Does the Holy Spirit give us the power to condemn people?

Ricky M said:

In the NT there are several examples where the apostles condemned people, Ananias and Sapphira come first to mind. Jesus said what He did and more we would do. For those who believe the spiritual gifts are still active, is this power to condemn available to us as well?

My best friend (of 35 years) and I are complete opposites - the most notable him being Jewish and me being Christian; and he gets everything handed to him on a silver platter, while I can't catch a break to save my life. I try to talk to him about Christ, and he's more than willing to corner me with his take on things, but when I try to speak he tunes out, he interrupts, we walks away. One night I was praying for him, asking God why M wouldn't discuss Him with me, God said M was too comfortable. So I prayed ok Lord, make M uncomfortable.

M's job was about to be downsized, so he had been looking for other employment. But the day after that prayer he called with this brilliant idea that had come to him regarding an internet venture. He would run with that instead.

For the next year, M's every effort was stymied, stonewalled, and rendered irrelevant. The golden boy who could do no wrong went wrong at every single step. It was such a traumatic experience, he still refuses to talk about it.

But he was willing, for a while to talk about God. For a couple years. Then comfort set back in.

Leaving out a long story of why, I am apparently supposed to pray for his salvation (above and beyond the usual). I haven't been, but recent events have convinced me to resume. I haven't prayed anything condemning like the last time, at least until now.

After a recent issue exchange with M, the next time I prayed (a few days ago) I felt led to pray that M be humbled. That his arrogance be broken before the Lord. And don't you know it, yesterday he said he was in a situation that was going to force him to have to swallow his pride.

But I think it's going to take more than that to put him on his knees before Jesus.

Test the spirits. We are told, test them. In light of Biblical precedent it passes the smell test to me, but I am wondering what others would think of this.

Do we have a Biblical authority to, under the Holy Spirit's guidance, condemn someone like Paul did Ananias?

Click to expand...

I don't see the Holy Spirit as a condemning spirit. I've always felt love and peace from the Holy Spirit.

Ricky M said:

In the NT there are several examples where the apostles condemned people, Ananias and Sapphira come first to mind. Jesus said what He did and more we would do. For those who believe the spiritual gifts are still active, is this power to condemn available to us as well?

My best friend (of 35 years) and I are complete opposites - the most notable him being Jewish and me being Christian; and he gets everything handed to him on a silver platter, while I can't catch a break to save my life. I try to talk to him about Christ, and he's more than willing to corner me with his take on things, but when I try to speak he tunes out, he interrupts, we walks away. One night I was praying for him, asking God why M wouldn't discuss Him with me, God said M was too comfortable. So I prayed ok Lord, make M uncomfortable.

M's job was about to be downsized, so he had been looking for other employment. But the day after that prayer he called with this brilliant idea that had come to him regarding an internet venture. He would run with that instead.

For the next year, M's every effort was stymied, stonewalled, and rendered irrelevant. The golden boy who could do no wrong went wrong at every single step. It was such a traumatic experience, he still refuses to talk about it.

But he was willing, for a while to talk about God. For a couple years. Then comfort set back in.

Leaving out a long story of why, I am apparently supposed to pray for his salvation (above and beyond the usual). I haven't been, but recent events have convinced me to resume. I haven't prayed anything condemning like the last time, at least until now.

After a recent issue exchange with M, the next time I prayed (a few days ago) I felt led to pray that M be humbled. That his arrogance be broken before the Lord. And don't you know it, yesterday he said he was in a situation that was going to force him to have to swallow his pride.

But I think it's going to take more than that to put him on his knees before Jesus.

Test the spirits. We are told, test them. In light of Biblical precedent it passes the smell test to me, but I am wondering what others would think of this.

Do we have a Biblical authority to, under the Holy Spirit's guidance, condemn someone like Paul did Ananias?

Click to expand...

Look at the other Ananias - word from the Lord about Paul concerning His healing Lays on hands - bingo... (Acts 9)

How do we know Peter was not similarly spoken to about what God was going to do? Jesus could only do what He saw the father doing - so I am of the mind that Peter simply stated what God was doing rather than being empowered to kill.

Behind this is the modern teaching that we have been given the authority to act - this would put us above Jesus who must first see the Father move.

Ricky M said:

In the NT there are several examples where the apostles condemned people, Ananias and Sapphira come first to mind. Jesus said what He did and more we would do. For those who believe the spiritual gifts are still active, is this power to condemn available to us as well?

