Saul of Tarsus was reprobate.......

ilovejcsog · Oct 18, 2019

If it wasn't for Gods grace Paul would still be Saul. Don't we all believe that Saul was reprobate?

Carl Emerson · Oct 18, 2019

His student said:
The thorn was a person according to Paul.

Explain...

Carl Emerson · Oct 18, 2019

ilovejcsog said:
If it wasn't for Gods grace Paul would still be Saul. Don't we all believe that Saul was reprobate?

I thought Reprobate was someone sealed for Damnation...

Guojing · Oct 18, 2019

ilovejcsog said:
Look where he ended up. I was detained during the last related thread and wasn't able to comment. Here's your chance to if no cults take it over Not many greater than Paul in the new testament.

Under the law dispensation, Saul commited the unforgivable sin by stoning Stephen who was full of the Holy Spirit. In that aspect, he was a reprobate, but it so happens that the grace dispensation also began then, so in God's wonderful plan, he managed to get saved.

Let me explained further with Scripture.

Mark 3:28-29 (NLT) 28 “I tell you the truth, all sin and blasphemy can be forgiven, 29 but anyone who blasphemes the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven. This is a sin with eternal consequences.”

One might be curious, at least I was, on how exactly Saul was saved. If the Jews that stoned Stephen, blasphemed against the Holy Spirit, which Jesus said was an unforgivable sin, how in the world can God justify Saul? Remember, Paul was consenting to the stoning of Stephen. The latter was full of the Holy Spirit. By rejecting and stoning him, Paul was actually also committing blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.

I believed the dispensation of grace began during Stephen’s stoning. Under the grace dispensation, there is no longer any unforgivable sin. I looked at the Apostle Paul and I realized there is a more biblical way to understand that no Christian can commit that particular sin, simply because, again rightly dividing the word, Jesus’s proclamation of the unforgiveable sin was under the law dispensation, and when God decided to save Saul, he could do that righteously because of the change in dispensation.

The key verse is what Paul reflected in his letter to Timothy,

1 Timothy 1:15-16 New King James Version (NKJV)
15 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief. 16 However, for this reason I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might show all longsuffering, as a pattern to those who are going to believe on Him for everlasting life.

A pattern is the first of more to come. Paul is the “pattern” for us members of the Church, the Body of Christ; the Apostle Paul being the “pattern” means he was the first member of the Church, the Body of Christ. He was the first to be saved under the dispensation of grace. Even though he blasphemed against the Holy Spirit, he was forgiven because the dispensation has changed into grace.

ilovejcsog · Oct 18, 2019

Carl Emerson said:
Explain...

CL posted this:
"
Judges 2:3
Therefore I also said, ‘I will not drive them out before you; but they shall be thorns in your side, and their gods shall be a snare to you.’ ” "

ilovejcsog · Oct 18, 2019

Carl Emerson said:
Explain...

C posted in #18

Judges 2:3
Therefore I also said, ‘I will not drive them out before you; but they shall be thorns in your side, and their gods shall be a snare to you.’ ” "

ewq1938 · Oct 18, 2019

ilovejcsog said:
C posted in #18

Judges 2:3
Therefore I also said, ‘I will not drive them out before you; but they shall be thorns in your side, and their gods shall be a snare to you.’ ” "

Anything that annoys or harms someone can be a thorn...in the above it's humans but it doesn't also have to be a human as Paul's thorn. A messenger of Satan can also bean evil spirit that gave Paul a hard time and I believe it is related to his physical issues. I think he identified with Job as being a target for Satan's ability to harm someone's health with God's permission. It kept him humble and that helped Paul so ultimately it was good and I think Paul believed he deserved it as well.

His student · Oct 18, 2019

His student said: ↑

The thorn was a person according to Paul.

Carl Emerson said:
Explain...

Paul said that he had received from God a thorn in his flesh (as it were) to keep him from exalting himself because of all the things that God had revealed to him.

He then said that it was a messenger of Satan who was sent (or allowed by God) to buffet him in order to keep him humble.

Satan wouldn't desire to keep Paul humble. Rather - his wish would be quite the opposite. Therefore the messenger's constant presence was instigated by God to be given by Satan - in much the same way that Satan was allowed to do certain negative things for God's purposes in Job's life.

