2 Thessalonians 1:7-10
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Parousia70 said:
What Parousia70 is doing is allowing Scripture to interpret Scripture and it's a wise thing to do.klutedavid said:
Acts 17 *is* from the context of the letters to the Thessalonians:
In Thessalonica
1 When Paul and his companions had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where there was a Jewish synagogue.
2 As was his custom, Paul went into the synagogue, and on three Sabbath days he reasoned with them from the Scriptures,
3 explaining and proving that the Messiah had to suffer and rise from the dead. “This Jesus I am proclaiming to you is the Messiah,” he said.
4 Some of the Jews were persuaded and joined Paul and Silas, as did a large number of God-fearing Greeks and quite a few prominent women.
5 But other Jews were jealous; so they rounded up some bad characters from the marketplace, formed a mob and started a riot in the city. They rushed to Jason’s house in search of Paul and Silas in order to bring them out to the crowd.
6 But when they did not find them, they dragged Jason and some other believers before the city officials, shouting: “These men who have caused trouble all over the world have now come here,
7 and Jason has welcomed them into his house. They are all defying Caesar’s decrees, saying that there is another king, one called Jesus.”
8 When they heard this, the crowd and the city officials were thrown into turmoil.
9 Then they made Jason and the others post bond and let them go.
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Yes, intense heat as if when a person is burned to death.....
Keras, Revelation is not worldwide. Quit spreading that futuristic sci-fi nonsense
It was the fire started by Roman soldiers during the siege of 70Ad Jerusalem......Does anyone seriously believe that it is a literal angel pouring a bowl out on the sun in Reve 16:
EZEKIEL 22 "GATHER HOUSE OF ISRAEL INTO JERUSALEM TO MELT IN FURNACE/GEHENNA/LAKE OF FIRE"
Isa 31:9
He shall cross over to his stronghold for fear, And his princes shall be afraid of the banner,” Says the LORD, Whose fire is in Zion And whose furnace is in Jerusalem.
Ezekiel 22:17
The word of the LORD came to me, saying, 18 "Son of man, the house of Israel has become dross to Me; they [are] all bronze, tin, iron, and lead, in the midst of a furnace; they have become dross from silver. 19 "Therefore thus says the Lord GOD: 'Because you have all become dross, therefore behold, I will gather you into the midst of Jerusalem. 20 '[As men] gather silver, bronze, iron, lead, and tin into the midst of a, to blow fire on it, to melt [it;] so I will gather [you] in My anger<639> and in My fury<2534>, and I will leave [you there] and melt you.
21 'Yes, I will gather you and blow on you with the fire of My wrath<5678>, and you shall be melted in its midst. 22 'As silver is melted in the midst of a furnace, so shall you be melted in its midst; then you shall know that I, the LORD, have poured out My fury<2534> on you.'
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Reve 6:17 "For the Great Day of His Wrath has come, and who is able to stand?
Revelation 16:8
Then the fourth angel poured out his bowl on the sun, and power was given to him to scorch men with fire. 9 And men were scorched with great heat, and they blasphemed the name of God who has power over these plagues; and they did not repent and give Him glory.
Revelation 18:18
And they cried, observing the smoke of Her burning, saying, "What like to the great City?" 19 and they cast dust upon their heads, and cried, lamenting, weeping and mourning, saying, "Woe! woe! the great City! in which are rich all those having ships<4143> in the sea, out of Her preciousness<5094>, for to one hour was She was desolated
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A Preterist Exposition and Commentary of Revelation 16:8: The Fourth Plague is a Natural Consequence of the First.
In Deuteronomy 28:22, God threatened to punish the Israelites with scorching heat if they ever turned away from him. See Deuteronomy 28:15-68: A Preterist Commentary. In the fourth bowl, God stays true to his word. Recall that the plagues of the trumpets and bowls record the same events.
In the first trumpet of Revelation 8:7 “a third of the trees were burned up[.]” Trees provide shade and relief from the scorching heat of summer. Thus the fourth plague in which the sun is said to scorch the people is a natural consequence of the first plague. Interestingly, Josephus records people being killed by the heat of summer during the war with Rome.
