Christianity (In a Nutshell)?

cvanwey said:

16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

So I will again ask.... Is lack in belief to a very specific God a sin?

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As above, that depends on just what you are disbelieving in.... See, I myself do not believe in the "god" you've sometimes tried to present here a month or 3 ago here on CF -- that's not the accurate picture of God in scripture. It's a distorted idea, which doesn't line up to the actual presented more completely and accurately in scripture when you read through full books. So, if that version of 'god' you presented is the one to which you are referring, you are only and merely disbelieving in a wrong version of 'god'. Not the actual. I suspect then the same with regard to Christ --

You'd not be able to believe nor to disbelieve until after you truly listened to His words and really got what He is saying, and really get what He has done for any that would turn to Him. You'd have to get the accurate word of Christ first, in order to then either believe or disbelieve. I strongly encourage people to not assume they already know. Growing up in a church is definitely not a guarantee of knowing, nor is even reading some parts of a gospel, nor even a cursory skimming through an entire one. But if you read with real listening, or can get the accurate message, then you'd have the first-ever chance to begin to choose. Even that can take some time though, for many, like me.

cvanwey said:

If I'm somehow w/o 'sin', but do not believe in the existence of a resurrected Jesus, it is not possible to enter heaven.

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"All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23), in Christian theology it is recognized that Jesus is the exception of that, but that is how things are by definition.

cvanwey said:

1. Hence, do the concepts of 'sin' even matter at all?

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Yes it matters because of the metaphysics, epistemology and cosmology of the situation.

cvanwey said:

2. Also, is earnest lack in belief itself considered an 'immoral' action to God? Isn't unbelief instead an amoral action/event/cognitive construct/other --- regardless of what we subjectively define as moral/immoral (or) sin/no sin?

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Their are lots of variables here. God certainly can and does work with unbelief and shows grace to those who have various doubts, but there can also be other things that are less sympathetic like "hardness of heart" etc. that might be lieing below the surface of things.

cvanwey said:

3. Is this how God's 'justice' works?

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I think you have in mind a juridical view of salvation which is not surprising since that is kind of the dominant view in Western Christian lands. By and large do not see Salvation that way but rather more in terms of healing and restoration etc.




Recapitulation theory of atonement - Wikipedia

cvanwey said:

Yes it is. Amazingly simple.... And it's neither.... It's axiomatic, according to 'Biblical claims' anyways:

John 3:16-18

If you do NOT follow the said verses above, no amount of 'goodness' matters. It is NOT possible to enter such a claimed kingdom. And if you are not perfect, but adhere to the above verses, you still have a shot.

**** Not too much in the way of 'analytics' required ****



Does this mean you are going to make a case that we CAN control what we believe?

Let's test this real fast....

Make yourself believe you are a billionaire, without 'just cause.' Make yourself believe in Xenu, without 'just cause.'

Therefore, "God seems to ultimately and eternally condemn people for a behavior/other that we most likely cannot control."

(i.e.) John 3:16-18 for starters



Thanks for that. Please see above....

And furthermore, you said you were done with that thread. Thus, I'm not sure why you would care

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You're up to your usual tricks, aren't you cvanwey?

cvanwey said:

I truly appreciate the earnest response. However, this is not the intent of my OP. Let me try a slightly different approach....

Let's say someone was brought up Christian, attempts to abide by all the Commandments, but does not actually think there exists a postmortem Jesus. It's like I told @2PhiloVoid ...

The catalyst is the belief. You can try, as hard as you can, to be a 'true-blue' Christian. Meaning, maybe you like the story line of Jesus, and still wish to follow His teachings, but stop right there. You follow His Words, but think He was also merely a human being whom was born, died, and that's all.

If He really did resurrect, and He truly did inspire the Bible, then John 3:16-18 is pretty dang clear....

So, to summarize... To recap the OP, we seem to have the following:

1. Sin is irrelevant. Why? Because regardless of WHO you are, you will sin regardless. The STARTING point is belief.

2. And as I also told @2PhiloVoid , you cannot control such beliefs.

Hence, Christianity seems to encompass attributes, which really have nothing to do with morality at all, regardless of how you slice it.

That is the point of this thread.

