Is salvation by grace alone? Or faith alone? Or grace through faith? or by faith plus repentance?

Good Day,

“By grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God”

Formal cause is Grace, where as the instrumental cause is Faith.

Ligonier Ministries

In Him.

Bill

BBAS 64 said:

Good Day,

“By grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God”

Formal cause is Grace, where as the instrumental cause is Faith.

Ligonier Ministries

In Him.

Bill

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And God's grace teaches us to deny ungodliness, and that we should live righteously and godly in this present world (Titus 2:11-12). God's grace is not a license for immorality (Jude 1:4).

gradyll said:

Bible Highlighter believes we are saved by works. Which negates grace. The law of non contradiction rules that two contradicting ideas cannot both be true. So if it is works it can't be grace. But I do believe repentance is required at salvation but it is granted not worked for. Also this poster believes that whenever it says we are saved by faith not of works it is only in relation to circumsicion salvation. And does not apply to all merit. Which is easily refuted. And done in this thread several times, just search this thread for gradyll posts to see my other posts. This verse I read today refutes the idea that the law was only about circumsision. The law is any meal we perform to save, secondly any command of God. It depends on what the message of passage is. Here is a verse that says the law is for all sinners not just the uncircumsized...

knowing this: that the law is not made for a righteous person, but for the lawless and insubordinate, for the ungodly and for sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, for fornicators, for sodomites, for kidnappers, for liars, for perjurers, and if there is any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine,
I Timothy 1:9‭-‬10 NKJV
I Timothy 1:9-10 knowing this: that the law is not made for a righteous person, but for the lawless and insubordinate, for the ungodly and for sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderer | New King James Version (NKJV) | Download The Bible App Now

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I can imagine two types of Jews on the Passover night in Egypt.

Some put their trust in the lamb blood, and just relax and enjoy the night, confident that it is sufficient.

Other Jews are more paranoid and try to help the blood with their works, praying fasting singing non stop to God.

In the end both houses first born are still saved because the blood at their doorpost is sufficient.

That is how I view this never ending argument about faith alone or faith and works for salvation.

gradyll said:

I personally don't see another idea that is further from the gospel.

In relation to your illustration, believing we are saved by works, is not believing in Jesus finished work. So technically it is not putting the blood of the lamb on the door post at all.

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The motivation behind that thinking is "I have believe in Jesus death burial and resurrection for my justification. But I like to do good works just in case they are also needed, or I truly believe they are also needed".

Either way, you are still saved. God has shown, in the parable of the Prodigal Son, that we can accept him for the wrong reasons, and he will still embrace and love us. That is the awesome love of our God.

gradyll said:

Bible Highlighter believes we are saved by works. Which negates grace. The law of non contradiction rules that two contradicting ideas cannot both be true. So if it is works it can't be grace.

Click to expand...

You are referring to Romans 11:6 that says,


This verse is not referring to the Christian, but it is referring to Israel, and in their rejection of the Messiah, and how that led to the inclusion of the Gentiles and it will make the Jews jealous. One day Israel will come back to the Lord and accept their true Messiah (Jesus). The Jews focused heavily on obedience to the Law and they de-emphasized God's grace. We can see this in the Parable of the Tax Collector and the Pharisee (See: Luke 18:9-14). For the Pharisee was not humbling himself in getting his heart right with the LORD by seeking forgiveness of his sins and he was making it all about one's actions alone (without God's grace).

This is the same argument that Paul is making against the Jews. Paul is trying to say that the Jews cannot be saved by the Law of Moses alone (the 613 laws of the Torah) (Law Alone Salvationism under the Old Law) without God's grace. The Jews were making the Torah Law the basis for their salvation and not God's grace. So in this case: Paul could say of the Israelite view of salvation that if it be of grace, then it is no more works [i.e. Meaning: If they accept the Messiah and His grace, then it will no longer be "Works Alone Salvationism or Torah Law Salvationism"].

Paul is not referring to seasoned believers or Christians in Romans 11:6. For just a few verses above, it says,

But I do believe repentance is required at salvation but it is granted not worked for.