A Covenant Eschatology Exposition and Commentary of Revelation 16:8: Josephus says that many Jews Died from Intense Heat during the Summer.
During the Jewish War, many Samaritans escaped to the mountain of Gerizzim where they were besieged by the Romans at the base of the mountain. Concerning the fate of these Samaritans, Josephus says the following in Wars of the Jews 3.7.32: “Now it happened that the Samaritans, who were destitute of water, were inflamed with a violent heat (for it was summertime, and the multitude had not provided themselves with necessaries), insomuch that some of them died that very day with heat . . . .”14 Here one can see the literal fulfillment of Revelation 16:9: “They were seared by the intense heat . . . .” That having been said, there appears to be more to the searing heat of v. 8 than just the heat of the sun.
A Covenant Eschatology Interpretation and Commentary of Revelation 16:8: Israel was burned by the Romans as Part of Rome’s Scorched Earth Policy.
During the Jewish War, Rome followed a scorched-earth policy. In his history of the Jewish War, Josephus records how the Romans set fire to the cities of Israel and the surrounding suburbs and countryside.15 The punishing heat of v. 8 might also have been induced and aggravated by the many fires ignited by the Romans throughout the course of the Jewish War. In light of Rome’s scorched earth policy, one can see how the people were truly scorched “with fire” in v. 8.
The siege of Jerusalem. As a consequence of this siege, Jerusalem was burned to the ground much like the rest of Israel during the Jewish War. Roberts, David. The Siege and Destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans Under the Command of Titus, A.D. 70 . 1850. Yeshiva University Museum, New York.
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Visual Timeline of the Roman-Jewish War ARTchive
CAST OF CHARACTERS: Roman: Emperor Nero | General Vespasian | General Titus | The Roman Army || Jewish: General / Historian Josephus | Factional Leaders in Jerusalem || Administrators of Roman Judea Targets: Jerusalem | Herod's Temple // Maps of the Roman Invasion // Theological Timeline
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CHRONOLOGY IMMEDIATELY SURROUNDING THE WAR
Stage 1: Murder of James the Just, "Opposition High Priest" ; Irrevocable Split: 62
Stage 2: General Revolt in Jerusalem ; Zealot Occupation of Masada: August-September 66
Stage 3: The Campaign of Cestius Gallus and the Defeat of the Twelfth Legion: October-November 66
Stage 4: End of Collaborative Government, Priesthood ; General Flight: November 66 - March 67
Part 6: Vespasian Subdues Northern and Western Palestine: December 66 - December 68
Part 7: Three-way Power Struggle within Jerusalem After Roman Retreat: January 68 - May 70
Part 8: Romans Breach City Walls and Leave Jerusalem Desolate: May 10 - September 10, 70
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klutedavid
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The Jews were searching for Paul and Silas in Acts 17. Jason and the others merely accepted them into their home, so the guilt of these Gentiles (Jason) was guilt by association with Paul and Silas (Jews).
The Jews were never pursuing Jason as Jason was merely an ignorant Gentile.
The Thessalonian letters never mentions the law and every other Pauline epistle mentions the law. Paul never guards the Thessalonians from the threat of the Jewish legalism.
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Why does it matter to you whether or not it was the Jews that were stirring up the persecution? This was a confusing time period of transition (all within the rule of the oppressive Roman empire). The letters to the Thessalonians didn't place limits on who would be punished for persecuting them and Paul, Timothy, and Silvanus ( ALL their persecutors would be punished - ISTM):
2 Thessalonians 1:6-7 ~ it is only right for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, and to grant relief to you who are oppressed and to us as well, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven
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The persecution is involving Roman rule (and that goes back to the crucifixion as well - when it was said "we have no king but Caesar" - John 19:15).
See the claims made about the followers of Jesus mentioned in Acts 17?
Acts 17:6-7 ~ But when they could not find them, they dragged Jason and some other brothers before the city officials, shouting, “These men who have turned the world upside down have now come here, and Jason has welcomed them into his home. They are all defying Caesar’s decrees, saying there is another king, named Jesus!”
