GQ’s New Masculinity

bekkilyn said:

I believe it's very important to analyze these things closely because it's the generalizing that has been used to exclude and do harm to various people, whether based on gender, race, or some other demographic, for centuries. If all we have is guesswork, and then we use that guesswork as 'fact' as has been often done, then we aren't really showing that there are measurable differences outside of physical reproductive purposes.

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I agree that generalizing is and has been problematic. I don't mean generalizing in the sense of taking one feature and extending it over all men and calling it "masculinity." Or, doing the same for all women. I agree that there is no one feature, or even set of features, that we can say applies to all. But, there is another sense of generalizing, which is sometimes referred to as "family resemblance."

Ludwig Wittgenstein coined the term "family resemblance" to refer to generalizations in a different sense. Imagine a portrait of a family of thirty members who obviously look alike. There is no one feature that you can pick out that all of those family members have. You can't say they all have the same nose, or the same lips, or the same cow-lick. Nonetheless, you can tell that they are all obviously related. They are a family, or a "group."

Part of what I was trying to say in post #160 is that I can't get to the exact difference(s) between masculinity or femininity, particularly when it comes to character traits. It's common to say that is because those are simply social constructs, and that may the case. Nonetheless, it is still not obvious to me that there are no differeneces. Are the differences simply physical? You don't seem to want to say that, and I understand why. We are more than our bodies. So, maybe the best we can do is family resemblances.

The new masculinity looks awfully feminine doesn't it?

public hermit said:

I agree that generalizing is and has been problematic. I don't mean generalizing in the sense of taking one feature and extending it over all men and calling it "masculinity." Or, doing the same for all women. I agree that there is no one feature, or even set of features, that we can say applies to all. But, there is another sense of generalizing, which is sometimes referred to as "family resemblance."

Ludwig Wittgenstein coined the term "family resemblance" to refer to generalizations in a different sense. Imagine a portrait of a family of thirty members who obviously look alike. There is no one feature that you can pick out that all of those family members have. You can't say they all have the same nose, or the same lips, or the same cow-lick. Nonetheless, you can tell that they are all obviously related. They are a family, or a "group."

Part of what I was trying to say in post #160 is that I can't get to the exact difference(s) between masculinity or femininity, particularly when it comes to character traits. It's common to say that is because those are simply social constructs, and that may the case. Nonetheless, it is still not obvious to me that there are no differeneces. Are the differences simply physical? You don't seem to want to say that, and I understand why. We are more than our bodies. So, maybe the best we can do is family resemblances.

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I just happen to believe that our differences are on a much more individual level and not based on some imaginary gender category. Yes, there are differences when it comes to character traits and personality, but that's because we are all uniquely created people. I only know what it is like to feel like me, and that "me" is built up of all sorts of traits possessed by both males and females, and I suspect that's the same for everyone in their own unique way.

And while it might not be wrong to say something like, "Men in our culture have trouble expressing their feelings through tears," it would be wrong to say something like "Men don't cry." In other cultures where male tears are not shamed, they don't have this issue, so men having trouble expressing certain feelings is not a character trait of "maleness" but a product of a social environment that discourages men from crying.

Ignatius the Kiwi said:

The new masculinity looks awfully feminine doesn't it?

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Not really if you read the article and ignore the costume.

renniks said:

Men wanting to fix things and women wanting to talk about feelings is not limited to American culture.

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No and those traits are not exclusive to men or women. Culture still is a major determining factor in how we behave in social situations. We are taught from birth that boys are behave one way and girls another. We are told daily what is acceptable based on our gender. Of course these lessons will become an ingrained part of are personality. That doesn't mean it is our natural inclination. It is a societal expectation that we must adhere to if we want social success.

Ana the Ist said:

I know you really aren't the person to ask...

But do you have any idea what that means? We all have relative access to the same feelings. Does it mean men and women feel different things? And how would one know which they feel like?

I mean....I only ever feel like me. I can say I feel like a man, because I am one, but if I was some disembodied brain floating in a vat and couldn't remember my past....how would I know which one I am? Is it possible I've felt like a woman my whole life and just don't know it?

It all rests on the premise that women and men feel fundamentally different in some meaningful and noticeable way. Yet no one seems quite able to describe what that means....and believe me, I've asked.

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Interesting question. Do you believe there are average psychological differences between the genders? Are there moments in your life, no matter how brief where you feel "manly"? Perhaps using your dominate strength to defend a lady?

As far as being a disembodied brain in a vat. Depends on the circumstances. Are you able to communicate with others? I would guess you would still act like your masculine self, but your brain would have no way of contextualizing it. You'd still be expressing yourself the way your mind sees fit, so I'd imagine you'd still be content and at peace with yourself. I would wager a guess that if we were all disembodied brains floating in a vat with no prior memory yet able to communicate with one another that we'd quickly come up with "male" and "female" categories and we'd identify with one or the other. Or both or none, depending on where you are in the gender spectrum.