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You are referring to 2 Timothy 2:25 that says,


This is not talking about how GOD gives them the ability to repent like in Unconditional Election (Whereby GOD gives us the ability to repent], but this is talking about giving a person the opportunity to repent or seek forgiveness with the LORD.

The Good News Translation says,


Meaning, GOD will allow for a time and or favorable situation for a person to seek forgiveness with the LORD by hearing His Word. GOD will allow for the right moment or opportunity for a person to reconcile with Him by hearing the Bible. GOD will give them this opportunity within their life to hear His Word and repent [seek forgiveness with Him].

I believe "repent" means to seek forgiveness with the Lord Jesus Christ by way of prayer (i.e. the Sinner's Prayer) (To see examples of "repent" fitting best as a prayer to GOD, see: Luke 10:13, Luke 17:3, and Acts of the Apostles 8:22). You have stated before that "repent" means to turn away from sin and to turn to GOD. But you never clearly described what this means in more fuller detail. What does turning to GOD mean? Does it include works? If so, are these works forced upon the believer by GOD because they made a one time decision to accept Christ as their Savior? If so, then why are we told to do the following things within the Scriptures?



For we are told to:

1. Continue in the grace of God (Acts of the Apostles 13:43).
   
   
2. Continue in the faith (Acts of the Apostles 14:22) (Colossians 1:23).
   
   
3. Continue in his goodness, otherwise we can be cut off (just like the Jews were cut off) (Romans 11:21-22).

This does not sound like God's good ways are forced upon us after we are saved by God's grace. Yes, we are born again and we are given a new heart with new desires, but that does not mean we do not have free will. We still have to continue in God's grace, continue in the faith, and continue in his goodness. These things take effort and work on our part and they are not granted as some kind of gift from GOD (Whereby we cannot help but to do what is always good).

You said:

Also this poster believes that whenever it says we are saved by faith not of works it is only in relation to circumsicion salvation. And does not apply to all merit. Which is easily refuted. And done in this thread several times, just search this thread for gradyll posts to see my other posts. This verse I read today refutes the idea that the law was only about circumsision. The law is any merit we perform to save, secondly any command of God. It depends on what the message of passage is. Here is a verse that says the law is for all sinners not just the uncircumsized...

knowing this: that the law is not made for a righteous person, but for the lawless and insubordinate, for the ungodly and for sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, for fornicators, for sodomites, for kidnappers, for liars, for perjurers, and if there is any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine,
I Timothy 1:9‭-‬10 NKJV

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Again, you fail to understand what I was trying to say. I explained this in post #89 by way of example.



In other words, I believe Paul is speaking about how we are not under the whole of the Torah (and not the commands of Jesus and His followers), and circumcision salvationism is Paul's larger argument (although he is also saying how we are not under the whole of the Torah Law - which is given to Israel and not Gentiles).

The Jerusalem council in Acts 15 clearly shows us that a certain sect of Jews were trying to deceive Christians into thinking they had to:


Here are the verses:


So based on the Jerusalem council we can see that Paul was making a similar argument that Gentile Christians were not to keep the whole of the Law of Moses (Which was for Israel) and neither did they have to first be circumcised in order to be made right with GOD (or in order to be saved).

We see this same argument made by Paul, as well.

The heresy of Circumcision Salvationism mentioned by Paul:


Paul relates the problem of circumcision salvationism as his ultimate point or problem, but he uses the Old Law (in how we are not saved by the whole of the Law of Moses - the 613 laws) as a part of his argument, as well.


As for your quote of 1 Timothy 1:9-10 and your suggestion that is referring to the Moral Law:

Well, it is true that Paul is referring to the Moral Law within 1 Timothy 1:9-10. However, in other parts in Scripture, when Paul appears to speak negatively of the Law in general, Paul's point is not that the Law is binding as a whole upon our lives anymore, but in 1 Timothy 1:9-10, his point is that we can find useful things out of the Old Law (like the Moral Law, i.e. do not kill, do not steal, do not covet, etc.).