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The backstory:
Quoting Ray Vander Laan: THE RISING STORM Ever since the Romans arrived on the scene in 64 BC, the Jewish people were divided over how to respond to the rule of their often corrupt governors or the Herod family who served them. The religious community, particularly the Pharisees, believed the Jewish people were to be God's instruments on earth, from whom the Messiah would come to institute that glorious age when Israel would be a great and free nation. Many others, especially the secular community and apparently some of the Sadducees, noted the present reality of the rule of Rome and determined that cooperation was the best policy. The tyrannical rule of Rome and the paganism of its religious and Hellenistic culture heightened the contrast between the situation at hand and the messianic hopes. This difference produced increasing fragmentation of the people, and several movements developed in response. ~ The Jewish Revolts
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Indeed mkgal.
How one cannot see 1st century 70ad Jerusalem in Revelation 18 is beyond me..........
Act 12:2
1 Now about that time Herod the king stretched out his hand to harass some from the church. 2 Then he killed James the brother of John with the sword.
3 And because he saw that it pleased the Jews, he proceeded further to seize Peter also. Now it was during the Days of Unleavened Bread
Act 23:
14 Who-any toward coming to the Chief-priests and to the Elders say "to-anathema we anathematize ourselves of no yet nothing to taste till of which we may be killing Paul.
16 So when Paul's sister's son heard of their ambush, he went and entered the barracks and told Paul.
1 Thessalonians 2:
14 For ye imitators were become brothers of the Assemblies of the GOD, the ones being in the Judea in Christ Jesus. That these suffered and ye by the own together-tribes, according as also they by the Jews.
15 Of the also the Lord Jesus killing Jesus and the own of them prophets, and us persecuting; and to God no pleasing, and to all men against,
16 forbidding us to the nations to speak that they may be being saved, into the to fill up of them the sins always.
But the wrath hath come upon them into a finish/end/uttermost<5056>.
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Philippians 3:2
Beware of the dogs, beware of the evil workers, beware of the circumcision!
2 Corinthians 6:17
wherefore come-forth out of midst of them! and be being separated! is saying Lord
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Rev 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven saying, “Come out of her my people, lest you share in her sins, and lest you receive of her plagues.
Rev 18:5
“For her sins have reached to heaven, and God has remembered her iniquities.
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Please vote in my poll thread so I can have a view where members here stand concerning that great City. Thank you....
What great City is being symbolized in Revelation?
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More backstory and how enmeshed the ancient Temple religious system became with the Roman government:
The Sadducees apparently practiced a form of cooperation since it was Rome who kept them securely in their position over the Temple and therefore over the people (John 11:49-50). The Herodions appeared satisfied with the Herod dynasty (Matt. 22:16). The Pharisees, condemning Rome's pagan excesses, were removed from politics and viewed the foreign oppressors as God's hand punishing his people for their unfaithfulness to the Torah. The country was in turmoil, each faction longing in a different way for the freedom they desired. To this climate of confusion, hatred, and division, many so-called messiahs came, each preaching his own brand of salvation (Acts 21:38). Jesus presented his unique message of redemption. Some followed his lead, but many did not. During feast days, especially Passover, tensions reached fever pitch and the Romans increased their military presence to prevent open revolt. The climate existed, however, for revolution to begin.
Herod Agrippa I, grandson of Herod the Great, died in AD 44 (Acts 12:19-23). The Romans appointed a series of governors called procurators, each apparently more corrupt and cruel than the previous ruler. Groups of rebel sicarii (assassins) were everywhere, killing Romans and the Jews who cooperated with them. Jonathan the high priest was assassinated. During this time, Paul was arrested (Acts 21:27-37) and accused of being one of the rebels (Acts 21:38). Popular support for the Zealots grew. The priesthood became more dependent on the Romans for security and support, and in so doing, they grew increasingly corrupt. This drove the common people toward the radical approach of the Zealots. ~ The Jewish Revolts
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Hello mkgal. Preterist Archives also has great info on the Jewish Wars.
