What is so great about Lot?

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MournfulWatcher

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We know that he offered his virgin daughters to rapists. And then had sex with them, resulting in pregnancies. Why did God find him righteous?
Didn't his daughters technically rape him?
 
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Toro

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David, do you have children?
Do you put your child above God?

I dont see what him having a child or not has anything to do with making an idol out of anything or anyone.

Abraham put God above even his own child.... because he knew that ANYTHING or ANYONE that takes first place above God... is an idol.
 
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Swan7

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We know that he offered his virgin daughters to rapists. And then had sex with them, resulting in pregnancies. Why did God find him righteous?

I see you are a Christian Seeker, I hope you are genuine in your search for God. That being said, I cannot change your mind, but I can clarify some things for you, if you are willing to listen.

Lot offered his daughters because he was keeping God's design and will in mind. Rape is never a good thing and God does deal with such in His own way. This historical event is about Lot, not about these sodomites who hate God and his creation.

Lot was righteous in God's sight because he listened to God and followed through to His will and design (creation).
 
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renniks

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How about he was perfectly willing to slaughter his own kid?
Yeah, well, him and God have that in common. It was a fore shadowing of Christ being offered up as a sacrifice for us, so yeah, it was noble. Hard to understand for anyone with a son? You bet. I suspect that when God talked to people in those days it was audible and there was no mistaking what was being said. Otherwise, any parent would find some way around the direct command of God.
 
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renniks

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I think Lot was ultimately considered righteous, not because he always made the best choices, which Abraham didn't either, but because he did follow God's orders and leave the city. Let's get real, all the people who God considered righteous in the OT, messed up. That should be encouraging for those of us who have messed up a Lot too..(oh look, an unintentional pun.)
 
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brinny

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I think Lot was ultimately considered righteous, not because he always made the best choices, which Abraham didn't either, but because he did follow God's orders and leave the city. Let's get real, all the people who God considered righteous in the OT, messed up. That should be encouraging for those of us who have messed up a Lot too..(oh look, an unintentional pun.)
I think Lot was ultimately considered righteous, not because he always made the best choices, which Abraham didn't either, but because he did follow God's orders and leave the city.
That's a good point.

In addition, he didn't look back when he was warned and commanded not to by the angels.
 
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MournfulWatcher

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We know that he offered his virgin daughters to rapists. And then had sex with them, resulting in pregnancies. Why did God find him righteous?
So I just re-read the story; it never claims that Lot was righteous, but that God had mercy on him. Often times the Bible describes what a person did without giving commentary; the scriptures never speak approvingly of Lot's attempt to give his daughters to rapists, it just tells you what happened and moves on.

And Lot WAS raped by his daughters. They got him drunk so that he passed out and then slept with him.
 
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Silverback

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You are greatly assuming things here that are not true. 'We' know is making a statement for others than just yourself. You can only speak from your personal opinion & cannot speak for others. You are making unrighteous JUDGMENTS on a man GOD HIMSELF SAID WAS RIGHTEOUS. Your problem is not with Lot, your problem is with God, making Him out to be a liar & bearing false witness, breaking a commandment of God & being guilty before Him.

You don't seem to understand the cultural reasons in that time era & customs when Job offered his daughters. If you saw the movie about US soldiers being protected by a Muslim host & even fighting the soldiers' enemies, which were Muslim also, risking their own lives, for soldiers not believing in Allah, then you will begin to understand the cultural customs about protecting those under your roof & in your hospitable care. Had you understood this & actually read the account in Genesis 19, you can see this to be true.

All the men, young & old, didn't care about the daughters, they only wanted to have sex with the men. They were desiring violent homosexual rape, which Lot described as 'wicked' & not do so such a thing.

Genesis 19:2-9 My lords, please turn aside into the house of your servant; wash your feet & spend the night. Then you can rise early & go on your way.” "No,” they answered, “we will spend the night in the square.”

3But Lot insisted SO STRONGLY that they followed him into his house. He PREPARED A FEAST FOR THEM & baked UNLEAVENED bread & they ate.