The statement concerning the messenger must be viewed in the context of the rest of the book which talked about all of the things and opposition Paul had experienced in his ministry up until that time.

Those terrible things ranged from ship wrecks to opposition from the Jews and beatings. It being the case that those listed things included things like ship wrecks and not just personal opposition - pretty much eliminated that messenger from being a human messenger.

Therefore I conclude that Paul's adversarial "messenger of Satan" was a spirit being who was assigned to Paul in particular and not just a human person or persons.

People often think that the thorn was sickness or some other physical issue. They perhaps see that because of Paul mentioning something once that had to do with perhaps his eye site. They use it to teach that God doesn't always want to heal and that receiving healing isn't by faith in what Jesus achieved at Calvary (which is quite Biblical according to Isaiah 53 and Matthew 8 - where healing is part of the attonement).

Although Paul does use the analogy of a constantly irritating "thorn in the flesh, seeing it as a physical ailment goes against scripture in several ways.

There is no reason to make the thorn something to do with lack of healing or something else when the scriptures are very clear that the thorn was a "person" - a messenger from Satan allowed by God to keep Paul dependent on God's power and not his own power or inflated knowledge.

Hope that helps.

Blade · Oct 18, 2019

" Don't we all believe that Saul was reprobate?" This is hard.. well I think its talked about once in the OT and 6 times in NT? And then to say Saul was? There is a reason God picked him. I can see how some might want to call him that. I never really looked into this

As for the thorn as some sickness.. what 1st comes to mind is.. lay hands on the sick and they SHALL recover and 1st Peter 2 24 and Isa 5:53. And brake down some words are.. torment, "to beat with the fist, buffet," Go for it.. take a thorn and stick it in your flesh. If you did exactly as its said.. your not sick in anyway but it does hurt lol. But we have to add "messenger of Satan".. thats someone real. Any ever look into did they talk anything like this back then? I really don't know. I can see how "the flesh" could lead you to believe. But then your going somewhere its not written. There is no one that came to God where He would not heal. Only those that doubted.

Sickness... no but.. I can see with everything God had shown Paul..who was just like you and me "human" God had to do something to keep him grounded. God still does this today. What? I don't know.. I think each is different. Look at what he suffered. Jesus said it right from the start about how he will suffer. Though forgiven.. there still a price to pay. Peter says 3 times.. I don't know Him. 3 times Christ asks? Do you love me. OT 3000 die.. NT 3000 saved.. its all throughout the bible. So.. if GOD shows you allot.. Satan WILL come after you. Gods grace is enough

ewq1938 · Oct 18, 2019

Remember that Saul of Tarsus was unsaved, denier of the Messiah and persecutor of Christ and Christians.

But Paul of Tarsus was a new man, born again, a Christian and Apostle, taught directly by Christ.

Technically two different people as were anyone before and after being born again.

Anguspure · Oct 19, 2019

ilovejcsog said:
Then again sort of. It doesn't say what the thorn will be only who will be giving it.?? I am confusing myself.
Back to Jeff, what is the thorn Jeff?

From: Rethinking Paul’s Thorn in the Flesh - Beyond Evangelical | The Blog of Frank Viola
"Paul’s thorn appears to be a man (inspired by Satan) who was obsessed with discrediting Paul and his ministry.

This man followed Paul wherever he traveled, beginning in South Galatia (Acts 14ff.). He was from the church in Jerusalem, most likely an ex-priest or an ex-Pharisee. And he sought to subvert Paul’s gospel and undermine Paul’s work.

This “messenger” or “servant” of Satan was in league with a group of others who followed him (Galatians 1:7; 5:12). They followed in Paul’s footsteps to the churches in Galatia, probably Thessalonica, and then to Corinth (he possibly could have been the leader of the “super-apostles” that Paul mentions in 2 Corinthians 11).

On three occasions, Paul asked the Lord to remove this person from his life. For he was a torment, a frustration, a harassment to Paul and his work.

But the Lord answered and said that His grace is sufficient. The Lord didn’t remove the thorn. He instead caused Paul to forebear it."

Maria Billingsley · Oct 19, 2019

ilovejcsog said:
I agree, his transformation to Paul is a wonderful example of Gods grace. He is my favorite. We still don't know what his thorn was?