Were you and others aware that I have 2 threads on the Jewish Wars/Rebellion in connection with the Olivet Discourse and Armageddon in Revelation?
I really need more members, especially preterists/amills to vote and respond on these. Thanks
WARS AND RUMORS OF WARS 1ST CENTURY JEWISH WARS ISRAEL, JUDEA AND JERUSALEM
Was Matt 24:6 fulfilled by the 1st century Jewish War?
- *
Yes
2 vote(s)
100.0% - No
0 vote(s)
0.0% - Possible
0 vote(s)
0.0% - other
0 vote(s)
0.0%
Matt 24:6..The Jewish Wars in 1st century...Up to 70ad and Masada
Visual Timeline of the Roman-Jewish War ARTchive
CAST OF CHARACTERS: Roman: Emperor Nero | General Vespasian | General Titus | The Roman Army || Jewish: General / Historian Josephus | Factional Leaders in Jerusalem || Administrators of Roman Judea Targets: Jerusalem | Herod's Temple // Maps of the Roman Invasion // Theological Timeline
CHRONOLOGY IMMEDIATELY SURROUNDING THE WAR
Stage 1: Murder of James the Just, "Opposition High Priest" ; Irrevocable Split: 62
Stage 2: General Revolt in Jerusalem ; Zealot Occupation of Masada: August-September 66
Stage 3: The Campaign of Cestius Gallus and the Defeat of the Twelfth Legion: October-November 66
Stage 4: End of Collaborative Government, Priesthood ; General Flight: November 66 - March 67
Part 6: Vespasian Subdues Northern and Western Palestine: December 66 - December 68
Part 7: Three-way Power Struggle within Jerusalem After Roman Retreat: January 68 - May 70
Part 8: Romans Breach City Walls and Leave Jerusalem Desolate: May 10 - September 10, 70
=====================
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Ask me that same question when both of us have been resurrected from the dead, and you witness the greatest earthquake in the history of the planet. That resurrection is found in the statement of faith for this forum.
Words have meaning. You can make a joke about the text if you want to. That is your decision.
Geologists have measured the swelling of the Yellowstone caldera and predict it could explode at any moment, just as it has done several times in the past. What lies underneath the surface at that location is a super-volcano.
That event is predicted to take out several states, and change weather on the whole planet for several years.
At one time paleontologists discovered the bones of Woolly Rhinos buried in volcanic ash, within the State of Nebraska. There was just one problem. There were no volcanoes in Nebraska at the time the Rhinos lived.
Those animals died during a past eruption of Yellowstone.
The supernatural event described in the Book of Revelation will make the Yellowstone eruption look like a minor event.
.
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I'm not joking about the text - I was pointing out the personification language there.
I'm in agreement with Adam Maarschalk on this.
He wrote:
Proposal: One of the Holy Spirit’s aims in Revelation is to guide the early church in navigating the transition period from one covenant (the old) to the next (the new), especially as that period was drawing to a close. This period lasted roughly 40 years (30 AD – 70 AD), parallel to the 40 years that the Israelites wandered in the wilderness.
Proposal: One of the Holy Spirit’s aims in Revelation is to guide the early church in navigating the transition period from one covenant (the old) to the next (the new), especially as that period was drawing to a close. This period lasted roughly 40 years (30 AD – 70 AD), parallel to the 40 years that the Israelites wandered in the wilderness.
Basis (one of several): The same imagery that was present at the giving of the law, the old covenant, is echoed several times in the book of Revelation (4:5, 8:5, 11:19, and 16:18). This post will highlight these passages and their significance.
Parallel Scripture Passage: “In that He says, ‘a new covenant,’ He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away” (Hebrews 8:13, 1st century AD).
Moses and the Israelites at Mount Sinai
Just before examining these passages in Revelation, let’s look at Exodus 19, the passage I believe they echo:
In the third month after the children of Israel had gone out of the land of Egypt, on the same day, they came to the Wilderness of Sinai. For they had departed from Rephidim, had come to the Wilderness of Sinai, and camped in the wilderness. So Israel camped there before the mountain. And Moses went up to God, and the Lord called to him from the mountain, saying, “Thus you shall say to the house of Jacob, and tell the children of Israel: ‘You have seen what I did to the Egyptians, and how I bore you on eagles’ wings and brought you to Myself. Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice and keep My covenant, then you shall be a special treasure to Me above all people; for all the earth is Mine. And you shall be to Me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.’ These are the words which you shall speak to the children of Israel.”