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In this post, you say it reflects the OP, but it's actually missing the very first conditional, "If I'm somehow w/o 'sin'" So, where is THAT in this post, assuming that "w/o" is supposed to mean "without"?

cvanwey said:

If I'm somehow w/o 'sin'

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You 1st premise is stated as a possibility. It is a logical possibility, but not an ontological possibility (according to the Christian faith). Sin is an ontological condition of humanity (not just a moral one). In other words, sinfulness is an inseparable part of the human being (ontos).

cvanwey said:

but do not believe in the existence of a resurrected Jesus

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Your second premise is contingent on the 1st not being the case. In other words, the resurrection is contingent on a humanity under the ontological condition of sinfulness. But, you have already rejected that condition in your first premise. There is an inconsistency between the first and second premise. If there were a humanity, even if just one, the resurrection would not be necessary. But there is no such humanity, i.e. all have sinned and fallen short, so the argument might be a fun logical exercise, but it has no ontological import (as far as Christianity is concerned). Whatever conclusions you may draw from those two premises is suspect due to the incompatablity of the premises.

cvanwey said:

If I commit 'sin', but believe in a resurrected Jesus, it is still possible to enter heaven.

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Again, the Christian assumption is that human sinfulness is an ontological condition. If we are to be saved at all, it is by grace. This does not mean that God doesn't care about morality. It does mean that God is saving the being (i.e. the human life) in spite of the sin condition.

I think part of what is driving your argument is the assumption that sin is simply a moral category, i.e. a category concerning only what is right and wrong (which is probably how you conceive of justice). But sin is also an ontological condition in that sin is a matter of life and death, existence and non-existence. Justice is not just about making what is wrong, right. Justice is also about making what is dead, alive.

Besides, what is justice except flourishing life? Justice is achieved when humanity flourishes in the presence of the God who loves them and created them for life in the divine presence.

cvanwey said:

I really don't think what I'm asking is too difficult; especially for a highly educated person, such as yourself claims to be....

'Sins' don't matter... Why? Because everyone 'sins'. The gateway to heaven begins with BELIEF. If I do not believe, I'm doomed; no matter what. Beliefs seem to be amoral actions. And yet, this is a critical criterium for Yahweh.?.?.?

Furthermore, you cannot control what you believe. Yet another vexing proposition from this Yahweh character...?

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Ok. We've been going nowhere here with you for the last year and a half. I think you've accomplished a goal of convincing us that you can't help but to not believe. Alright. Fine. I'm convinced.

So, seen any good movies lately? Have you had any really tasty meals that you'd like to share a Twitter post picture of here so we can go get some too? What's going on in life?

Thanks for the redirect.

cvanwey said:

Let's say someone was brought up Christian, attempts to abide by all the Commandments, but does not actually think there exists a postmortem Jesus.

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Actually, this was me for a time. Growing up in a not-so-grounded Christian home, I also thought for a long time Jesus was just a man and Christ was his last name. I wasn't taught anything about Jesus, just shown by movies who this guy was.
Yet, something was telling me that He was and is no ordinary man.

cvanwey said:

The catalyst is the belief. You can try, as hard as you can, to be a 'true-blue' Christian. Meaning, maybe you like the story line of Jesus, and still wish to follow His teachings, but stop right there. You follow His Words, but think He was also merely a human being whom was born, died, and that's all.

If He really did resurrect, and He truly did inspire the Bible, then John 3:16-18 is pretty dang clear....

So, to summarize... To recap the OP, we seem to have the following:

1. Sin is irrelevant. Why? Because regardless of WHO you are, you will sin regardless. The STARTING point is belief.

2. And as I also told @2PhiloVoid , you cannot control such beliefs.

Hence, Christianity seems to encompass attributes, which really have nothing to do with morality at all, regardless of how you slice it.

That is the point of this thread.

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1. Yes, that is what I was trying to convey in my original response. Belief comes first and is a must.

2. I think I gave an example of that in my previous post.

Morality comes from God, if you read throughout the Bible. We, being made in the image of God, have morality because of Him, our Creator. He gave us the law and spirit of the law - which we have a justice system today, but because of sin it is corrupt on this earth.

cvanwey said:

It was a (yes or no) question. I'll ask again, for clarity:

Is lack in belief to a claim a sin, according to God?

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Here is a quote from John 16 that seems to say that Jesus is a litmus test to determine whether a person loves the Father or hates the Father.
John 16:3 'And they will do this because they have not known the Father, nor me.'
John 16:9 'concerning sin, because they do not believe in me; '
John 16:27 'for the Father himself loves you, because you have loved me and have believed that I came from the Father.'
Bible Gateway passage: John 16 - Revised Standard Version

cvanwey said:

I'm sorry, but your response will not even set well with many Christians on here, most likely. I'm willing to bet (your) views differ from many other Christians on here, or elsewhere. What makes (your) interpretation the correct one? Many here have likely done what you have, and likely even beyond.