My best friend (of 35 years) and I are complete opposites - the most notable him being Jewish and me being Christian; and he gets everything handed to him on a silver platter, while I can't catch a break to save my life. I try to talk to him about Christ, and he's more than willing to corner me with his take on things, but when I try to speak he tunes out, he interrupts, we walks away. One night I was praying for him, asking God why M wouldn't discuss Him with me, God said M was too comfortable. So I prayed ok Lord, make M uncomfortable.

M's job was about to be downsized, so he had been looking for other employment. But the day after that prayer he called with this brilliant idea that had come to him regarding an internet venture. He would run with that instead.

For the next year, M's every effort was stymied, stonewalled, and rendered irrelevant. The golden boy who could do no wrong went wrong at every single step. It was such a traumatic experience, he still refuses to talk about it.

But he was willing, for a while to talk about God. For a couple years. Then comfort set back in.

Leaving out a long story of why, I am apparently supposed to pray for his salvation (above and beyond the usual). I haven't been, but recent events have convinced me to resume. I haven't prayed anything condemning like the last time, at least until now.

After a recent issue exchange with M, the next time I prayed (a few days ago) I felt led to pray that M be humbled. That his arrogance be broken before the Lord. And don't you know it, yesterday he said he was in a situation that was going to force him to have to swallow his pride.

But I think it's going to take more than that to put him on his knees before Jesus.

Test the spirits. We are told, test them. In light of Biblical precedent it passes the smell test to me, but I am wondering what others would think of this.

Do we have a Biblical authority to, under the Holy Spirit's guidance, condemn someone like Paul did Ananias?

Click to expand...

I think your heart is in the right place and that you truly love M. Forget judgment and condemnation. Just keep loving him, praying for him, and obedient to the Lord about when to say something and when to be still. God sees the whole situation and has other people crossing M's path. One plants, another waters, but it is God Who gives the increase.

You might pray about introducing videos by Rabbi Jonathan Cahn. He is a learned Jewish Rabbi who came to know Jesus Christ as Lord. He has many books available as well as many videos on youtube.



What business of mine is it to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? God will judge those outside. Eph 5:12-13

"The sudden, dramatic deaths of Ananias and Sapphira served to purify and warn the church. “Great fear seized the whole church” (Acts 5:11). Right away, in the church’s infancy, God made it plain that hypocrisy and dissimulation were not going to be tolerated, and His judgment of Ananias and Sapphira helped guard the church against future pretense. God laid the bodies of Ananias and Sapphira in the path of every hypocrite who would seek to enter the church.

Furthermore, the incident involving Ananias and Sapphira helped to establish the apostles’ authority in the church. The sinners had fallen dead at Peter’s feet. It was Peter who had known of the secret sin and had the authority to pronounce judgment in the church (see Matthew 16:19). If the hypocrisy of Ananias and Sapphira had succeeded in fooling Peter, it would have severely damaged the apostles’ authority."

Why did God kill Ananias and Sapphira for lying? | GotQuestions.org

Ricky M said:

In the NT there are several examples where the apostles condemned people, Ananias and Sapphira come first to mind. Jesus said what He did and more we would do. For those who believe the spiritual gifts are still active, is this power to condemn available to us as well?

My best friend (of 35 years) and I are complete opposites - the most notable him being Jewish and me being Christian; and he gets everything handed to him on a silver platter, while I can't catch a break to save my life. I try to talk to him about Christ, and he's more than willing to corner me with his take on things, but when I try to speak he tunes out, he interrupts, we walks away. One night I was praying for him, asking God why M wouldn't discuss Him with me, God said M was too comfortable. So I prayed ok Lord, make M uncomfortable.

M's job was about to be downsized, so he had been looking for other employment. But the day after that prayer he called with this brilliant idea that had come to him regarding an internet venture. He would run with that instead.

For the next year, M's every effort was stymied, stonewalled, and rendered irrelevant. The golden boy who could do no wrong went wrong at every single step. It was such a traumatic experience, he still refuses to talk about it.

But he was willing, for a while to talk about God. For a couple years. Then comfort set back in.

Leaving out a long story of why, I am apparently supposed to pray for his salvation (above and beyond the usual). I haven't been, but recent events have convinced me to resume. I haven't prayed anything condemning like the last time, at least until now.

After a recent issue exchange with M, the next time I prayed (a few days ago) I felt led to pray that M be humbled. That his arrogance be broken before the Lord. And don't you know it, yesterday he said he was in a situation that was going to force him to have to swallow his pride.

But I think it's going to take more than that to put him on his knees before Jesus.

Test the spirits. We are told, test them. In light of Biblical precedent it passes the smell test to me, but I am wondering what others would think of this.

Do we have a Biblical authority to, under the Holy Spirit's guidance, condemn someone like Paul did Ananias?

Click to expand...

