Christianity (In a Nutshell)?

cvanwey · Oct 19, 2019

Swan7 said:
Thanks for the redirect.

Actually, this was me for a time. Growing up in a not-so-grounded Christian home, I also thought for a long time Jesus was just a man and Christ was his last name. I wasn't taught anything about Jesus, just shown by movies who this guy was.
Yet, something was telling me that He was and is no ordinary man.

Okay, so I guess that made you a believer..? My point is IF you did NOT assume this, nothing else matters. (i.e.) Hell, no matter what.

I then posit a return scenario... Say you lived your life the 'best' you could. Even tried to follow the teachings of Jesus, because you agreed with His teachings. However, you considered him a meer mortal, like all other teachers many respect and follow. Would you find it 'just' for Him telling you, after your death... "Well, you did not follow John 3:16-18, so you get to live in discomfort for eternity now..."

Swan7 said:
1. Yes, that is what I was trying to convey in my original response. Belief comes first and is a must.

2. I think I gave an example of that in my previous post.

Morality comes from God, if you read throughout the Bible. We, being made in the image of God, have morality because of Him, our Creator. He gave us the law and spirit of the law - which we have a justice system today, but because of sin it is corrupt on this earth.

Do you reconcile that belief is NOT a choice? And yet, it appears required. And yet, if some humans do not genuinely believe, they stand no chance; which is really no fault of their own...?

cvanwey · Oct 19, 2019

2PhiloVoid said:
I could be wrong, but I thought some "thing" called REPENTANCE------whatever the heck that is------IS also required as one of the elements of having belief and faith in God, Christ and following the work of the Holy Spirit. Where does repentance as a concept play into your synthetic mental exercise here, cvanwey?

I'll answer on one preemptive condition...

Please actually address my critical points there-after...

Here's your answer...

Yes, repentance IS also required. However, repentance only can come (after) belief. Hence, without belief, you are doomed. And as I've demonstrated, such beliefs are not a choice.

That was actually one of my points in a previous post.... Once I believe, I then am in the same boat as millions/billions of others. I can CHOOSE to follow (or) reject Him.

Okay, your turn

2PhiloVoid · Oct 19, 2019

cvanwey said:
I'll answer on one preemptive condition... Please actually address my critical points there-after...

Here's your answer...

Yes, repentance IS also required. However, repentance only can come (after) belief. Hence, without belief, you are doomed. And as I've demonstrated, such beliefs are not a choice.

That was actually one of my points in a previous post.... Once I believe, I then am in the same boat as millions/billions of others. I can CHOOSE to follow (or) reject Him.

Okay, your turn

My turn: I guess you didn't see my post over in that other thread about peanut butter and jelly sandwiches, did you? Oh well. You win. It's all existentially hopeless. Pascal was right about his starting point, I guess. It's just all darkness, all around, never to be sliced away with any blade of light, no matter how many fancy somersaults one might be able to do.

cvanwey · Oct 19, 2019

cloudyday2 said:
Here is a quote from John 16 that seems to say that Jesus is a litmus test to determine whether a person loves the Father or hates the Father.
John 16:3 'And they will do this because they have not known the Father, nor me.'
John 16:9 'concerning sin, because they do not believe in me; '
John 16:27 'for the Father himself loves you, because you have loved me and have believed that I came from the Father.'
Bible Gateway passage: John 16 - Revised Standard Version

My point is that it seems abundantly clear that Jesus thinks it is a sin, not to believe in this historical claim. And yet, Jesus makes no further efforts to at least get all humans up to speed. Meaning, not bothering to rectify His mere existence to everyone. He'd rather leave it to an ancient book of claims, random interventions - told in anecdotal tales, etc. Kind of like alien sightings, or other adjacent claims....

We are talking about eternity here... Should I then believe (every) claimed event happened, just because it was claimed in some 'holy book'? Why this one, and not others? This is a rhetorical question really... I'm not asking for 'proof'. My point is that God seems to pride the concept of 'faith' above and beyond evidence. And yet, many claim to have come to Jesus, bases solely upon evidence, and not faith. But what about the ones who ask for further evidence, and Jesus does not provide it? Such willed belief is not a choice. And God would know this.

cvanwey · Oct 19, 2019

2PhiloVoid said:
My turn: I guess you didn't see my post over in that other thread about peanut butter and jelly sandwiches, did you? Oh well. You win. It's all existentially hopeless. Pascal was right about his starting point, I guess. It's just all darkness, all around, never to be sliced away with any blade of light, no matter how many fancy somersaults one might be able to do.