For verse 8 is the context that makes this point clear:


The Old Law is lawful IF one uses it lawfully. Meaning, if a person picks and chooses those things out of the Old Law (like the Moral Law), it is certainly lawful under the New Covenant and it's laws. Paul is condemning in following the WHOLE of the Old Law because there are many ceremonial laws (like the Saturday Sabbath, circumcision, and dietary laws like do not eat unclean animals) that do not apply anymore under the New Testament and its respective commands (given to us by Jesus and His followers).

gradyll said:

But anyway this particular debate is not a fruitful one at the moment. What is fruitful is being freed from sin. That is the purpose of the gospel. Jesus did not save us so we could float on a cloud forever and play a harp, Jesus saved us so we could know Him, and spend eternity getting to know JEsus better, and loving on Him, and having Him love on us. Part of Jesus loving us, is allowing His spirit to convict of sin, and reform us from the inside out.

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GOD does not force us to be a certain way. We have to work out our salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12). Yes, this would be cooperating with the good work GOD desires to do through us (Philippians 2:13).

The problem I see in your belief is that you said before that the carnal Christian is saved. If this is the case, then being freed from sin is not really necessary because one can merely just sin and still be saved as a carnal Christian. So there is no real necessity to turn from sin and turn to GOD.

Guojing said:

The motivation behind that thinking is "I have believe in Jesus death burial and resurrection for my justification. But I like to do good works just in case they are also needed, or I truly believe they are also needed".

Either way, you are still saved. God has shown, in the parable of the Prodigal Son, that we can accept him for the wrong reasons, and he will still embrace and love us. That is the awesome love of our God.

Click to expand...

After we are saved by God's grace,
God’s works (done through us) are also required as a part of the Salvation Process:


(Here are a List of Verses):


#1. “Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." (James 2:24).

#2. "Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.” (James 2:17-18).

#3. "They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).

#4. "If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing," (1 Timothy 6:3-4).


#5. "And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him." (Hebrews 5:9).

#6. "Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord" (Hebrews 12:14).

#7. “...God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth” (2 Thessalonians 2:13).


#8. “There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.” (Romans 8:1).


#9. "If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema [accursed] Maranatha."(1 Corinthians 16:22).

#10. ”And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.” (Luke 10:25-28).

#11. “...if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.” (Matthew 19:17-19).

#12. "And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me." (Matthew 10:38). ”If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? (Matthew 16:24-26).

#13. "...No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God." (Luke 9:62) (cf. Luke 8:11-15, 1 Corinthians 4:15).

#14. "But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God." (Romans 2:8-11).


#15. “And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.” (John 5:29).

#16. ”And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.” (Revelation 22:12-15).

#17. “For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.” (Romans 11:21-22).

#18. “Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.” (Philippians 2:12-13).

#19. ”Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.” (Matthew 25:34-40).
“Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.” (Matthew 25:41-46).

#20. ”His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.” (Matthew 25:21).
”And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” (Matthew 25:30).

#21. “In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.” (1 John 3:10).

#22. “He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God” (John 8:47).

#23. “But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.” (1 John 1:7) (cf. 1 John 2:9-11).

#24. “For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.” (Matthew 5:20).

#25. “Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.” (Matthew 7:24-27).

#26. “Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.” (Matthew 7:21).

#27. “And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet [Jesus], shall be destroyed from among the people.” (Acts of the Apostles 3:23).

#28. “I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.’ (John 15:5-6).


#29. “And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.” (1 Peter 4:18-19).

#30. “For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.” (Galatians 6:8-9).

Bible Highlighter said:

After we are saved by God's grace,
God’s works (done through us) are also required as a part of the Salvation Process:


(Here are a List of Verses (that I updated)):


#1. “Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." (James 2:24).

#2. "Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.” (James 2:17-18).

#3. "They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).

#4. "If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing," (1 Timothy 6:3-4).

Supplemental verse:
"...God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble." (James 4:6).​

#5. "And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him." (Hebrews 5:9).

#6. "Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord" (Hebrews 12:14).

#7. “...God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth” (2 Thessalonians 2:13).

Supplemental verses:
(a) “That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.” (2 Thessalonians 2:12).
(b) “...and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace, Comfort your hearts, and establish you in every good word and work.” (2 Thessalonians 2:16-17).​

#8. “There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.” (Romans 8:1).

