Salvation Cannot be Lost

Phil W · Oct 18, 2019

FreeGrace2 said:
I quoted from your post:
"Phil W said: ↑
It is written..."We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not." (1 John 5:18)
Your POV seems to include those not begotten of God as "believers".
Is that correct?".....

.....This was my response to your post:
"No. Rather, quite incorrect. That means "wrong". Or, "in error". "
You asked if your view of my POV was "correct". When I responded with "quite incorrect", I further expanded by saying "wrong" and "in error".
All in reference to your opinion of my POV.

Thanks for the clarification.
As you do believe that sinners are indeed born of God, then I guess His seed within you cannot keep you from committing sin as the scripture stated.
What version of the bible are you using to validate that belief which is counter to what the KJV espouses?

That's only your pathetic opinion. I've never defended sin and you know it. So knock it off.

Isn't the proof of your ministry "sinning Christians"?
You certainly disagree with those who fight against sin. And you manage to twist every proof of life with total obedience to God as an error or wrong.
Especially your POV that exhortations not to commit sin are an admission of NOT stopping from sinning...like your next verses.

Here are some more verses about sin that sink your sinful ship.
Heb 12:4 - In your struggle against sin, you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood. Written to God's children.
Heb 13:16 - And do not forget to do good and to share with others, for with such sacrifices God is pleased.
Since you claim that believers are NOT sinners, why would the author tell these supposedly sinless believers to "not forget to do good"?? If one isn't sinning, then they ARE already doing good. They can't do otherwise.

So they continue believing.
Being reminded to look both way before stepping into the street doesn't mean they are not already doing so.
It is just a reminder...and a way to weed our the unbelievers.

Heb 13:17 - Have confidence in your leaders and submit to their authority, because they keep watch over you as those who must give an account. Do this so that their work will be a joy, not a burden, for that would be of no benefit to you.
Why would the Bible tell God's children to submit to leaders and those in authority, since you claim God's children can't sin??

Ever played organized sports?
Don't the coaches train, practice, and drill the teams to insure peek performance during the real games?
Our scriptures are our "coaches".
They are to be heeded and obeyed...or you are off the "team".

James 3:2 - We all stumble in many ways. Anyone who is never at fault in what they say is perfect, able to keep their whole body in check.

Better check the context.
James was dealing with a "too many cooks" problem. Counter teachings; salt and fresh water from the same fountain.
(It did make it easy to see who was a false believer though.)

I suppose your defense will be that "stumbling" isn't actual sin. And then you'll focus on the word "perfect", which really means mature or complete. Not sinless, as you opine.

According to the context, the stumblers were those getting their information from the devil. (v. 15)
And if the writer meant for us to think that those who were in order were "mature" or "complete", James would have said just that.
If a man is complete and mature, he is perfect, in that which he has matured or completed.
Your POV denies the efficacy of the death and resurrection of the Lord.

FreeGrace2 · Oct 18, 2019

Phil W said:
Thanks for the clarification.

From what you then post, it is clear that nothing I post is clear to you. Sadly.

As you do believe that sinners are indeed born of God, then I guess His seed within you cannot keep you from committing sin as the scripture stated.

Fully nonsense. Sinners are born by their parents, who are also sinners.

What is born of God is a new nature, one that CANNOT sin.

What version of the bible are you using to validate that belief which is counter to what the KJV espouses?

There is nothing I believe about the Bible that the KJV counters.

But, just for chuckles, prove your claim.

Isn't the proof of your ministry "sinning Christians"?

Paul refers to such in numerous places in Scripture. Which I've shared with you, and you have cowardly ignored, rather than address.

You certainly disagree with those who fight against sin

.
Anyone who thinks that I advocate fighting FOR sin is a nutcase.

And you manage to twist every proof of life with total obedience to God as an error or wrong.

Since I've never done this bit of absurdity, all you're doing is LYING again. Which is sin in and of itself.

Especially your POV that exhortations not to commit sin are an admission of NOT stopping from sinning...like your next verses.

Whether you are delirious or rational, you are going to sin until you die.