4Before they had gone to bed, all the men of the city of Sodom, BOTH young & old, surrounded the house. They called out to Lot, saying, “Where are the MEN who came to you tonight? Send them out to us so we can have relations with them!”

6Lot went outside to meet them & shut the door behind him. “Please, my brothers,” he pleaded, “don’t do such a WICKED thing! Look, I have two daughters who have never slept with a man. Let me bring them to you & you can do to them whatever you want. But do not do anything to these men, BECAUSE THEY HAVE COME UNDER THE PROTECTION OF MY ROOF.”

9“Get out of the way!” they replied. And they declared, “This one came here as a foreigner & he is already acting like a judge! Now WE WILL TREAT YOU WORSE THAN THEM.” And they pressed in on Lot & moved in to break down the door.

Lot tried to protect them since they had come under his roof. The angels ended up in protecting Lot & his family. God is merciful.

You also bear false witness AGAINST Job by saying he had sex with his daughters. He didn't WILLINGLY have sex with his daughters. He is righteous as God said. His daughters tricked & deceived their father & HE WAS NOT AWARE THAT IT HAPPENED BEING SO DRUNK.

Again IF you had read the TEXT of Scripture, the true God-breathed out words of the LORD, you wouldn't have come to your erroneous conclusions.

Gen 19:31-38 One day the older daughter said to the younger, “Our father is old, & there is no man in the land to SLEEP with us, as is THE CUSTOM over all the earth. Come, let us get our father drunk with wine, so that we can sleep with him & preserve his line.”

33So that night they got their father drunk with wine & the firstborn came & slept with her father; HE WAS NOT AWARE WHEN SHE LAY DOWN NOR WHEN SHE GOT UP.

34The next day the older daughter said to the younger, “Look, I slept with my father last night. Let us get him drunk with wine again tonight, so you can go sleep with him & we can preserve our father’s line.”

35So again that night THEY GOT THEIR FATHER DRUNK with wine & the younger daughter went & slept with him; he was NOT aware when she lay down or when she got up.

36Thus both of Lot’s daughters became pregnant by their father. 37The older daughter gave birth to a son & named him Moab. He is the father of the Moabites of today. The younger daughter also gave birth to a son & she named him Ben-ammi. He is the father of the Ammonites of today.

As we can see Job was not aware of his daughters committing incest & actually raping him while he was incapacitated & unaware. They also were following the pagan customs in which they lived, which had men sleep with women, as opposed to getting married & having children as husband & wife, as God commanded.

If you also see the resultant offspring & the nations they developed into, you will see that the Ammonites were some of the wickedest pagan people at that time.

2 Peter 2:6-9 If He condemned the cities of Sodom & Gomorrah to destruction, reducing them to ashes as an example of what is coming on the ungodly; and delivered righteous Lot, who was oppressed by the filthy conduct of the wicked. Yes, Lot was a righteous man who was tormented in his soul by the wickedness he saw & heard day after day. If all this is true, then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials & to hold the unrighteous for punishment on the day of judgment.

Who were the Ammonites? | GotQuestions.org


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Although homosexuality was probably the main reason God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah, there were other reasons as well, not being their brothers keeper comes to mind, as does crowd violence. Lot was raped by his daughters, it does not seem to be consensual. As far as offering his daughters to the crowd, I don't really have an explanation...it seems sinful to me, it could be as simple as that. However, God has often worked through people who to us would seem like...well... Like a bad choice. For instance:

-Moses was a murderer
-David was an adulterer, and a Murderer
-Paul participated in a conspiracy to snuff out Christianity, and was complicit in the murder of Steven.
-Joseph used his influence with the Pharaoh to manipulate the people on Egypt, to give up all their property to the crown by withholding food during a famine.

That's just what I can think of off the top of my head.

God worked mightily through these men, and accomplished his plan.