Supplemental verse:

“For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” (Romans 8:13).​

#9. "If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema [accursed] Maranatha."(1 Corinthians 16:22).

Supplemental verses:

(a) "If ye love me, keep my commandments." (John 14:15).

(b) “If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.” (John 15:10).​

#10. ”And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.” (Luke 10:25-28).

#11. “...if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.” (Matthew 19:17-19).

#12. "And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me." (Matthew 10:38). ”If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? (Matthew 16:24-26).

#13. "...No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God." (Luke 9:62) (cf. Luke 8:11-15, 1 Corinthians 4:15).

#14. "But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God." (Romans 2:8-11).

Supplemental verses:

(a) "Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls." (James 1:21).

(b) “Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.” (James 1:12).

(c) "For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved." (John 3:20).​

#15. “And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.” (John 5:29).
#16. ”And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.” (Revelation 22:12-15).

#17. “For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.” (Romans 11:21-22).

#18. “Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.” (Philippians 2:12-13).

#19. ”Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.” (Matthew 25:34-40).
“Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.” (Matthew 25:41-46).

#20. ”His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.” (Matthew 25:21).
”And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” (Matthew 25:30).

#21. “In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.” (1 John 3:10).

#22. “He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God” (John 8:47).

#23. “But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.” (1 John 1:7) (cf. 1 John 2:9-11).

#24. “For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.” (Mathew 5:20).

#25. “Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.” (Matthew 7:24-27).

#26. “Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.” (Matthew 7:21).

Supplementary verse: “For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication” (1 Thessalonians 4:3).​

#27. “And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet [Jesus], shall be destroyed from among the people.” (Acts of the Apostles 3:23).

#28. “I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.’ (John 15:5-6).

Supplementary verses:
(a) “Bring forth therefore fruits befitting for repentance” (Matthew 3:8).
(b) “And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.” (Matthew 3:10).​

#29. “And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.” (1 Peter 4:18-19).

#30. “For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.” (Galatians 6:8-9).

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Yes that belief of yours will fall under what I described in bold as:

The motivation behind that thinking is "I have believe in Jesus death burial and resurrection for my justification. But I like to do good works just in case they are also needed, or I truly believe they are also needed".

Guojing said:

Yes that belief of yours will fall under what I described in bold as:

The motivation behind that thinking is "I have believe in Jesus death burial and resurrection for my justification. But I like to do good works just in case they are also needed, or I truly believe they are also needed".

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Yes, brother. I was merely backing up what you said here with 30 points in Scripture.

I hope you enjoy the collection of Scripture verses anytime someone tries to say that works is not necessary or needed as a part of eternal life (after we are saved by God's grace).

Blessings to you in the Lord this fine day.

@gradyll

I was formulating a reply to you this morning, but I did not get to finish it.
I had to do other things this morning later on.

May you be well in the Lord (even if we disagree on the topic of Soteriology).

gradyll said:

There is an abundant, unconditional flow of His grace available to you right now. Don't try to earn it, just reach out and receive it ...

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You said the carnal Christian is saved;
But Grace is not a license for immorality (Jude 1:4).
It's simple. 1 John 1:9, and 1 John 1:7.
Proverbs 28:13 says a similar thing.
For he that confesses and forsakes sin shall have mercy.
This is the continued grace of God or the imputation of Christ's sacrifice.
For if we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins (1 John 1:9) (cf. 1 John 2:1).
No confession of sin to the Lord Jesus Christ, and there is no forgiveness.
1 John 1:7 says that he that walks in the light as he (Christ) is in the light, the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin. Walking in the light is loving your brother according to 1 John 2:9-11. So we have to walk in the light in order for the blood of Jesus to continue within our lives after having received the forgiveness of God's grace through faith in Christ. For Hebrews 10:26 says that if we willfully sin after we receive the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sin.

@gradyll

There is a lot to say in regards to your post #152, and I have been busy lately. So I will have to finish my reply to you on this post at a later time. Hopefully my computer saved my previous work. In either case, may the Lord Jesus get all the glory.