…Then it came to pass on the third day, in the morning, that there were thunderings and lightnings, and a thick cloud on the mountain; and the sound of the trumpet was very loud, so that all the people who were in the camp trembled. And Moses brought the people out of the camp to meet with God, and they stood at the foot of the mountain. Now Mount Sinai was completely in smoke, because the Lord descended upon it in fire. Its smoke ascended like the smoke of a furnace, and the whole mountain quaked greatly (Exodus 19:1-18).
So we see that God reminded them of how He bore the people of Israel “on eagles’ wings”* out of Egypt and to Himself. God was establishing a covenant with them at this time, and He called them to be “a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.”** ~ II Thessalonians 2 and the Man of Lawlessness
Parallel Scripture Passage: “In that He says, ‘a new covenant,’ He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away” (Hebrews 8:13, 1st century AD).
Moses and the Israelites at Mount Sinai
Just before examining these passages in Revelation, let’s look at Exodus 19, the passage I believe they echo:
In the third month after the children of Israel had gone out of the land of Egypt, on the same day, they came to the Wilderness of Sinai. For they had departed from Rephidim, had come to the Wilderness of Sinai, and camped in the wilderness. So Israel camped there before the mountain. And Moses went up to God, and the Lord called to him from the mountain, saying, “Thus you shall say to the house of Jacob, and tell the children of Israel: ‘You have seen what I did to the Egyptians, and how I bore you on eagles’ wings and brought you to Myself. Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice and keep My covenant, then you shall be a special treasure to Me above all people; for all the earth is Mine. And you shall be to Me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.’ These are the words which you shall speak to the children of Israel.”
…Then it came to pass on the third day, in the morning, that there were thunderings and lightnings, and a thick cloud on the mountain; and the sound of the trumpet was very loud, so that all the people who were in the camp trembled. And Moses brought the people out of the camp to meet with God, and they stood at the foot of the mountain. Now Mount Sinai was completely in smoke, because the Lord descended upon it in fire. Its smoke ascended like the smoke of a furnace, and the whole mountain quaked greatly (Exodus 19:1-18).
So we see that God reminded them of how He bore the people of Israel “on eagles’ wings”* out of Egypt and to Himself. God was establishing a covenant with them at this time, and He called them to be “a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.”** ~ II Thessalonians 2 and the Man of Lawlessness
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Islands fleeing is figurative language.
David Chilton: 20 In this final judgment, every false refuge disappears; the mountains and rocks no longer can hide the wicked “from the face of Him who sits on the Throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb” (6:16): Every island fled away, and the mountains were not found. ~ David Chilton, The Days of Vengeance: An Exposition of the Book of Revelation (1987).
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Ok..........start a thread on Earthquakes in the Bible.......
Hello mkgal.......
I am really beginning to like this site in relation to the 1st century Jewish Wars and 70AD Jerusalem being in Revelation 18
Revelation 16: A Preterist Commentary - Revelation Revolution
Rev 6:14 Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place.
Preterist Bible Commentary on Revelation 6:12-14:
It is Also Possible that Revelation 6:12-14 May Have Been Fulfilled at the Fall of Jerusalem in A.D. 70 when the City was Burned by the Romans. If So, then the Sun and Stars Darkened by the Smoke from the Fire. And the Moon Turned Red After having Reflected the Hues of the Fire Below as Often occurs in Large Fires.
Having addressed the possible fulfillment of Revelation 6:12-14 in A.D. 68 and A.D. 69, it is also possible that these vs. were fulfilled at the fall of Jerusalem in A.D. 70. During the conquest and fall of Jerusalem in A.D. 70 the Romans burned and demolished the city. If vs. 12-14 were fulfilled at this time then the earthquake mentioned in v. 12 would likely have been a poetic consequence of the people of Jerusalem trembling and shaking in fear at the Romans as they besieged and ultimately violently entered the city mirroring the way in which “earthquake” is used in the presence of a besieging army in Joel 2:1-10 mentioned above.