What all these men had in common was they were deeply flawed men, who loved God. They also serve as an example for us...that our sin will never separate us from the love of God, and that know one is so far gone that God cannot reach.
 
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grampster

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For all we know God told Lot to speak as he did. There were two angels in his house after all. I'm pretty sure Lot trusted God to deliver him and his family. I would say that Lot had faith in God. God spoke in the OT a bit clearer and more obvious in those days...if you happen to believe the OT texts as many do.

Abraham was willing to offer up his son because he trusted God; Abraham had faith. I'd day Lot probably had faith as well.

His daughters didn't lie with him until after the destruction while living in a cave in the mountains after they left Zoar. That actually had nothing to do with the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. It had to do with the daughters wanting progeny in a rather desolate and desperate place with no one around.

Funny how one can twist scripture to promote a modern day feminist viewpoint by accusing a servant of God as being androcentric. Again, we are not told why Lot offered the daughters other than substitutes for homosexual sodomy attacks. The aforementioned feminist viewpoint is a narrow viewpoint when considering all of the women in the OT and NT who had specific leadership impacts in the service of God. Attempt to OK homosexual behavior as not being sinful by interjection of the "concept" of love between two or more men in this particular case, tends to cast a shadow on whether the bible is considered to be the unchanging Word of God, accurate and meaningful in all languages to all people at all times. The Word of God is clear on that subject no matter what one wants to twist it to say. For if that were not so, what value would it have? The lesson is that we conform ourselves to the Word, not the other way around.
 
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JackRT

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Do you put your child above God?

That is not the point because I know full well that God would never demand that of anyone. A God that would do such a thing would not be deserving of my worship.
 
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bekkilyn

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Concerning the Abraham and Isaac story, God had made a promise to Abraham that his line would be continued and a numerous as the stars in the sky specifically through his son Isaac. Abraham had faith that God would keep his promise despite anything God may require him to do, so he chose to trust.

Also, Isaac wasn't a small child but old enough to carry all the wood for the pyre, which would require him to be near adult-size at the least. Had Isaac not chosen to also trust in God's promise, he could have easily overpowered his father and refused the whole ordeal.

Both of them chose to trust God and it wasn't something forced upon them.

A far cry from people saying that it was perfectly okay and *righteous* for Lot to shove his two virgin daughters out the door into the hands of an angry mob to be raped, beaten, and likely murdered in the process, and God never and not once told Lot to do such a thing. Lot simply could have just said no to to turning over his guests to the mob rather than attempting to bargain with them.
 
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Mathetes66

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"I’m more of a golden rule follower. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. That seems to suffice."

That will not allow you to see or enter the kingdom of heaven because you haven't done that 100%. You have sinned & failed to keep the commandments of God. You are a seeker not a spiritually born again Christian. Unless you are born TWICE in this life, you cannot enter God's kingdom, as Jesus taught. He also taught that unless your repent, you will all likewise perish.

I see you don't believe the Scriptures are God's Word, believing one passage and denying another, as in this thread. You apparently don't believe God spoke what was in the Bible & then divinely had His prophets & apostles & chosen writers of Scripture to write down what God did indeed speak as revelation through the leading & guiding of the Holy Spirit.

God was the one who told Abraham to sacrifice his only son. Doing some study this very site that Abraham chose was the very site for Christ's death on Golgotha. It was an Old Testament picture of God the Father giving His only Son as the substitutionary death in our place, the Righteous One for the unrighteous ones (us), in order to bring about repentance on our part.

If you want to SEEK to understand that picture, read the whole chapter of Genesis 22 and then see Hebrews 11:17-19.

Genesis 22:4ff On the 3RD day Abraham looked up & saw the place in the distance. 5“Stay here with the donkey,” Abraham told HIS SERVANTS. “The boy & I will go over there to worship & then WE WILL RETURN TO YOU.”

6Abraham took the wood for the burnt offering & placed it on his son Isaac. He himself carried the fire & the sacrificial knife & the two of them walked on together. Then Isaac said to his father Abraham, “My father!”