Until then, may you be well in the Lord (even if we disagree strongly on the topic of salvation).

Sincerely,

~J.

gradyll said:

sir if that verse is referring to israel, then John 3:16 and many other salvation verses are also referring to israel, and possibly gentiles present in the context.

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Well, John 3:16 is in more in view to all people (Both Jews and Gentiles) because it says "Whosoever believes in him..."
Romans 11:6 is not in reference to Gentiles because:

#1. Romans chapters 9 through 11 (is in reference to Israel).
Even many Eternal Security proponents and or Belief Alone Proponents who have made commentaries on the Bible will agree that Romans 9-11 is about Israel. For example: Gotquestions.org who is in favor of Eternal Security and or that a person can sin and still be saved (see this article here, and here) believes that Romans 9-11 is dealing with Israel (See this article here).

#2. Romans 11:1 says, "I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin."; And verse 7 says, "What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded" (Romans 11:7). So before verse 6 and after verse 6, we see the mention of Israel as the subject here and not the Gentiles yet.

You can use whatever interpretation you wish, but you must apply it equally to yourself, not just the verses I use. I believe that is fair. So again if you can prove that in some situations that God specifically says that a verse is not to be interpreted to a group of people later, a church or a christian group later on, the burden would lie on yourself to prove that type of thing. 99.99% of theologians would disagree that the gospels were written to only jews, or gentiles present.

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Well, seeing Paul is referring to unsaved Jews who rejected their Messiah, you can also loosely apply Romans 11:6 to unsaved Gentiles who have not accepted their Messiah. But the problem is that this verse does not precisely fit because the Gentiles did not have the Law during this time and they did not have a false system of "Works Alone Salvationism" like the Jews did.

You said:

I have lots of verses I have shared that contradict your viewpoint (that we are saved by works),

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I believe that you think of salvation only in terms of it being only a one time event. Salvation is actually both in Justification, and in Sanctification (Which are unique and or different processes in salvation). So when you read verses on Justification, you say that this cannot be Sanctification by means of salvation. This is true because Justification is a different process than Sanctification.

You said:

and each one you have to interpret as only applying to the local context (only). And again if you can apply that law universally to any verse you wish, then I can apply it to john 3:16 or romans 3:23 for example, where universal depravity of man is proven. "For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God." I can say that only applies to the roman christians that that book was written to (the church in rome). But most if not all scholars that have any reputation whatsoever would never apply local context universally in the types of verses you do.

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I do not apply Romans 3 only to the church of Rome, but to all believers because it refers to both Jew and Gentiles. Again, Romans 11:1-7 is dealing with unsaved Israel.

You said:

And to prove me wrong, simply quote one that agrees with you. You won't because you don't use theology, probably because most theology disagrees with your viewpoint.

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Jesus said narrow is the way that leads unto life and few be there that finds it. Jesus is referring to salvation in regards to life here. The narrow way is not your average scholar's view on salvation.

You said:

But don't shoot the messenger.

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Not everyone is correct in their theology, or their study of God's Word. To say they are not getting something right does not mean I am shooting them. I believe to shoot the messenger is to simply attack the person and not offer any kind of substantial weight to their own argument with valid points.

The Bible says "in the multitude of counselors there is safety."

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Yes, this would be the 30 updated points in Scripture that testifies to the fact that Sanctification also plays a part in the salvation process. See post #180.

You said:

So while I don't normally recommend people read theology books over the Bible, in your case I would make an exception, because literally I have never read a theologian that agrees with the type of interpretation you are using in the scriptures. That should alarm you.

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Not at all. There are many things that I have discovered that the scholar and or the popular churches do not know or teach. They get many things wrong. Truth is not determined by a popularity contest.

You said:

See when I was a free gracer, I felt that because most evangelicals disagreed with me that I was somehow unique and God must have shown me specific revelation into His gospel that He did not reveal to the early church, I ended up being wrong and the multitude of teachers were right. So the verse that says "in the multitude of counselers there is safety." That was proven right in a painful way in my life.

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Not all truths mentioned are exhaustive or apply in every situation. Again, Jesus said narrow is the way that leads unto life, and few be there that find it.