Thanks for the one sided debate. I guess you have NO response (against) my claim that you cannot will a belief. And yet, this is God's requirement.

I guess you also have no response for the fact that 'sin' does not matter, because everyone 'sins' (believers and non believers), and that is the belief which remains the linchpin of Christianity. And as you acknowledge, by your silence, 'belief' is neither moral nor immoral, but instead amoral. And yet, remains the crucial fact for God...

2PhiloVoid · Oct 19, 2019

cvanwey said:
Thanks for the one sided debate. I guess you have NO response (against) my claim that you cannot will a belief. And yet, this is God's requirement.

I guess you also have no response for the fact that 'sin' does not matter, because everyone 'sins' (believers and non believers), and that is the belief which remains the linchpin of Christianity. And as you acknowledge, by your silence, 'belief' is neither moral nor immoral, but instead amoral. And yet, remains the crucial fact for God...

No, I have some responses, but I'm not confident that you won't just bat them away like usual. Sorry. You've set a precedent that I can't very well navigate as I attempt to use my trolling motor in certain waters. So, like I said. You win.

cvanwey · Oct 19, 2019

2PhiloVoid said:
No, I have some responses, but I'm not confident that you won't just bat them away like usual. Sorry. You've set a precedent that I can't very well navigate as I attempt to use my trolling motor in certain waters. So, like I said. You win.

You had plenty of chances to address my basic points. You made no attempt. I'll take the victory, not because you refuse to provide a response, but instead because you know and agree:

1. You cannot will a belief.
2. And yet, God's requirement hinges upon an attribute humans cannot control.
3. The concept of sin is irrelevant, because a murderer can come to Jesus earnestly, while a non-murder can not believe in a postmortem Jesus; and the murderer has a fighting chance, while the non-murderer has absolutely no chance.

Halbhh · Oct 19, 2019

Cvanwey, you'd be better off to read through the gospels accounts again, say at least Luke and John (or all 4) -- since how could you know what anyone here has gotten right unless you get what we are saying in that more full and convincing context. (yes, I could just answer individual pieces you ask about, as I did already on some things above, but....is that sufficient? Probably not! I think you'd be better off seeing these answers yourself in full context of an entire full gospel). You'd learn why most Christians believe we can indeed make choices that matter regarding our relationship with God, such as for example to try to hear the real message, a real listening.

Reading with an aim to notice things not seen already, something that anyone should do, and I recommend generally even to those having read them twice or more times.

The aim is to not seek to just see what you prefer, nor even only to just answer 1 or 2 questions (though that's an ok goal), but something a lot better: to notice what wasn't yet noticed, and get the real big picture in a more full way.

cvanwey said:
You had plenty of chances to address my basic points. You made no attempt. I'll take the victory, not because you refuse to provide a response, but instead because you know and agree:

1. You cannot will a belief.
2. And yet, God's requirement hinges upon an attribute humans cannot control.
3. The concept of sin is irrelevant, because a murderer can come to Jesus earnestly, while a non-murder can not believe in a postmortem Jesus; and the murderer has a fighting chance, while the non-murderer has absolutely no chance.

cvanwey · Oct 19, 2019

Halbhh said:
Cvanwey, you'd be better off to read through the gospels accounts again, say at least Luke and John (or all 4) -- since how could you know what anyone here has gotten right unless you get what we are saying in that more full and convincing context. (yes, I could just answer individual pieces you ask about, as I did already on some things above, but....is that sufficient? Probably not! I think you'd be better off seeing these answers yourself in full context of an entire full gospel). You'd learn why most Christians believe we can indeed make choices that matter regarding our relationship with God, such as for example to try to hear the real message, a real listening.

Reading with an aim to notice things not seen already, something that anyone should do, and I recommend generally even to those having read them twice or more times.

The aim is to not seek to just see what you prefer, nor even only to just answer 1 or 2 questions (though that's an ok goal), but something a lot better: to notice what wasn't yet noticed, and get the real big picture in a more full way.