I believe our physical bodies and psychology are heavily intertwined. The way we look dictates how we're treated by others. Masculinity and femininity in my opinion can be summed down to neoteny. Women on average are more neotenous than men. They retain more childlike traits until adulthood. Including a higher pitched voice and tear ducts that enable for more crying. While men tend to have harsher more authoritative voices, wider shoulders, greater height and more muscle. Gender roles can largely be summed up at as women having a childlike role and men have a more parental role. We've been historically expected to be financially and physically responsible with women. While women have generally been the role of the damsel and victim (something feminism really seems to want to fight.. lol)

Growing up I have been called confusing when it comes to gender expression. Many people saying I act feminine yet other times hyper masculine. Strangely I have not been really bullied for this, I owe this due to being highly noetenous for a man with European origin. Something that really opened my eyes was when I read a post from a man who looked hyper masculine. Over six feet tall, with huge muscles. He said despite liking the attention he received from women he wished he was shorter with less muscle mass. I thought to myself, hmm.. while I hate how my height and low muscle mass hurts my chances in the dating market I am not sure if I would like having his physique in my overall life. I would certainly be treated differently for it, and not in a way that my mind would probably be content with.

Perhaps you would start developing psychological problems if you were to wake up as a woman and start interacting with the world? And have more of a yearning to express yourself as a man?

LaBèlla said:

I assume their partners are bisexual?

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I have no idea. Once read something that bisexuals tends to be hyper masculine. Lol.

You’d need to delve into psycho sexuality. There’s a lot of information shared on Twitter.

~Bella

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Psycho Sexuality? Trans people aren't doing it for a sexual thrill. As far the trans community is concerned they're mostly dominated by feminism. I do not really understand them. You'd think trans people would be the most wanting of there to be psychological gender differences yet most say its a social construct. I've met a few transwomen who thought otherwise, but many of them seem to be socially pressured to change their opinion.

Whatever I guess.. lol.

MehGuy said:

You'd think trans people would be the most wanting of there to be psychological gender differences yet most say its a social construct.

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I have wondered about this very thing. It's counter-intuitive (to me) that a transsexual would argue that it is a construct and not a psychological difference.

comana said:

Not really if you read the article and ignore the costume.

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Are you telling me the costume doesn't look feminine?

Ignatius the Kiwi said:

Are you telling me the costume doesn't look feminine?

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The costume may look dress-like but that is not the point of the article. You are hung up on an art piece instead of the content of the article.

Ignatius the Kiwi said:

Are you telling me the costume doesn't look feminine?

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I thought we had all decided that the costume looked like a portable sleeping bag. It seemed to be the one thing upon which we had all agreed!

public hermit said:

I have wondered about this very thing. It's counter-intuitive (to me) that a transsexual would argue that it is a construct and not a psychological difference.

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I would chalk it up to social pressure. Feminism is larger than the trans community, and they seem to have an aim to sink their claws into whatever progressive outlet pops up. They want everything to be looked at through a feminist lens. Most people are social creatures, and it is not hard to imagine why many would have a tough time not falling into the status quo. Especially when they feel like they're under attack and they need to have each others back.

Ever since I was a little kid, I've always been pretty good at developing independent thoughts. I always wondered why most people seemed to think alike. I think it is because I tend to have less of a need to be social than others. As a kid I was tested heavily for psychological issues and things like autism. A main reason being that ever since I was a baby and toddler I preferred not to have physical contact like hugs and whatnot and liked to be by myself. I've always had quite an easy time being alone. Sleeping and living with no one doesn't bother me. This probably gives me an edge when it comes to thinking on my own. Because I don't feel the social pressures to conform. At least not to the same extent as the average person.

MehGuy said:

I would chalk it up to social pressure. Feminism is larger than the trans community, and they seem to have an aim to sink their claws into whatever progressive outlet pops up. They want everything to be looked at through a feminist lens. Most people are social creatures, and it is not hard to imagine why many would have a tough time not falling into the status quo. Especially when they feel like they're under attack and they need to have each others back.

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I hadn't thought about it that way, but it makes sense. I'm a little surprised there isn't more tension between the feminist community and the male trans community. (Am I saying that right?) If a man decides to be a woman, does this new woman now have all the fussing rights of a feminist? I can't imagine that goes over too well. But, then again, what do I know?

MehGuy said:

I've always had quite an easy time being alone. Sleeping and living with no one doesn't bother me. This probably gives me an edge when it comes to thinking on my own. Because I don't feel the social pressures to conform. At least not to the same extent as the average person.

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I'm kind of jealous. It took me a good many years and a few bad relationships to become content on my own. Social pressure is no joke. The internet has clarified the fact that a good many of us are not always thinking for ourselves, myself included.

bekkilyn said:

And precisely what behavior is this? If you're talking about feelings, then what behavior would you expect to occur in a society where women are encouraged to talk about their feelings and men are discouraged or even punished for it? Remove that factor and you will see men pouring out their feelings left and right such as in the Psalms.

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This is a joke to anyone who has raised kids. We never discouraged our boys from talking about their emotions. They still express them differently than the girls. Pouring out my feelings in Poetry and prose is exactly what I've done all my life as a guy. Some guys are more expressive and cry more, that doesn't make them less masculine. But even emotion is something we as guys want to fix. The emotion is fine if it leads to a solution. If it's just talking or expressing with no result, guys get very frustrated. Seems like women just want to be heard and that's solution enough.