The celestial omens like the sun turning black like sackcloth, the moon turning red, and the stars falling from the sky might be a natural consequence of a large fire like that which consumed Jerusalem at its fall. The smoke from the fire of the burning city may have darkened the sun like sackcloth in fulfillment of v. 12 from the perspective of those in and around Jerusalem at that time. This smoke may have also obscured the stars making them darken and disappear as if they had fallen from heaven fulfilling v. 13. Likewise, the red and orange hues of large fires like that which consumed Jerusalem can also reflect itself in the sky making the sky appear to also be on fire (2 Peter 3:5-13) during which the moon can also take on the orange or red color of the massive fire below. Here one can see how the moon may have also turned red at this time in fulfillment of v. 12.
The Fortress of Masada
15Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and every slave and every free man hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. 16They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?
Preterist View, Interpretation and Commentary of the End Times and Revelation 6:15-17: As stated in v. 15, the People fled to the Mountains and Caves at the fall of Jerusalem in A.D. 70 and the fall of Masada in A.D. 74.
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Rev 16:20 Then every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.
Revelation 9:5 Tormented 5 MONTHS and death fleeing 70ad
Flood of Noah....flood of armies Daniel 9:26/Daniel 11:22.......5 months.... same length of time for the Romans to conquer Jerusalem
The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD
Proof that Matthew 24 was fully fulfilled in 70 AD!
..............This memorable siege terminated on the eighth day of the ninth month, A.D. 70 : its duration was nearly five months, the Romans having invested the city on the fourteenth day of the fourth month, preceeding.
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Revelation 16 Already Happened: Verse 20 hints at a Metaphorical Flood in which Israel, the Earth, is destroyed by Rome, the Sea.
This is flood imagery. The conquest of Israel, the earth, by Rome, the sea, is frequently metaphorically depicted in the Apocalypse as a flood. See In the Bible “Earth” Signifies the Specific Land Addressed While “Sea” Symbolizes Foreign Nations and The Poetic Biblical Link Between “Sea” and “Abyss. Furthermore, as has also been stated previously mountains often denote cities in the Bible.46 See In the Bible Mountains Represent Cities or Kingdoms. Echoing the point made in v. 19, John again emphasizes in this verse that many of the mountains or cities of Israel and Rome would be entirely demolished. Josephus describes cities so thoroughly destroyed by the Romans that virtually nothing remained. Concerning the destruction of Idumea, Josephus writes, “[T]here was no sign remaining of those places that had been laid waste, that ever they had had a being.”47 The purpose of v. 20 is to illustrate the fact that after the war, the land, left desolate, would resemble the earth at its creation in Genesis 1:2, a water world without form, void and barren–thus, setting the stage for its renewal in Revelation 21:1 as the new Jerusalem.
21From the sky huge hailstones of about a hundred pounds [one talent] each fell upon men. And they cursed God on account of the plague of hail, because the plague was so terrible.
Revelation 16 Has Been Fulfilled: The Hundred Pound Hailstones of v. 21 were the Hundred Pound Boulders Launched by Roman Catapults during the Siege of Jerusalem. These Stones were White like Hail.
First century Roman catapult.
In this verse, Jerusalem is under attack. Having assembled multiple catapults, Titus’ army hurled giant stones at the city walls hoping to breach the city’s defenses. V. 21 describes this assault as a plague of hail. In the original Greek, each hailstone in Revelation 16:21 is said to weigh a talent, which is approximately one hundred pounds. Regarding this plague of hail, Josephus writes:
Now, the stones that were cast were of the weight of a talent, and were carried two furlongs and farther. The blow they gave was no way to be sustained, not only by those that stood first in the way, but by those that were beyond them for a great space. As for the Jews, they at first watched the coming of the stone, for it was a white color [emphasis mine] . . . .48
Boulders believed to be used in Roman catapults.