I believe his thorn was guilt. He persecuted Christians and who knows how many died under his command. Though he knew he was forgiven, God would not let him forget so it was kept as a thorn in his side.

ewq1938 · Oct 19, 2019

Paul speaks much about his physical infirmities:

2Co 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth

such an one caught up to the third heaven.
2Co 12:3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth

2Co 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
2Co 12:5 Of such an one will I glory: yet of myself I will not glory, but in mine infirmities.
2Co 12:6 For though I would desire to glory, I shall not be a fool; for I will say the truth: but now I forbear, lest any man should think of me above that which he seeth me to be, or that he heareth of me.
2Co 12:7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

Whatever this reference to "the messenger of Satan" is, it is very clearly directly related to Paul's fleshy, physical limitations and infirmities. This is no harassment by some evil devil unless that harassment is physical harm. I recall satan having the power and authority to harm Job physically so I believe this could be a similar case. While Job thought God was punishing him, Paul knows that his infirmities come ultimately from satan.

2Co 12:8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.
2Co 12:9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
2Co 12:10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.

Again he speaks of weakness and infirmities. In our modern times we are used to assuming physical issues are simply failings of the body and rarely seriously consider satan or a servant of his could be afflicting us with infirmities to try to weaken our service to Christ and others.

1Sa 16:14 But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him.
1Sa 16:15 And Saul's servants said unto him, Behold now, an evil spirit from God troubleth thee.
1Sa 16:16 Let our lord now command thy servants, which are before thee, to seek out a man, who is a cunning player on an harp: and it shall come to pass, when the evil spirit from God is upon thee, that he shall play with his hand, and thou shalt be well.

Here God does send an evil spirit upon one of his own. It also should not be thought as coincidence that here we have a man named Saul, which is Paul's former name. In both cases God has permitted evil to "buffet" someone.

Clarke:

An evil spirit from the Lord - The evil spirit was either immediately sent from the Lord, or permitted to come. Whether this was a diabolic possession, or a mere mental malady, the learned are not agreed; it seems to have partaken of both. That Saul had fallen into a deep melancholy, there is little doubt; that the devil might work more effectually on such a state of mind, there can be but little question. There is an old proverb, Satan delights to fish in troubled waters; and Saul’s situation of mind gave him many advantages.

Paul's Thorn in the Flesh - Study Resources

Physical infirmities that seem to fit the situation are malaria, Malta fever, epilepsy, convulsive attacks, and chronic ophthalmia.

Many of these physical disabilities also affect the eyesight and it seems probable that even Paul himself experienced difficulty with his vision—this could very well be caused by his thorn in the flesh. Paul took advantage of various amanuenses to do the actual writing of at least some of his epistles. A mentioned amanuensis of Paul is Tertius who wrote down the book of Romans and added his own greeting to the church in Rome (Rom 16:22). Other times we see Paul adding a salutation with his own hands (1 Cor 16:21; 2 Thess 3:17) as opposed to physically writing the entire epistles. Paul even wrote in large print as noted in Gal 6:11. Other evidences of poor vision can be found earlier in the epistle to the Galatians. Paul says that because of physical infirmity he preached the gospel to the Galatians at the first (Gal 4:13). Some have speculated that the physical infirmity was a disease which affected his eyesight and the higher altitude in Galatia would have been better for him, especially if the disease was malaria. And only two verses later Paul states that the Galatian church would have plucked out their own eyes and given them to him if it were possible (Gal 4:15). Another example of Paul's poor eyesight is found in Acts 23:3-5. Paul was in the Sanhedrin at this point and referred to the high priest as a "white-washed wall" and those who stood by him asked why he was insulting the high priest. Paul responded by telling them that he did not realize that the man was the high priest. Though Paul, previously being a Pharisee, would have been able to recognize the high priest quite easily. Yet at this point he seemed unable to identify the high priest, even though the high priest would have stood out because he wore special garments and accessories. For a former Pharisee to have not recognized him is likely explained through understanding that Paul was not able to see him properly—giving weight to theories of trouble with his vision.

Paul's thorn came by way of a messenger of Satan in order to torment him. Yet at the same time it was given to him in order that he would not become conceited. The present paradox can be compared to that of the story of Job. Satan was permitted to afflict God's servant, yet only within the parameters set by God (Job 2). Paul also wrote about handing an immoral brother to Satan so that his flesh may be destroyed and his spirit saved on the day of the Lord (1 Cor 5:5). Satan is used at times as an instrument to bolster the faith or prove the righteousness of believers.