Let's start in a remedial fashion... (i.e.) The verses I quoted, which you have not addressed. John 3:16-18

Seems pretty clear.... Without belief in this specific claimed God, you are condemned.

Hence, what if I truly searched for this specific claim for many years, and find all claimed evidence underwhelming? What if I truly doubt such a claim is real? Well, I'll tell you... According to the above verse, I'm 'screwed'. And as I've told others here, you cannot control such a type of belief. Hence, if this particular flavor of God YOU believe in is real, God is going to condemn me for a behavior I cannot control. Hence, I ask a very simple question....

Why not at least provide sufficient evidence of His mere existence, and let me make a choice of whether or not I would actually like to follow Him or not? You know, like He did with satan and others. Seems like a reasonable request.

And while you are at it, and since you seem to have the correct grasp on the one true God, then I implore you, please adhere to Matthew 7:7, and pray for such a claimed God to provide me with true knowledge of His existence. Because I'll tell you, I've read the Bible, I've attended many Bible study groups, I've debated pastors, ministers, priests etc, and so on.... And thus far, I do not find the claims with supported or compelling evidence.

Simply pray for God to reveal Himself to me. I will then be on the same level playing field as all others, whom have claimed revelation. I would then still have the freewill to accept of reject His claims; just like the many others here, and elsewhere outside this forum.

But I'm willing to bet your answer will be in line with something like, "God is not a slot machine." Which begs the question, what IS the point of prayer then? Seems as though my request is just as good as any others whom pray for this, that, and the other, doesn't it?

Thank you in advance!

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I'll message you.

cvanwey said:

I know I should have slightly clarified my OP Let's assume the person was already presented with the concept of Christianity. Meaning, they are aware of the claim. The concept is then quite simple...

Does 'sin' even really matter either way? I'll answer preemptively.

The answer is no. 'We are saved by grace.'

Thus, Christianity, in a nutshell, deems 'morals' unnecessary.

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The second part, is in regards to the 'God approved' path to heaven; which seems to instead involve an amoral action or action. Belief/unbelief is neither moral or immoral, is it?

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Saved by grace most definitely.

Though, I think that a Christian must bear fruit and I don't think that can be avoided in any definition.

If I'm somehow w/o 'sin', but do not believe in the existence of a resurrected Jesus, it is not possible to enter heaven.

Well, if you were without sin, you would believe in the resurrected Jesus.

If I commit 'sin', but believe in a resurrected Jesus, it is still possible to enter heaven.

It is possible to enter heaven, but you need to believe more than the existence of Jesus. You need to place and rest your faith in his perfect person and finished work of redemption on behalf of sinners, including you.

1. Hence, do the concepts of 'sin' even matter at all?

Yes it still does.

2. Also, is earnest lack in belief itself considered an 'immoral' action to God? Isn't unbelief instead an amoral action/event/cognitive construct/other --- regardless of what we subjectively define as moral/immoral (or) sin/no sin?

In Scripture, unbelief is not only a sin, but also the progenitor of all other sins.

And last, seems as though, at least from the Christian perspective anyways, that the lack in belief of Jesus deems an eternal separation from God... To instead dwell in a possible eternal place of 'discomfort'. What if the 'soul' wishes to repent, in a manor which might please God after human death? The human's fate seems sealed at human death ---> 'forever'.

It isn't merely the lack of belief, but the state of sin that deems you worthy of eternal condemnation. If you never heard of Christ, you would be still deemed damnable for being a sinner. It is your sin that you will be judged, not merely your disbelief of Christ.

3. Is this how God's 'justice' works?

God will judge us according to his standard that is clearly spelled out in Scripture.

cvanwey said:

We go nowhere because you do not address critical points.

You stated I cannot claim a 'victory' prior to 'proving' my claims. I then demonstrate, with example, and you then ignore, and/or change the subject.

Until you address my position in post #40, your responses have little value here. And until you attempt to do so, my position stands. (i.e.): In Christianity.....

1. 'Sins' no longer really matter anymore, because everyone will 'sin' regardless. Belief is required. Which is absent from the concept of 'morality.'

Furthermore....

2. You cannot control what you believe, without justification for such. You cannot simply 'will' yourself to believe in a supernatural agent. You need your own 'proof'.

3. God's assigned 'justice' appears a vexing proposition...

Until you decide to actually tackle any of these, your responses mean little/nothing - in (this) thread anyways...

Thanks

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I could be wrong, but I thought some "thing" called REPENTANCE------whatever the heck that is------IS also required as one of the elements of having belief and faith in God, Christ and following the work of the Holy Spirit. Where does repentance as a concept play into your synthetic mental exercise here, cvanwey?