The parallels between this verse and Josephus’ description above are startling. Not only were these stones white like hail, they were also said to have weighed a talent—the precise weight of each hailstone in v. 21. As one might imagine, Jerusalem did eventually fall. But before John describes the fall of Babylon in the next chapter, an angel reveals the crime for which she is being punished—a crime that leaves John astonished.
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DavidPT
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Here's one good reason why. If our understanding is agreeing with the texts involved, we at least have to arrive at a logical conclusion first, correct? Is one agreeing with the texts in Revelation 18 if they are seeing 70 AD Jerusalem in them? Is this a logical conclusion to arrive at? Let's see.
Revelation 18:21 And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.
If this is meaning Jerusalem in 70 AD, why is it that Jerusalem can still be found, even in our day and time? Obviously when the text indicates...and shall be found no more at all....it literally means for forever once this verse is fulfilled.
There were unbelieving Jews occupying Jerusalem at the time of it's destruction in 70 AD. Today in our day and time there are also unbelieving Jews occupying this same Jerusalem. But how though if it shall be found no more for forever, that assuming the events concerning 70 AD can be found in Revelation 18, thus already fulfilled?
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Yeah. And you take that as literal?
Don't forget about the smoke of it going up into the Ages of the Ages.
Matthew 23:33 "Serpents! offspring of vipers! how? ye may be fleeing from the judging<2920> of the Gehenna<1067>
==========================
Revelation 14:11 And the smoke of the tormenting of them is ascending into Ages to-Ages. And not they are having Rest<372> day and night [Matthew 11:29/Hebrews 4:3]
The Great City/Harlot/Queen Revelation chapts 17-19
Revel 19
Hallelujah and Its Hebrew Meaning - Israel Study Center
“Hallelu” (הללו) and “Yah” (יה).
Revelation 19:3 And a second-time they have declared "HalleluYah!
and the smoke of Her is ascending into the Ages of the Ages".
Revelation 19 Preterist Commentary Intro: The Fall of Babylon Continued . . .
John’s present vision concerning the fall of Babylon comes to a close in v. 10 of this chapter.1 Then in v. 11, John is given another vision beginning with the second coming. Here he sees Jesus leading the armies of heaven over the skies of Israel. Is there any historical evidence of such an event? This question will be answered shortly. But before doing so, John’s vision of the fall of Babylon will be discussed.
1After this I heard what sounded like the roar of a great multitude in heaven shouting: “Hallelujah! Salvation and glory and power belong to our God, 2for true and just are his judgments. He has condemned the great prostitute who corrupted the earth by her adulteries. He has avenged on her the blood of his servants. 3And again they shouted: “Hallelujah! The smoke from her goes up for ever and ever.”
A Realized Eschatological View and Commentary of Revelation 19:3: The Expression used in v. 3 is also used to describe the Historical Destruction of Edom.
Referring to the destruction of the city of Babylon, John uses the expression, “The smoke from her goes up for ever and ever.” Similar imagery is found in Isaiah 34:9-10 referring to the destruction of the land of Edom. Here Isaiah threatens, “Edom’s streams will be turned into pitch, her dust into burning sulfur; her land will become blazing pitch! It will not be quenched night and day; its smoke will rise forever.”
Robert, Hubert. The Fire of Rome, 18 July 64 AD. Musee des Beaux-Arts Andre Malraux Le Havre, France.
Revelation 19:3 Full Preterist Commentary: Aion and Olam mean Age or Age Lasting, not Forever.
The Greek word used for, “for ever and ever” in v. 3 is aion. This is the Greek equivalent of the Hebrew word Olam found in Isaiah 34:10. Both words signify an unknown interval of great length. These words are frequently translated age, though they may be used to signify an eternal duration if the subject or context in which they are used requires it.2 The subject and context of these verses do not require these words to be translated forever. In Isaiah 34:9-10, the prophet states that the fires in the land of Edom will not be quenched. Because Isaiah is talking about the destruction of the land of Edom at the hands of its enemies, an actual historical event, the fact that the fire will not be quenched seems to indicate that it will not be intentionally put out, not that it will literally continue to burn forever. Unquenchable fire is an expression that is used to describe fires that become so great that they cannot be put out. This expression implies that the fire will only stop burning once it has run out of fuel. These verses might more accurately be translated “its smoke will go up for the age of ages.” Both Edom and Jerusalem are described in this way in order to draw a poetic connection between the lake of fire in the realm of the dead and the current state of Edom and Jerusalem after their destruction.