“Here I am, my son,” he replied. “The fire & the wood are here,” said Isaac, “but where is the lamb for the burnt offering?” Abraham answered, “GOD HIMSELF WILL PROVIDE THE LAMB FOR THE BURNT OFFERING, MY SON." And the two walked on together.

9When they arrived at the place God had designated, Abraham built the altar there & arranged the wood. He bound his son Isaac & placed him on the altar, atop the wood. 10Then Abraham reached out his hand & took the knife to slaughter his son.

11Just then, the Angel of the LORD called out to him from heaven, “Abraham, Abraham!” “Here I am,” he replied. “Do not lay a hand on the boy or do anything to him,” said the Angel, “for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your only son from Me.”

13Then Abraham looked up & saw behind him a ram in a thicket, caught by its horns. So he went & took the ram & offered it as a burnt offering IN PLACE OF HIS SON. 14And Abraham called that place The LORD Will Provide..."

15And the Angel of the LORD called to Abraham from heaven a 2nd time, saying, “By Myself I have sworn, declares the LORD, that because you have done this & have not withheld your only son, I will surely bless you & I will multiply your descendants like the stars in the sky & the sand on the seashore. Your descendants will possess the gates of their enemies. And through your offspring all nations of the earth will be blessed, BECAUSE YOU HAVE OBEYED MY VOICE.”

Heb 11:17-19 By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac on the altar. He who had received the promises was ready to offer his one and only son, even though God had told him, “Isaac is the son through whom your descendants will be counted.” He concluded that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead, from which he also received him in a figurative sense.



Each person must recognize as God states in Scripture that each person's sins separate them from a relationship with the living God. There is no remedy for us. Those sins lead to our spiritual death & eventually physical death. We are spiritually dead in our trespasses & sins & in need of a Savior who shed His blood to bring us forgiveness.

If you don't believe you are lost & separated from God because of your sins, you will not see the need for the Savior of the world. You will continue to stubbornly go your own way, rebelling against God & doing what you think is right. You can only come to God on His terms, not yours.

It is what God says is right & you must come to Him as He says is the absolute & only way to be made right with Him: through putting your trust & faith in Jesus Christ. God sees the sincerity of your heart & trust in Christ to save you. Then He makes you spiritually alive and gives you the very life of God and a right relationship with Him. You are no longer lost (as the prodigal son) but have been found by Christ who saves you upon your repentance from going your own way & going Christ's way, confessing Him as Lord & lovingly obeying and following Him now.

Proverbs 14:12 There is a path before each person that seems right, but its end is the way to death.

Romans 3:23 All have sinned and all fall short of the glory of God.

Isaiah 59:1,2 Surely the arm of the LORD is not too short to save, nor His ear too dull to hear. but your iniquities have made a separation between you and your God, and your sins have hidden his face from you so that he does not hear.

James 2:10,11 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it. For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.” If you do not commit adultery, but do commit murder, you have become a lawbreaker.

I was in the same situation, as the Apostle Paul describes me, as well as other lost, unsaved people in Scripture (before I became spiritually born a second time by the Holy Spirit):

Ephesians 2:12,13 Remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.

Romans 10:6-10,17
But the righteousness that is by faith says: “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’ (that is, to bring Christ down) or, ‘Who will descend into the Abyss?’ (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).”

8But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth & in your heart,” that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming: that if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord” & believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with your heart you believe & are justified & with your mouth you confess & are saved. Consequently, faith comes by hearing & hearing by the word of God.
 
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Toro

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That is not the point because I know full well that God would never demand that of anyone. A God that would do such a thing would not be deserving of my worship.
Okay, so you do not worship the God of the Bible?

Because God, DID demand that of one man....

Not only did He give instruction that it be done..... but He actually allowed His own perfect and inncent son to be mocked, tormented and killed..though He spared Isaac... the one He instructed to be sacrificed.

You dont have to agree with the Bible nor with God... but there is also no reason to argue with you either.
 
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