You said:

So again, if I would you I would try to find a church that agreed, or a book or something at least that also agreed. But I bet you won't find one. I know of some that would be similiar, but you probably will never attempt to reach out. but realize that when one is engaged in heresy, that the sin of heresy is never alone. (the Bible says heresy is a work of the flesh).

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I believe you are changing the topic here because you were not able to refute the list I had given you in regards to how Sanctification plays a part in our salvation; You simply labeled them but you did not explain them (like I did with a good number of them). If you truly believe you are correct, then explain the verses I brought forth on how Sanctification is a part of salvation.

You said:

I would analyze if I had pride in my life.

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Paul says if any man does not agree with the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine according to godliness, he is proud and he knows nothing (1 Timothy 6:3-4).

James says God resists the proud and he gives grace to the humble (James 4:6).

You said:

Because ephesians 2:8 mentions that believing we are saved by works can create boasting. And that makes sense, if I believe I am saved by my own actions, then I can boast. But this boasting is false.

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Ephesians 2:8 is saying we are saved in the Justification Process (i.e. By God's grace through faith).
Ephesians 2:9 is saying that we are not saved by "Works Alone Salvationism without God's grace" because it is a Man Directed Work that a person is boasting in themselves by doing.
Ephesians 2:10 is NOT a work that a person can boast in themselves by doing because they are the kind of works that they were created in Christ Jesus to do. They are the works of GOD done through the believer. So any boasting in Ephesians 2:10 is a boasting in the LORD and not themselves. For Ephesians 2:10 is the Sanctification Process that proceeds AFTER Justification.

In other words, verse 9 = Man Directed Works Alone Salvationism.
Verse 10 = God directed works (After being saved by God's grace).

You said:

Jesus caught this sin in the pharisees. He said that they shut heaven up, while ignoring their own sin.

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Nowhere did I condemn anyone personally here. I condemn the wrong belief and not any specific individuals.

You said:

We talked about commands of God in the new testament, there are dozens of them. You have not followed all of them.

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I addressed the document you provided, and I shared why I feel that your view on that document is not correct.

You said:

Do you look with lust at women on social media? or TV? Or other places online? If you see a pretty woman, do you lust? Then you are not following God's laws.

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It is written,

5 "Trust ye not in a friend, put ye not confidence in a guide: keep the doors of thy mouth from her that lieth in thy bosom.
6 For the son dishonoureth the father, the daughter riseth up against her mother, the daughter in law against her mother in law; a man's enemies are the men of his own house." (Micah 7:5-6).

Also, the forum rules state we are not to address the poster or the individual, but we are to stick to the topic with Scripture.

In addition, would you believe me if I told you about my life? Well, trust needs to be earned. I confide in those who believe the Word of God as I do. Furthermore, it does not matter if most of the whole world was not living correctly. God's Word is still the standard and the standard is not my life alone. God destroyed an entire world with a global flood except for eight people. We walk by faith and not by sight. I am not above God's Word in what it says anymore than you are. If the Bible tells me to be ye holy, that is something I have to accept (Whether I like it or not).

And if you are working for salvation, you must try again. Rework your salvation. Don't you realize that no work is enough to make it?

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I do not believe in Works Alone Salvationism.
Believers are initially and ultimately saved by God's grace (i.e. Jesus Christ). It is why a person who comes to Jesus for the first time can have an assurance of salvation (Without doing any kind of work). Initial and ultimate salvation is a gift from God (Ephesians 2:8-9). We are not ultimately saved by works of righteousness we have done alone without God's mercy (Titus 3:5). For even if a believer were to stumble into sin, do they get clean by doing another work? No. They get clean by confessing their sins to Jesus (1 John 2:1) (1 John 1:9) and they ask Jesus to help them to overcome their sin (or to forsake it) (Matthew 26:41) (Romans 13:14) (John 15:5).

You said:

The Bible says in james "for one sin we die." "if we sin in one part of the law, we fail the whole law."