With all due respect, I don't see how your request is relevant. More below, but first...

My points are:

1. You cannot will this type of a belief. I assume you would agree with this claim? If not, please demonstrate.

2. Without belief in this specific set of claims, you have absolutely no chance of entering God's kingdom, if it were actually true. You would instead be condemned. I would assume you agree with this claimed result as well? If not, please demonstrate as needed.

3. Belief is neither a choice, NOR does it appear to encompass any type of moral application. And yet, this seems to be God's absolute minimal requirements for admittance to His kingdom. If you do not agree, please provide evidence to the contrary.

Now getting back to why your request appears irrelevant... If you agree with the above, then what does re-reading Scripture solve? If you do not agree with these assessments, please point out the verses which conflict with these above assessments. But mind you, in doing so, they may also conflict with John 3:16-18.

In conclusion, assuming you at least agree with God's stated claims above, it appears the concept of 'sin' is irrelevant. Why? As I just stated to @2PhiloVoid , a murderer, who later asks for repentance, because he now believes, has a chance to enter heaven. A non-murderer, whom continues to doubt the claim of a resurrection until natural death, has absolutely NO chance to enter heaven. Again, if you disagree, please re-read not all 4 Gospels, but just simply look at John 3:16-18 - (arguably the most popular quoted verses from the Bible).

Thus, my request to you still stands..... In accordance with the many verses regarding prayer, please pray for God to reveal His postmortem existence to me. I will then have the CHOICE to consider to either follow his asserted words, or reject them. Because, I would at least now KNOW HE is for real, and not instead just a character, mixed in with a book of supernatural claims.

Thank you

2PhiloVoid · Oct 19, 2019

cvanwey said:
With all due respect, I don't see how your request is relevant. More below, but first...

My points are:

1. You cannot will this type of a belief. I assume you would agree with this claim? If not, please demonstrate.

2. Without belief in this specific set of claims, you have absolutely no chance of entering God's kingdom, if it were actually true. You would instead be condemned. I would assume you agree with this claimed result as well? If not, please demonstrate as needed.

3. Belief is neither a choice, NOR does it appear to encompass any type of moral application. And yet, this seems to be God's absolute minimal requirements for admittance to His kingdom. If you do not agree, please provide evidence to the contrary.

Now getting back to why your request appears irrelevant... If you agree with the above, then what does re-reading Scripture solve? If you do not agree with these assessments, please point out the verses which conflict with these above assessments. But mind you, in doing so, they may also conflict with John 3:16-18.

In conclusion, assuming you at least agree with God's stated claims above, it appears the concept of 'sin' is irrelevant. Why? As I just stated to @2PhiloVoid , a murderer, who later asks for repentance, because he now believes, has a chance to enter heaven. A non-murderer, whom continues to doubt the claim of a resurrection until natural death, has absolutely NO chance to enter heaven. Again, if you disagree, please re-read not all 4 Gospels, but just simply look at John 3:16-18 - (arguably the most popular quoted verses from the Bible).

Thus, my request to you still stands..... In accordance with the many verses regarding prayer, please pray for God to reveal His postmortem existence to me. I will then have the CHOICE to consider to either follow his asserted words, or reject them. Because, I would at least now KNOW HE is for real, and not instead just a character, mixed in with a book of supernatural claims.

Thank you

I'll pray for you. Everyone out there who is a person of prayer, let's pray for cvanwey. No, seriously.

Swan7 · Oct 19, 2019

cvanwey said:
Okay, so I guess that made you a believer..? My point is IF you did NOT assume this, nothing else matters. (i.e.) Hell, no matter what.

I then posit a return scenario... Say you lived your life the 'best' you could. Even tried to follow the teachings of Jesus, because you agreed with His teachings. However, you considered him a meer mortal, like all other teachers many respect and follow. Would you find it 'just' for Him telling you, after your death... "Well, you did not follow John 3:16-18, so you get to live in discomfort for eternity now..."

What made me be a believer is by choice. I chose to give God a shot and I surrendered all my life to Him. If you read through the New Testament it is also shown there that belief is by choice.

cvanwey said:
Do you reconcile that belief is NOT a choice? And yet, it appears required. And yet, if some humans do not genuinely believe, they stand no chance; which is really no fault of their own...?