It was Peter who called out Ananias and Sapphira. You need to be 100% certain of the truth and follow the guidelines in the word. We have no business judging unbelievers. We can pray for God to open their eyes to see their sin, but it is also God's goodness that leads people to repentance. Testing the spirit, in my understanding, refers to the spirit of the person. There is only one question. Is that person born again or not?

I knew a man, now with the Lord, who had a gift of a "catalyst". He hardly needed to say a word to expose the true heart of an individual. A catalyst creates a reaction but it is unaffected itself. We sure could do with more of that, but it is an uncomfortable gift to have. You do not win popularity contests.

It's the job of the Holy Spirit to bring conviction. God's means is the gospel. If you preach the gospel, the result will depend on the state of the hearer's heart (parable of the sower). God can and does work in the hearts of people, to make them receptive. Yes, pray as you are led. Do so in fear and trembling, looking to yourself lest you be tempted also.

Ricky M said:

Do we have a Biblical authority to, under the Holy Spirit's guidance, condemn someone like Paul did Ananias?

Click to expand...

(It was Peter...)
I do not believe that Peter called for Ananias' & Sapphira's demise. I believe that he merely explained it. He had an almost similar encounter with Simon, the Sorcerer. He had previously been forgiven for denying Christ, so I am sure that he would have been fine with that if that was what the Holy Spirit wanted to do.

The title of your thread speaks of condemning somebody, but the body of the OP speaks of humbling a proud person (that he might receive Salvation) those two are not the same thing. The latter is an act of God's mercy, not His condemnation.

There IS condemnation in the Gospel,* but it is part of a bad news/good news message. You are doomed, but you don't have to be.

Here is what Jesus said the Holy Spirit will do (from within us),

"And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

• of sin, because they do not believe in Me;
• of righteousness, because I go to My Father and you see Me no more;
• of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged." John 16:8-11 NKJV

*Jonah preached judgment without repentance, yet the Ninevites repented anyway, and God forgave them and retracted His pronounced judgment.

A mother prayed for her son to get sick when he drank alcohol (please don't turn this into a discussion about alcohol). He didnt have a drinking problem. Anyway, he did get sick so she felt it was ok. There are people who pray like this and others even go so far as to pray "whatever it takes."

It just seems so wrong to me. There's so much about the spirit world we dont understand.

But I understand that God revealed what the problem is so I would try to remember to asks Him what He wanted me to do with the information.

Peter was given that information about Ananias and Sapphira by Holy Spirit (Acts 5). Elijah challenged the prophets of ba'al because God told him according to I Kings 18:36. Nathan was sent by God to King David to confront him about his adultery and killing the husband.II Sam 12.

This could be coincidence - I heard about a woman being abused in a marriage relationship.
Sometimes when we hear such things we are deeply troubled and this leads to deeper prayer.
We stopped to immediately pray.
The man was dead in two weeks.

Ricky M said:

In the NT there are several examples where the apostles condemned people, Ananias and Sapphira come first to mind. Jesus said what He did and more we would do. For those who believe the spiritual gifts are still active, is this power to condemn available to us as well?

My best friend (of 35 years) and I are complete opposites - the most notable him being Jewish and me being Christian; and he gets everything handed to him on a silver platter, while I can't catch a break to save my life. I try to talk to him about Christ, and he's more than willing to corner me with his take on things, but when I try to speak he tunes out, he interrupts, we walks away. One night I was praying for him, asking God why M wouldn't discuss Him with me, God said M was too comfortable. So I prayed ok Lord, make M uncomfortable.

M's job was about to be downsized, so he had been looking for other employment. But the day after that prayer he called with this brilliant idea that had come to him regarding an internet venture. He would run with that instead.

For the next year, M's every effort was stymied, stonewalled, and rendered irrelevant. The golden boy who could do no wrong went wrong at every single step. It was such a traumatic experience, he still refuses to talk about it.

But he was willing, for a while to talk about God. For a couple years. Then comfort set back in.

Leaving out a long story of why, I am apparently supposed to pray for his salvation (above and beyond the usual). I haven't been, but recent events have convinced me to resume. I haven't prayed anything condemning like the last time, at least until now.

After a recent issue exchange with M, the next time I prayed (a few days ago) I felt led to pray that M be humbled. That his arrogance be broken before the Lord. And don't you know it, yesterday he said he was in a situation that was going to force him to have to swallow his pride.

But I think it's going to take more than that to put him on his knees before Jesus.

Test the spirits. We are told, test them. In light of Biblical precedent it passes the smell test to me, but I am wondering what others would think of this.

Do we have a Biblical authority to, under the Holy Spirit's guidance, condemn someone like Paul did Ananias?