Emmylouwho said:

I disagree with your assessment of the smoldering yellow ensemble. That thing seems like the most practical garment ever! You wouldn’t need anything else. Not even a bed! You could just live in that outfit and sleep wherever you feel like. Just, like, lay yourself down somewhere. You could even keep all your stuff inside of it. With the way housing costs are going, it might well be the way of the future.

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It is very practical, isn't it?

renniks said:

This is a joke to anyone who has raised kids. We never discouraged our boys from talking about their emotions. They still express them differently than the girls. Pouring out my feelings in Poetry and prose is exactly what I've done all my life as a guy. Some guys are more expressive and cry more, that doesn't make them less masculine. But even emotion is something we as guys want to fix. The emotion is fine if it leads to a solution. If it's just talking or expressing with no result, guys get very frustrated. Seems like women just want to be heard and that's solution enough.

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Eh, I know men who ramble on and on, wanting to be heard, and women who want to fix everything too. While I think you are right, that it tends to be the other way, there are still plenty of outliers who, thankfully, find each other!

Outward appearances change with the times. Maybe we should return to the 16th century. When rich and powerful manly men (like Henry VIII) wore tights, robes, elaborately brocaded doublets with skirts, and a codpiece.

public hermit said:

I hadn't thought about it that way, but it makes sense. I'm a little surprised there isn't more tension between the feminist community and the male trans community. (Am I saying that right?) If a man decides to be a woman, does this new woman now have all the fussing rights of a feminist? I can't imagine that goes over too well. But, then again, what do I know?

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There actually is tension between *some* feminist groups and transgender female community to the point where some exclude any woman who wasn't biologically born as a woman, so there is some disagreement there. Personally, I can see both sides. Biological males who "feel like women" and identify as a woman and perhaps get surgery want to be accepted into communities of women as that's where they believe they belong and cannot seem to identify with men.

But at the same time, women who have always been biologically female and who have had to undergo all the misogyny and discrimination since their very birth and then not to mention all the aggravations (and sometimes intense pain) of menstruation every single month for *decades*...experiences that trans-women never had to undergo...creates a separation between the communities.

For me, I identify *biologically* as a woman, but feel more comfortable in mixed communities of males and females (and everything in between). I'm not really all that fond of the all-women/all-men thing and tend to avoid such groups when possible because I just see everyone as people vs. a gender and share various interests with both women and men.

renniks said:

This is a joke to anyone who has raised kids. We never discouraged our boys from talking about their emotions. They still express them differently than the girls. Pouring out my feelings in Poetry and prose is exactly what I've done all my life as a guy. Some guys are more expressive and cry more, that doesn't make them less masculine. But even emotion is something we as guys want to fix. The emotion is fine if it leads to a solution. If it's just talking or expressing with no result, guys get very frustrated. Seems like women just want to be heard and that's solution enough.

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I actually agree with you that crying and expressing emotions doesn't make guys any less masculine (or feminine for those that prefer). What I don't comprehend is what being masculine (or feminine) IS. No one has really been able adequately define it outside of this human being has this body part and this other human being has this other body part.

You may not have had much experience with many women if you think they just want to be heard and not fix things. Lots of people in general are "fixers" (myself included) and I often have to restrain myself with coming up with 10 different solutions when someone comes to me with a problem and really only wants to be listened to. And there are many men who can't seem to keep quiet no matter what...drives the introverts (male and female) absolutely nuts.

Even this morning, I had to put on headphones with music when I stopped for breakfast on the way to my church services and there was a guy in there who when he couldn't find someone in the restaurant to talk to, took out his phone and talked (loudly, mind you) to whoever he put on speaker. Some people just cannot seem to be quiet.

bekkilyn said:

I actually agree with you that crying and expressing emotions doesn't make guys any less masculine (or feminine for those that prefer). What I don't comprehend is what being masculine (or feminine) IS. No one has really been able adequately define it outside of this human being has this body part and this other human being has this other body part.

You may not have had much experience with many women if you think they just want to be heard and not fix things. Lots of people in general are "fixers" (myself included) and I often have to restrain myself with coming up with 10 different solutions when someone comes to me with a problem and really only wants to be listened to. And there are many men who can't seem to keep quiet no matter what...drives the introverts (male and female) absolutely nuts.

Even this morning, I had to put on headphones with music when I stopped for breakfast on the way to my church services and there was a guy in there who when he couldn't find someone in the restaurant to talk to, took out his phone and talked (loudly, mind you) to whoever he put on speaker. Some people just cannot seem to be quiet.

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Of course we are talking about the normal, not the exception. Why are most men fixers?
Why are most women more naturally nurturing? Now, my mom could fix stuff. But she had to, really. She had to learn to be practical because that was what her life demanded. I can be nurturing when I need to, but my wife is so much better at it naturally. If something wasn't generally true, it would not be an issue that constantly needs addressed in relationships.
Why do men behave the way they do? They're wired to be 'emotional fixers'