Strong in Him · Oct 19, 2019

ilovejcsog said:
CL posted this:
"
Judges 2:3
Therefore I also said, ‘I will not drive them out before you; but they shall be thorns in your side, and their gods shall be a snare to you.’ ” "

That doesn't mean we can assume that Paul had the same thorns.
Paul asked God to remove it, not them or him. God said that his power was made perfect in weakness, and Paul said that he would therefore bast of his weaknesses.
Paul was confronted with other gods when he was in Lystra, Athens and Ephesus, and also with people who wanted to kill him. They weren't weaknesses. In Athens, he used all their different gods as an opportunity to preach the Gospel, and when the people in Lystra acclaimed him as Hermes, he told them that he was just a human being - then preached the Gospel.

Guojing · Oct 19, 2019

ewq1938 said:
Paul speaks much about his physical infirmities:

2Co 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven.
2Co 12:3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth
2Co 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
2Co 12:5 Of such an one will I glory: yet of myself I will not glory, but in mine infirmities.
2Co 12:6 For though I would desire to glory, I shall not be a fool; for I will say the truth: but now I forbear, lest any man should think of me above that which he seeth me to be, or that he heareth of me.
2Co 12:7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

Whatever this reference to "the messenger of Satan" is, it is very clearly directly related to Paul's fleshy, physical limitations and infirmities. This is no harassment by some evil devil unless that harassment is physical harm. I recall satan having the power and authority to harm Job physically so I believe this could be a similar case. While Job thought God was punishing him, Paul knows that his infirmities come ultimately from satan.

2Co 12:8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.
2Co 12:9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
2Co 12:10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.

Again he speaks of weakness and infirmities. In our modern times we are used to assuming physical issues are simply failings of the body and rarely seriously consider satan or a servant of his could be afflicting us with infirmities to try to weaken our service to Christ and others.

1Sa 16:14 But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him.
1Sa 16:15 And Saul's servants said unto him, Behold now, an evil spirit from God troubleth thee.
1Sa 16:16 Let our lord now command thy servants, which are before thee, to seek out a man, who is a cunning player on an harp: and it shall come to pass, when the evil spirit from God is upon thee, that he shall play with his hand, and thou shalt be well.

Here God does send an evil spirit upon one of his own. It also should not be thought as coincidence that here we have a man named Saul, which is Paul's former name. In both cases God has permitted evil to "buffet" someone.

Clarke:

An evil spirit from the Lord - The evil spirit was either immediately sent from the Lord, or permitted to come. Whether this was a diabolic possession, or a mere mental malady, the learned are not agreed; it seems to have partaken of both. That Saul had fallen into a deep melancholy, there is little doubt; that the devil might work more effectually on such a state of mind, there can be but little question. There is an old proverb, Satan delights to fish in troubled waters; and Saul’s situation of mind gave him many advantages.

Paul's Thorn in the Flesh - Study Resources

This word infirmity is used nearly universally nowadays
to refer to some type of a sickness. People say, "This
person has an infirmity." We even call the place where we
send sick people "the infirmary."

Although it has an
almost exclusive connotation with sickness in its popular
use today, the meaning of this word infirmity wasn't
limited to sickness at the time that the King James Bible
was written.

Take, for example, Romans 8:
Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we
know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the
Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings
which cannot be uttered.

Romans 8:26

Notice the colon

) after the word "infirmities" and again
after the word "ought."This verse is saying that it is an
infirmity to not know what we should pray for as we
ought.

If you were to look up the word infirmity in the
dictionary, you'd find that it not only means a sickness,
but it could also be any weakness or inadequacy.

This is how it was used in Romans 8:26. Not knowing how to pray
for something is a weakness, an inadequacy, an infirmity
—not a sickness or a disease.

ewq1938 · Oct 19, 2019

Guojing said:
Notice the colon ) after the word "infirmities" and again
after the word "ought."

Punctuation does not exist in the manuscripts so mentioning it is meaningless.

Guojing · Oct 19, 2019

ewq1938 said:
Punctuation does not exist in the manuscripts so mentioning it is meaningless.