The city of Jerusalem burned to the ground in A.D. 70.
A Preterist Interpretation and Commentary of Revelation 19:3: Eternal Recollection of a Fallen City . . .
As predicted in v. 3, the city of Jerusalem and its temple were razed and burned to the ground. Many Jews today still lament this tragic loss. During Jewish weddings, the groom breaks a wine glass after saying his vows. This custom is meant to signify the destruction of the second temple and is still performed to commemorate this war.
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I believe you misunderstood my quote:
"Christ is only spoken of in scripture as returning to Earth with angels to destroy sinners in a flame of fire during Armageddon. Read the following scriptures: 2 Peter 3:8-13 ; Matthew 25:31-34; Matthew 25:41; Matthew 13:40-42.
All of my posted verses speak of the same event that your Thessalonians scripture speaks of. Christ did not return to Earth when Jerusalem was destroyed, and he didn't destroy it. The Romans did. Therefore, your scripture couldn't be speaking of Jerusalem's destruction any more than the scriptures I posted.
Do those who refute you believe they are living in heaven or in the New World now? Because that's the aftermath of events in these scriptures, per the scriptures-See 2 Peter 3. So, do they think this is the New World Peter spoke of. And if they are in heaven, where's Christ?"
You might have misunderstood my quote. I don't know, as I don't know your thoughts. Nor am I aware of your knowledge of scripture, as we are strangers. The point I made was not that all Bible scriptures that speak of Christ return ONLY read he is bringing angels, and fire with him, and not using the SWORD, which is not literal but symbolic. The point I made is that this scripture in Thessalonians under consideration:
"when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in blazing fire.
He will inflict vengeance on those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will suffer the penalty of eternal destruction, separated from the presence of the Lord and the glory of His might, on the day He comes to be glorified in His saints and regarded with wonder by all who have believed, including you who have believed our testimony."
The scripture is speaking of Christ coming to judge the world of ungodly people and destroy them; and it is not referencing the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70, as some readers/posters here claim. That scripture speaks of the same event as the scriptures I previously posted from Matthew's gospel and Peter's letter. All those scriptures read essentially the same way. All speak of Christ's return, in plain language, to destroy the world of ungodly men.
There are many more than three scriptures that speak of Christ's return in plain language. Thus making your statement here either unclear to readers, or inaccurate. Your statement, "The three plain descriptions about the Return of Jesus; Zechariah 14:3, Matthew 24:30 and Revelation 19:11-21 do not mention fire at all, He destroys the attacking armies by the Sword of His Word and the bodies are not burned; the birds feast on them."
Included in the scriptures that speak of Christ's return in plain language are the Thessalonian scriptures under consideration, and the three or four I posted earlier for our readers. ALL of those clearly speak of Christ's return. But if you cannot see that, there is nothing more for me show you about them. They are written as clearly as I can speak.
Thessalonians reads: "They will suffer the penalty of eternal destruction, separated from the presence of the Lord and the glory of His might, on the day He comes to be glorified in His saints and regarded with wonder by all who have believed."
Why would Christ be regarded with MORE wonder by the SAINTS than the SAINTS regard him right now? Why would the destruction of the saints' Jewish relatives in AD 70, and the destruction of Jerusalem cause believers to regard Christ further? Why would they regard Christ all the more because their temple and their unchristian relatives were killed? Yet Christ will be regarded with WONDER when believers see him.
Also, Christ is already glorified. So why does the scripture say, "on the day He comes to be glorified in His saints?" That's not because Jerusalem was destroyed. However, with the destruction of the wicked on Earth, and the establishment of the Kingdom of God on Earth, both Christ and his Father will be further glorified.
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