Click to expand...

Do you harbor resentment towards M? Is this really about M?

We don't judge or condemn people. If anything the Bible calls us to reconcile. The bible says to confront your brother, if he rejects you. Return with another, if he rejects both of you then return with the church. If he rejects you and the church then treat him like a Gentile and a tax collector.

Matthew 18:15-17

Ricky M said:

he gets everything handed to him on a silver platter, while I can't catch a break to save my life.

Click to expand...

Ricky M said:

For the next year, M's every effort was stymied, stonewalled, and rendered irrelevant. The golden boy who could do no wrong went wrong at every single step. It was such a traumatic experience, he still refuses to talk about it.

Click to expand...

Ricky M said:

Leaving out a long story of why, I am apparently supposed to pray for his salvation (above and beyond the usual).

Click to expand...

I understand you're positioning on this because I have been experiencing a like-scenario with a friend of mine that struggles with faith. I would best describe this person as being "Between Two Worlds", my "M" considers Christ too and reaches for Christ but it just doesn't resonate with my "M's" heart like it would a believer. I remember becoming frustrated during the process of reaching out and what I eventually learned during the whole process is that we have to check ourselves to make sure the conditioning of our hearts are healthy, and that our spirits are righteous before we engage the un-churched or de-churched. It's hard to engage those without the Faith, or those in that in between place. It can be taxing, make sure to stay prayed up and keep that heart healthy along the way. Many blessings to you and I hope you are able to breakthrough and your friend discovers his/her need for Christ. God bless.

Melody Suttles said:

I think your heart is in the right place and that you truly love M. Forget judgment and condemnation. Just keep loving him, praying for him, and obedient to the Lord about when to say something and when to be still. God sees the whole situation and has other people crossing M's path. One plants, another waters, but it is God Who gives the increase.

You might pray about introducing videos by Rabbi Jonathan Cahn. He is a learned Jewish Rabbi who came to know Jesus Christ as Lord. He has many books available as well as many videos on youtube.

What business of mine is it to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? God will judge those outside. Eph 5:12-13

"The sudden, dramatic deaths of Ananias and Sapphira served to purify and warn the church. “Great fear seized the whole church” (Acts 5:11). Right away, in the church’s infancy, God made it plain that hypocrisy and dissimulation were not going to be tolerated, and His judgment of Ananias and Sapphira helped guard the church against future pretense. God laid the bodies of Ananias and Sapphira in the path of every hypocrite who would seek to enter the church.

Furthermore, the incident involving Ananias and Sapphira helped to establish the apostles’ authority in the church. The sinners had fallen dead at Peter’s feet. It was Peter who had known of the secret sin and had the authority to pronounce judgment in the church (see Matthew 16:19). If the hypocrisy of Ananias and Sapphira had succeeded in fooling Peter, it would have severely damaged the apostles’ authority."

Why did God kill Ananias and Sapphira for lying? | GotQuestions.org

Click to expand...

That authority was given to the Apostles alone, not to the whole church.

Tertullian makes a point about "thee" in Matthew 16.

"But," you say, "the Church has the power of forgiving sins." This I acknowledge and adjudge [i.e., rule on as a judge would] more. I have the Paraclete [i.e., the Holy Spirit] himself in the persons of the new prophets [the Montanists], saying, "The Church has the power to forgive sins, but I will not do it, lest they commit others in addition." ... I now inquire into your opinion. From what source do you usurp this right to "the Church"? If it is because the Lord said to Peter, "Upon this rock will I build my Church," "To thee have I given the keys of the heavenly kingdom," or "Whatever thou shalt have bound or loosed in earth shall be bound or loosed in the heavens" [Matt. 16:18-19], then you therefore presume that the power of binding and loosing has come down to you; that is, to every church akin to Peter. What sort of man are you, subverting and wholly change the obvious intention of the Lord, who conferred this personally upon Peter? "On thee," he say, "will I build my Church," and "I will give to thee the keys," not to the Church; and, "Whatsoever thou shalt have loosed or bound," not what "they" shall have loosed or bound. For this in addition is what the result teaches: in [Peter] himself the Church was reared; that is, through [Peter] himself; [Peter] himself put the key to use. You see which [key]: "Men of Israel, let what I say sink into your ears. Jesus the Nazarene, a man destined by God for you" and so forth [Acts 2:22ff]. [Peter] himself, therefore, was the first to unbar, in Christ's baptism, the entrance into the heavenly kingdom, in which are loosed the sins that were once bound and those which have been loosed are bound, in accordance with true salvation. He bound Ananias with the bond of death [Acts 5:3-5], and the weak in his feet he absolved from his defect of health [Acts 3:2-7]. Moreover, in that dispute about the observance or non-observance of the Law, Peter was the first of all to be endued with the Spirit ... to say, "And now why are you tempting the Lord concerning the imposition upon the brethren of a yoke which neither we nor our fathers were able to support? But, however, through the grace of Jesus we believe that we shall be saved in the same way as they" [Acts 15:7-11]. This sentence both "loosed" those parts of the law which were abandoned and bound those which were reserved. ("On Fasting" 21)