If belief was not a choice then Christians would be nothing but perfect robots and we wouldn't need God.
What do you mean by "no fault of their own"? Everyone has a choice and by that choice they choose life or death. Everyday people make that choice of their own free will.

Halbhh · Oct 19, 2019

cvanwey said:
1. You cannot will this type of a belief. I assume you would agree with this claim? If not, please demonstrate.

Well, we read a definitely required step for that faith, and therefore also for finding God, in our day:

Romans 10:17 Consequently, faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.

So, it's about listening, and therefore just as I suggested above is the way that can succeed.

Now listening...is humble. But that's required of us:

Psalm 138:6; Proverbs 3:34; Proverbs 29:23; Matthew 23:12; Luke 1:52; James 4:6; 1 Peter 5:5

"God gives grace to the humble, but resists the proud."

So, that's a clearly stated requirement, and it's also a choice. With humbleness, one can truly listen. With real listening, one can begin to hear in a real way. Then it's Romans 10:17.

So, it is indeed through choices you can make.

cvanwey · Oct 19, 2019

2PhiloVoid said:
I'll pray for you. Everyone who out there who is a person of prayer, let's pray for cvanwey. No, seriously.

Thank you. Be me being unselfish, why not just instead pray for everyone, whom does not believe these events actually happened, as claimed in history? Being this IS the linchpin between the beginnings of acceptance to heaven, or not; seems as though All Christians might deem it necessary to pray for all non-believers, doubters, atheists, skeptics, etc, to receive some sort of 'concrete' evidence of this specific God's mere existence. Right?

Thus, I would already assume this has happened. Which begs a question, since many still doubt, why is such prayer failing? Again, the knowledge of His existence has virtually nothing to do with 'pride'. Heck, satan has nothing but pride. But he at least acknowledges that God's existence is real.

I, on the other hand, doubt both God and satan's existence. I have not received sufficient evidence to either of their mere existence(s). And again, it has nothing to do with pride, denial - (which would mean I really did believe but am lying about it), or other...

If prayer was demonstrated to work, I'd ask God, why does @2PhiloVoid not acknowledge my basic observations? (i.e.) post #67

cvanwey · Oct 19, 2019

Swan7 said:
What made me be a believer is by choice. I chose to give God a shot and I surrendered all my life to Him. If you read through the New Testament it is also shown there that belief is by choice.

Let's clear something up real fast... You do have the choice to try and believe in something like Yahweh, Xenu, Thor, Apollo, other... However, whether you actually believe it or not, is not a choice. I will demonstrate in your last response, by simply replacing a couple of words in brackets.

"What made me be a believer is by choice. I chose to give (Xenu) a shot and I surrendered all my life to Him. If you read through the (Sacred Scripture) it is also shown there that belief is by choice."

I can choose to try and believe in Xenu. But unless I receive some type of convincing evidence, I won't actually believe. You cannot will a belief. If you can, 'will' yourself to think you can fly, believe in Xenu, or that you are the richest person on the planet. Again, yes, you can choose to try and believe it, but you won't unless you are either delusional, and/or receive evidence to confirm your wanting to believe, or other related necessary factors necessary for belief.

You believe because something 'clicked' with you, to believe it to be true. In my case, nothing has 'clicked'. And according to Scripture, I'm doomed if I'm incorrect. Seems 'unjust', from a human perspective anyways....

Swan7 said:
If belief was not a choice then Christians would be nothing but perfect robots and we wouldn't need God.

False! Satan believes He exists, and he is certainly not a robot, is he? You can choose whether or not to follow Him or not. Satan made His choice, didn't he?

Swan7 said:
What do you mean by "no fault of their own"?

Belief is not choice, see above. Hence, belief/unbelief is out of the human's control. However, God can control the necessary evidence He knows is required for this human to then believe. And if He chooses not to provide it, who's fault is it? Not the human's...

Swan7 said:
Everyone has a choice and by that choice they choose life or death. Everyday people make that choice of their own free will.

Again, you can choose an action, but not a belief. Again, you can choose to try and believe something. But you either do or don't, and it's not based upon a choice. See above for details.

cvanwey · Oct 19, 2019

Halbhh said:
Well, we read a definitely required step for that faith, and therefore also for finding God, in our day:

Romans 10:17 Consequently, faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.