You may have that view but the KJV of that verse was trying to link infirmity to "know not what we should pray for as we ought".

You disagree with that?

Carl Emerson · Oct 19, 2019

Guojing said:
Under the law dispensation, Saul commited the unforgivable sin by stoning Stephen who was full of the Holy Spirit. In that aspect, he was a reprobate, but it so happens that the grace dispensation also began then, so in God's wonderful plan, he managed to get saved.

Let me explained further with Scripture.

Mark 3:28-29 (NLT) 28 “I tell you the truth, all sin and blasphemy can be forgiven, 29 but anyone who blasphemes the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven. This is a sin with eternal consequences.”

One might be curious, at least I was, on how exactly Saul was saved. If the Jews that stoned Stephen, blasphemed against the Holy Spirit, which Jesus said was an unforgivable sin, how in the world can God justify Saul? Remember, Paul was consenting to the stoning of Stephen. The latter was full of the Holy Spirit. By rejecting and stoning him, Paul was actually also committing blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.

I believed the dispensation of grace began during Stephen’s stoning. Under the grace dispensation, there is no longer any unforgivable sin. I looked at the Apostle Paul and I realized there is a more biblical way to understand that no Christian can commit that particular sin, simply because, again rightly dividing the word, Jesus’s proclamation of the unforgiveable sin was under the law dispensation, and when God decided to save Saul, he could do that righteously because of the change in dispensation.

The key verse is what Paul reflected in his letter to Timothy,

1 Timothy 1:15-16 New King James Version (NKJV)
15 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief. 16 However, for this reason I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might show all longsuffering, as a pattern to those who are going to believe on Him for everlasting life.

A pattern is the first of more to come. Paul is the “pattern” for us members of the Church, the Body of Christ; the Apostle Paul being the “pattern” means he was the first member of the Church, the Body of Christ. He was the first to be saved under the dispensation of grace. Even though he blasphemed against the Holy Spirit, he was forgiven because the dispensation has changed into grace.

Plenty of folks came into New Covenant salvation before Paul...

Carl Emerson · Oct 19, 2019

His student said:
His student said: ↑

The thorn was a person according to Paul.

Paul said that he had received from God a thorn in his flesh (as it were) to keep him from exalting himself because of all the things that God had revealed to him.

He then said that it was a messenger of Satan who was sent (or allowed by God) to buffet him in order to keep him humble.

Satan wouldn't desire to keep Paul humble. Rather - his wish would be quite the opposite. Therefore the messenger's constant presence was instigated by God to be given by Satan - in much the same way that Satan was allowed to do certain negative things for God's purposes in Job's life.

The statement concerning the messenger must be viewed in the context of the rest of the book which talked about all of the things and opposition Paul had experienced in his ministry up until that time.

Those terrible things ranged from ship wrecks to opposition from the Jews and beatings. It being the case that those listed things included things like ship wrecks and not just personal opposition - pretty much eliminated that messenger from being a human messenger.

Therefore I conclude that Paul's adversarial "messenger of Satan" was a spirit being who was assigned to Paul in particular and not just a human person or persons.

People often think that the thorn was sickness or some other physical issue. They perhaps see that because of Paul mentioning something once that had to do with perhaps his eye site. They use it to teach that God doesn't always want to heal and that receiving healing isn't by faith in what Jesus achieved at Calvary (which is quite Biblical according to Isaiah 53 and Matthew 8 - where healing is part of the attonement).

Although Paul does use the analogy of a constantly irritating "thorn in the flesh, seeing it as a physical ailment goes against scripture in several ways.

There is no reason to make the thorn something to do with lack of healing or something else when the scriptures are very clear that the thorn was a "person" - a messenger from Satan allowed by God to keep Paul dependent on God's power and not his own power or inflated knowledge.

Hope that helps.

You said "Therefore I conclude that Paul's adversarial "messenger of Satan" was a spirit being who was assigned to Paul in particular and not just a human person or persons."

Then you said "the scriptures are very clear that the thorn was a "person" - a messenger from Satan allowed by God to keep Paul dependent on God's power and not his own power or inflated knowledge.

Which is it ???

Guojing · Oct 19, 2019

Carl Emerson said:
Plenty of folks came into New Covenant salvation before Paul...

Which ones?

Saul of Tarsus was reprobate.......

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