor, most were peasants from the east.

JackRT · Oct 19, 2019

I think that anti-Semitism goes right back to
Matthew 27:25 (ASV) 25 And all the people answered and said, His blood be on us, and on our children.

I also have reason to believe that "all the people" never said or did that.

2PhiloVoid · Oct 19, 2019

sdowney717 said:
That is talking about elect Israel, for not all who are Israel are 'of Israel', that is a subtly important teaching, note this chapter. If someone is of Israel, they are then born of God and wont fall under the curse because they are elect according to the promise. And not all Jews were elected according to the promise, the decision remains to God alone..

Romans 9
6 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, 7 nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.” 8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed. 9 For this is the word of promise: “At this time I will come and Sarah shall have a son.”

10 And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac 11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), 12 it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.” 13 As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.”

Israel’s Rejection and God’s Justice
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.” 16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.” 18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.

19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?” 20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?

22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

I'm not even sure that you're sure about what I'm even getting at. So, maybe save the 'heavy' verbiage for later, especially since I think I do have some support for my case.

JohnAshton · Oct 19, 2019

The English have a long history of anti-semitism.

Chaucer's the Pardoner and the Prioress are good examples.

Or Shylock in Shakespeare's "The Merchant of Venice".

timothyu · Oct 19, 2019

There is no distinction. The Jews now and then , just like Gentiles now and then (including Christian) rejected the Kingdom of God for the kingdom of man. Few grasp the concept, especially today..

LoricaLady · Oct 19, 2019

2PhiloVoid said:
Yes, but that's just the problem. The Israelites, and hence their Jewish descendents, are responsible for observing the WHOLE LAW and because non-Christian Jewish people (emphasis on "non-Christian) continually discount the one very, most important thing that God can do amidst HIS people, they they have allowed themselves ever since Jesus said, "I leave you desolate!" to be open to the effects of the curses. If they fail at the most important points, they then fail at ALL of those points and are under the same disciplinary measures that their ancestors were under many times as their history rolled on and bumped into Nebuchadnezzar.

"If they fail at the most important parts they fail in all." Actually, now, the Bible says that if we fail in any part we fail in all.

However Moses did not prophesy curses for his people based on this and that, not even for things like adultery and theft. He was very clear to say they would go after other gods, and not love their Creator, and that they would therefore be cursed.

2PhiloVoid · Oct 19, 2019

JackRT said:
I think that anti-Semitism goes right back to
Matthew 27:25 (ASV) 25 And all the people answered and said, His blood be on us, and on our children.

I also have reason to believe that "all the people" never said or did that.

In my alternative perspective, anti-Semitism is an unfortunate manifestation of the Old Testament Curse; the only way to alleviate that curse is to place faith in the true Messiah and enter into the New Covenant, leaving the Old to the side. When the non-Christian Jewish people then and now have refused to do this, they leave themselves open to the Curse.

joshua 1 9 · Oct 19, 2019

NothingIsImpossible said:
I've seen people before say because Jews had rejected Jesus

I do not know if they do reject Jesus. They just do not profess Jesus and they do not align themselves with people that call themselves Christians. They still can be secret believes in Jesus and they do not talk about it.

2PhiloVoid · Oct 19, 2019

LoricaLady said:
"If they fail at the most important parts they fail in all." Actually, now, the Bible says that if we fail in any part we fail in all.

However Moses did not prophesy curses for his people based on this and that, not even for things like adultery and theft. He was very clear to say they would go after other gods, and not love their Creator, and that they would therefore be cursed.

Shall we READ in full the curses as listed in Leviticus and Deuteronomy among other things present in the entire corpus of the Old Testament literature?

I mean, don't get me wrong. I care about Jewish people and about their positive welfare in this world, and I dislike the philosophies and actions of the Nazi, whether old or new, but the Bible is the Bible and at some point we all need to simply face the fact that God has said what He's said and hasn't been joking about it.

LoricaLady · Oct 19, 2019

2PhiloVoid said:
Shall we READ in full the curses as listed in Leviticus and Deuteronomy among other things present in the entire corpus of the Old Testament literature?

I mean, don't get me wrong. I care about Jewish people and about their positive welfare in this world, and I dislike the philosophies and actions of the Nazi, whether Old or New, but the Bible is the Bible and at some point we all need to simply face the fact that God has said what He's said and hasn't been joking about it.

I am puzzled by your post. I agree always that in the Word the Lord says what He means and means what He says.

JackRT · Oct 19, 2019

2PhiloVoid said:
In my alternative perspective, anti-Semitism is an unfortunate manifestation of the Old Testament Curse; the only way to alleviate that curse is to place faith in the true Messiah and enter into the New Covenant, leaving the Old to the side. When the non-Christian Jewish people then and now have refused to do this, they leave themselves open to the Curse.

Sadly, far FAR too many Christians were willing to step forward to volunteer to be agents of that curse. It would seem that the curse applied to these people as well.

Carl Emerson · Oct 19, 2019

HardHead said:
Is the 'h' meant to be capitalized?

Sorry - error on my part... not fully awake yet down under. I just corrected it.

2PhiloVoid · Oct 19, 2019

LoricaLady said:
I am puzzled by your post. I agree always that in the Word the Lord says what He means and means what He says.

Sorry. I might have needed to rephrase it slightly, but YES, sister LoricaLady, I think you and I are in general agreement. Amen!

Carl Emerson · Oct 19, 2019

I think that more relevant than quoting Deuteronomy, in this case, is the sign of Jonah which was very powerful and directly from the Mouth of Jesus concerning the unrepentant Jews.

Matt 12:
38Then some of the scribes and Pharisees said to Him, “Teacher, we want to see a sign from You.” 39But He answered and said to them, “An evil and adulterous generation craves for a sign; and yet no sign will be given to it but the sign of Jonah the prophet; 40for just as JONAH WAS THREE DAYS AND THREE NIGHTS IN THE BELLY OF THE SEA MONSTER, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. 41“The men of Nineveh will stand up with this generation at the judgment, and will condemn it because they repented at the preaching of Jonah; and behold, something greater than Jonah is here. 42“The Queen of the South will rise up with this generation at the judgment and will condemn it, because she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and behold, something greater than Solomon is here.

43“Now when the unclean spirit goes out of a man, it passes through waterless places seeking rest, and does not find it. 44“Then it says, ‘I will return to my house from which I came’; and when it comes, it finds it unoccupied, swept, and put in order. 45“Then it goes and takes along with it seven other spirits more wicked than itself, and they go in and live there; and the last state of that man becomes worse than the first. That is the way it will also be with this evil generation.”

However this is clearly directed at unrepentant Jews not Jews in general.

dqhall · Oct 19, 2019

JackRT said:
Sadly, far FAR too many Christians were willing to step forward to volunteer to be agents of that curse. It would seem that the curse applied to these people as well.

Hitler and the Nazis did not heed God’s teachings against murder and false accusation. Some Jews followed Jesus Christ the Jew.

Hitler betrayed Jesus. He committed suicide by shooting himself in the head like Judas Iscariot committed suicide after he betrayed Jesus many years earlier.

Was the holocaust due in part to the Jewish people rejecting Jesus?

Was the holocaust due in part to the Jewish people rejecting Jesus?

Yes

No

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