So, it's about listening, and therefore just as I suggested above is the way that can succeed.

Now listening...is humble. But that's required of us:

Psalm 138:6; Proverbs 3:34; Proverbs 29:23; Matthew 23:12; Luke 1:52; James 4:6; 1 Peter 5:5

"God gives grace to the humble, but resists the proud."

So, that's a clearly stated requirement, and it's also a choice. With humbleness, one can truly listen. With real listening, one can begin to hear in a real way. Then it's Romans 10:17.

So, it is indeed through choices you can make.

Example:

No amount of 'humility', or lack there-of, would get me to decline the fact that Trump became president. I have NO CHOICE but to reconcile he is our current president. But I DO have the choice to abide by him or not, right? (i.e.) I could move out of the country...

Please try again sir. Knowledge of His existence has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not someone is humble; as simply demonstrated above.

You have not answered any of my questions. I will repeat them. Please actually address post #69 this time.

Thank you

2PhiloVoid · Oct 19, 2019

cvanwey said:
Thank you. Be me being unselfish, why not just instead pray for everyone, whom does not believe these events actually happened, as claimed in history? Being this IS the linchpin between the beginnings of acceptance to heaven, or not; seems as though All Christians might deem it necessary to pray for all non-believers, doubters, atheists, skeptics, etc, to receive some sort of 'concrete' evidence of this specific God's mere existence. Right?

Right. But maybe, just a tweak even, realize that maybe I do pray for many people and have often done so in the past and present. It's just not something for which I've ever felt I had to provide an itemized audit report.

Thus, I would already assume this has happened. Which begs a question, since many still doubt, why is such prayer failing? Again, the knowledge of His existence has virtually nothing to do with 'pride'. Heck, satan has nothing but pride. But he at least acknowledges that God's existence is real.

I, on the other hand, doubt both God and satan's existence. I have not received sufficient evidence to either of their mere existence(s). And again, it has nothing to do with pride, denial - (which would mean I really did believe but am lying about it), or other...

If prayer was demonstrated to work, I'd ask God, why does @2PhiloVoid not acknowledge my basic observations? (i.e.) post #67

More questions, ay? Great! I like how you just keep adding more logs to the fire, and your doing so just keeps everything so warm and cozy around here, which is important since Fall and Winter are right around the corner I suppose we can never get too much of that kind of thing to maintain our warm-fuzzies.

cvanwey · Oct 19, 2019

2PhiloVoid said:
Right. But maybe, just a tweak even, realize that maybe I do pray for many people and have often done so in the past and present. It's just not something for which I've ever felt I had to provide an itemized audit report.

More questions, ay? Great! I like how you just keep adding more logs to the fire, and your doing so just keeps everything so warm and cozy around here, which is important since Fall and Winter are right around the corner I suppose we can never get too much of that kind of thing to maintain our warm-fuzzies.

I answered your last question. You asked if repentance is required? I stated it was. But that repentance would only be logically possible AFTER you already believe.

It would not matter what questions I ask you, because when you feel you have to concede the point(s), you ignore the question(s), and instead attempt to deliver an insult.

My questions are a natural progressions of the thread... But what does it matter? You really don't attempt to answer any of them anyways; not the ones that count anyways. And people here see that....

Please continue with your 'responses'. Though, they do not offer much of anything in the way of productivity.

Thus, if you wish to actually engage, please address my points to you, in post #67. If you can't, then you are merely ranting...

2PhiloVoid · Oct 19, 2019

cvanwey said:
I answered your last question. You asked if repentance is required? I stated it was. But that repentance would only be logically possible AFTER you already believe.

It would not matter what questions I ask you, because when you feel you have to concede the point(s), you ignore the question(s), and instead attempt to deliver an insult.

What you take for insult, I take for an aside and an insinuated reprimand. The problem is that you're wrong about a whole lot of things, but like some of your compatriots here, you basically come into this forum and process to repeatedly initiate a lambasting of the Christian religion, covered with a nasty set of insinuation that, apparently to you, are just so obvious.

My questions are a natural progressions of the thread... But what does it matter? You really don't attempt to answer any of them anyways; not the ones that count anyways. And people here see that....