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No offense, but like most Eternal Security proponents, you are not actually reading the context of James 2, and you are reading this verse within in a vacuum to prove Eternal Security. The point made by James in James 2:10 is not that it is futile to keep God's laws but his point that you cannot offend in one point the Law by breaking the Royal Law of loving your neighbor by having respect of persons (by giving favor to the rich brethren, and not giving favor to the poor brethren). James is saying that if these Christians were to be unloving in this way with the poor brethren, they are in essence breaking all of God's laws and their faith would be dead because there would be no good works or deeds showing their faith to be true or genuine.

gradyll said:

Hebrews six, "turn from dead works."

that is turning from trying to save yourself.

let go and let God save you.

it's a free gift,

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Well, nobody on the forums knows my heart, my thoughts, and my life and or walk with the Lord and how I live. Sex, money, and sports is not my God. I actually hate sports and think it is a child like activity where people have a tendency to swear profanities (as a result of it). 1 Timothy 6 condemns being rich. Sex can be an idol for many. It no doubt will control their daily life whereby they cannot stop thinking about lusting after women. I believe the words of Jesus when he says that if we look upon a woman in lust, our whole body can be potentially cast into hell fire (Matthew 5:28-30).

Anyways, while salvation is a free gift (Ephesians 2:8), we know that life teaches us that gifts come with responsibilities. If Rick were to receive a free car as a gift, he cannot run red lights, hit pedestrians, and or drive drunk. Otherwise Rick would not have his car for very long (Which is a free gift). If Bob prayed to have a wife, and he received one, and he regarded her as a gift from the LORD, does that mean he can be unfaithful with her and expect her to stay with him? No. It is the same with GOD.

For we are told:

“...We are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end.” (Hebrews 3:13-14).

"Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life." (Jude 1:21).

"...be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life." (Revelation 2:10).

He has come to set us free from our sin.

The worst insult to God is saying, what you did for me on the Cross is not enough, let me save myself.

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Not at all. 1 John 1:7 does not teach the Eternal Security Proponent's statement that says you are saved by believing on the finished work of the cross alone. 1 John 1:7 says that if we walk in the light as He is in the light, the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin. Walking in the light = Loving your brother according to 1 John 2:9-11.

You said:

imagine taking your child out to lunch for graduating college with honors. And instead of paying for it, your child pulls out a card and paid the bill before you came back from the restroom. You would be heart broken. Because you loved your child so much, were so proud, were so wanting to bless them. But they would not let you love them. The theology of works salvationism hurts the heart of God, it says....i know you want to love me to give me salvation, but I want to do it myself.

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Only past sin is forgiven because that ties in with being sorry. No husband or wife gives their spouse a free pass to be unfaithful to them if they simply say they are sorry. Saying that one is sorry only appies for past unfaithfulness. It does not cover any future infidelity. It is the same with GOD. For if we willfully sin after we receive the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sin (Hebrews 10:26). Yes, there is God's grace and mercy, but that is only if we confess and forsake such sins (See 1 John 1:9, 1 John 1:7, and Proverbs 28:13).

You said:

but you must let down all your idols, god's of sex, god's of money, god's of sports (greek athena), let go and let God.

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Hezekiah destroyed all the idols from the previous kings. Did he turn from these idols? Yes. But he did not sit by and do nothing to make that happen. He had to do good work in destroying the idols. He did not sit by passively and hope the idols would just go away. He had to destroy the idols. This is work. For the believer: It takes active effort or work to put away sin out their life. They do not sit by and do nothing and just say that the blood of Jesus is sufficient. They have to do something. This doing something is called work. We are told to work out our salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12). James 2:24 says that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. This would be the work of GOD done through the believer (after being saved by God's grace), and not Man Directed Works Alone Salvationism that attempts to replace the grace of GOD (Ephesians 2:8-9). For Ephesians 2:10 then follows up and says that we need to have works. These would be GOD directed works because they are the kind of works that a believer is created unto Christ Jesus to do. But just doing good works is not enough. Some believers declared to Jesus that they did good works in His name, but they also worked sin or iniquity. But Jesus told them to depart from Him because of the result of their sin or iniquity (See: Matthew 7:23). For without holiness no man shall see the Lord (Hebrews 12:14).