Hippolytus, AD 220-235
For [the Lord] was himself the perfect Seal, and the Church is the key: "He who opens, and no one shuts and shuts and no one opens" [Rev. 3:7] as John says. And again, he says, "And I saw, on the right hand of him that sat on the throne, a book written within and without, sealed with seven seals. And I saw an angel proclaiming with a loud voice, 'Who is worthy to open the book and to loose its seals?'" and so forth. ("The Interpretation by Hippolytus, bishop of Rome, of the visions of Daniel and Nebuchadnezzar, taken in conjunciton," ch. 20)
Keys of the Kingdom - Quotes

The Church Fathers' Interpretation of the Rock of Matthew 16:18 by William Webster

Ricky M said:

In the NT there are several examples where the apostles condemned people, Ananias and Sapphira come first to mind. Jesus said what He did and more we would do. For those who believe the spiritual gifts are still active, is this power to condemn available to us as well?

My best friend (of 35 years) and I are complete opposites - the most notable him being Jewish and me being Christian; and he gets everything handed to him on a silver platter, while I can't catch a break to save my life. I try to talk to him about Christ, and he's more than willing to corner me with his take on things, but when I try to speak he tunes out, he interrupts, we walks away. One night I was praying for him, asking God why M wouldn't discuss Him with me, God said M was too comfortable. So I prayed ok Lord, make M uncomfortable.

M's job was about to be downsized, so he had been looking for other employment. But the day after that prayer he called with this brilliant idea that had come to him regarding an internet venture. He would run with that instead.

For the next year, M's every effort was stymied, stonewalled, and rendered irrelevant. The golden boy who could do no wrong went wrong at every single step. It was such a traumatic experience, he still refuses to talk about it.

But he was willing, for a while to talk about God. For a couple years. Then comfort set back in.

Leaving out a long story of why, I am apparently supposed to pray for his salvation (above and beyond the usual). I haven't been, but recent events have convinced me to resume. I haven't prayed anything condemning like the last time, at least until now.

After a recent issue exchange with M, the next time I prayed (a few days ago) I felt led to pray that M be humbled. That his arrogance be broken before the Lord. And don't you know it, yesterday he said he was in a situation that was going to force him to have to swallow his pride.

But I think it's going to take more than that to put him on his knees before Jesus.

Test the spirits. We are told, test them. In light of Biblical precedent it passes the smell test to me, but I am wondering what others would think of this.

Do we have a Biblical authority to, under the Holy Spirit's guidance, condemn someone like Paul did Ananias?

Click to expand...

Paul did not have that authority.

Your acquaintance will have to learn how to help others. People sense that and those people succeed. People sense someone is out for themselves and they fail. Your friend is a clear example.

Daniel Marsh said:

That authority was given to the Apostles alone, not to the whole church.

Click to expand...

It was not given the them, either.

Charlie Brown rules

tturt said:

A mother prayed for her son to get sick when he drank alcohol (please don't turn this into a discussion about alcohol). He didnt have a drinking problem. Anyway, he did get sick so she felt it was ok. There are people who pray like this and others even go so far as to pray "whatever it takes."It just seems so wrong to me. There's so much about the spirit world we dont understand.

Click to expand...

The story is wrong. People have no power whatsoever over God's will.
People cannot change the world to work their will.
People can pray and then discover what God has planned though prayer.

I didnt mean to imply that our will is over The Lord's.

There's much about the spirit world we dont understand.

There are many Scriptures about the words we speak such as:
-"A fool's mouth is his destruction, and his lips are the snare of his soul."
-"Death and life are in the power of the tongue: and they that love it shall eat the fruit thereof."
Pro 18

Plus God didnt want Balaam speaking against His people. "God said unto Balaam, Thou shalt not go with them; thou shalt not curse the people: for they are blessed." "...the angel of the Lord said unto Balaam, Go with the men: but only the word that I shall speak unto thee, that thou shalt speak. So Balaam went with the princes of Balak." Num 22

M needs mercy not condemnation. He is walking in a completely ignore place in spiritual things. It is right to pray for him that God would open his eyes and convict him. Otherwise, I don't think condemning is appropriate.