Do they, cvanwey? Do they really? I'm just waiting for the floodgates to open on that one. In the meantime. And no, your questions do not in any way represent "a natural progression" of healthy, ongoing discussion.

Please continue with your 'responses'. Though, they do not offer much of anything in the way of productivity.

Dude........................................I'm just going to continue to pray for you. That's all you leave me to do since you don't REALLY want to talk.

Thus, if you wish to actually engage, please address my points to you, in post #67. If you can't, then you are merely ranting...

When are you going to realize that if your points are, from the get go, not cogent or coherent, they're NOT POINTS.

Swan7 · Oct 19, 2019

cvanwey said:
Let's clear something up real fast... You do have the choice to try and believe in something like Yahweh, Xenu, Thor, Apollo, other... However, whether you actually believe it or not, is not a choice. I will demonstrate in your last response, by simply replacing a couple of words in brackets.

"What made me be a believer is by choice. I chose to give (Xenu) a shot and I surrendered all my life to Him. If you read through the (Sacred Scripture) it is also shown there that belief is by choice."

I can choose to try and believe in Xenu. But unless I receive some type of convincing evidence, I won't actually believe. You cannot will a belief. If you can, 'will' yourself to think you can fly, believe in Xenu, or that you are the richest person on the planet. Again, yes, you can choose to try and believe it, but you won't unless you are either delusional, and/or receive evidence to confirm your wanting to believe, or other related necessary factors necessary for belief.

You believe because something 'clicked' with you, to believe it to be true. In my case, nothing has 'clicked'. And according to Scripture, I'm doomed if I'm incorrect. Seems 'unjust', from a human perspective anyways....

False! Satan believes He exists, and he is certainly not a robot, is he? You can choose whether or not to follow Him or not. Satan made His choice, didn't he?

Belief is not choice, see above. Hence, belief/unbelief is out of the human's control. However, God can control the necessary evidence He knows is required for this human to then believe. And if He chooses not to provide it, who's fault is it? Not the human's...

Again, you can choose an action, but not a belief. Again, you can choose to try and believe something. But you either do or don't, and it's not based upon a choice. See above for details.

This ends now. You are twisting what I have said to fit your narrative and you are unwilling to listen and VERY unwilling to consider what I've said since you pose a question to us - believers.

This is NOT how apologetics work. You want to have a real apologetics event, you should really read Paul's letters. He is a good example of what real apologetics is.

Keep going around in circles if you want, but I am not playing a game.

cvanwey · Oct 19, 2019

2PhiloVoid said:
What you take for insult, I take for an aside and an insinuated reprimand. The problem is that you're wrong about a whole lot of things, but like some of your compatriots here, you basically come into this forum and process to repeatedly initiate a lambasting of the Christian religion, covered with a nasty set of insinuation that, apparently to you, are just so obvious.

Um, what part of....

"Christian Apologetics

A forum for non-Christians to challenge the Christian faith, and for Christians to defend their faith"

...do you not quite understand or get?

And yes, I assert my points about Christianity, in a nutshell, are obvious. Otherwise, you would have 'schooled' me otherwise already. Instead, you ignore, evade, dodge, avoid, cut on, and/or make excuses. And all this (after) you stated you were no longer going to continue with this topic thread (i.e.) post #34.

2PhiloVoid said:
Do they, cvanwey? Do they really? I'm just waiting for the floodgates to open on that one. In the meantime. And no, your questions do not in any way represent "a natural progression" of healthy, ongoing discussion.

'healthy'? My questions are in earnest. What could be any 'healthier'? What I find 'unhealthy', is your continued avoidance in the obvious, i.e. post #67. Just acknowledge these basic observations, and we can be done here, in this thread....

2PhiloVoid said:
Dude........................................I'm just going to continue to pray for you. That's all you leave me to do since you don't REALLY want to talk.

And as I already told you repeatedly, if prayer works, then pray for God to provide me with evidence of His mere existence. I can then make the (choice) of whether or not to repent.

2PhiloVoid said:
When are you going to realize that if your points are, from the get go, not cogent or coherent, they're NOT POINTS.

The second you demonstrate how post #67 is not 'cogent' or 'coherent'.

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