So they continue believing.
Being reminded to look both way before stepping into the street doesn't mean they are not already doing so.

If the context is that people ALWAYS DO look both ways, then there is NO reason to "remind" them. But that FACT seems to be lost on you.

It is just a reminder...and a way to weed our the unbelievers.

Wrong. The only way to weed out unbelievers is to discover what they believe about getting into heaven. That does it every time.

Ever played organized sports?
Don't the coaches train, practice, and drill the teams to insure peek performance during the real games?

Yes. And irrelevant to our discussion.

Our scriptures are our "coaches".

If a saved person never sins, and is in fact incapable of sinning, as you have claimed, then there is NO NEED for coaches.

But it seems this FACT is lost on you.

They are to be heeded and obeyed...or you are off the "team".

Right. You don't believe what Jesus said about those He gives eternal life.

Another FACT that has been lost on you.

Better check the context.
James was dealing with a "too many cooks" problem. Counter teachings; salt and fresh water from the same fountain.
(It did make it easy to see who was a false believer though.)

I'm not surprised that this would be your take on James. Many people, not just you, have miserably failed to understand his simple point.

According to the context, the stumblers were those getting their information from the devil. (v. 15)
And if the writer meant for us to think that those who were in order were "mature" or "complete", James would have said just that.

Actually, he DID. It's just been poorly translated into English.

But those who do their research already know that.

If a man is complete and mature, he is perfect, in that which he has matured or completed.

If a man is complete and mature, he is complete and mature. That's basically what your statement means. Because the Greek word doesn't mean sinless, as you try to insinuate.

It means to be complete or mature.

Your POV denies the efficacy of the death and resurrection of the Lord.

No it doesn't and no you can't explain how it would.

Christ's death wasn't for one's lifestyle, as you presume. It was for paying the sin debt of mankind, so that God could have mercy on everyone. Rom 11:32 - For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Phil W · Oct 18, 2019

FreeGrace2 said:
From what you then post, it is clear that nothing I post is clear to you. Sadly.
Gladly, I will not "buy" excuses for sin.

What is born of God is a new nature, one that CANNOT sin.

Click to expand...

Agreed, but you don't believe the old "you" was killed before you were "raised with Christ to walk in newness of life".
You seem to believe there are now two of "you".

There is nothing I believe about the Bible that the KJV counters.
But, just for chuckles, prove your claim.

Click to expand...

Why won't you answer my question as to which version of the bible you are using?
.

Anyone who thinks that I advocate fighting FOR sin is a nutcase.

Click to expand...

Your misinterpretation of Romans 6:7 is the best example.
It is written..."For he that is dead is freed from sin."
You imply incorrectly that we are only freed from the penalty for sin and not from sin itself.
That is a defense of sin.

Whether you are delirious or rational, you are going to sin until you die.

Click to expand...

Paul wrote..."For the wages of sin is death;..." in Rom 6:23.
He also wrote..."Some men's sins are open beforehand, going before to judgment; (death, as per Rom 6:23), and some men they follow after." (1 Tim 5:24)
My judgement, death for my sins, occurred when I was immersed into Christ and into His death, burial, and thanks be to God, His resurrection. (Rom 6:3-6)
For me that is dead is freed from sin!
I've been reborn of Godly seed: seed that cannot bear devilish fruit. (1 John 3:9-10)

If the context is that people ALWAYS DO look both ways, then there is NO reason to "remind" them. But that FACT seems to be lost on you.

Click to expand...

Does reminding them mean they don't already "look both ways"?
Do you pay your taxes?
Are you not reminded to do so every year?
The epistles are read by many folks who are not yet aware of some of the finer intricacies of Christian living.
They have a conscience from God for the major commonly known sins, but what about the customs like "No woman preachers", or Don't all speak in tongues at the same time"?
By inserting "standards" into his writings, the real believers can identify who is really "of God", and perhaps more importantly, who is not.

Wrong. The only way to weed out unbelievers is to discover what they believe about getting into heaven. That does it every time.

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If they think the promises of Christ are applicable to the sheep who don't follow Him, you are correct.

Yes. And irrelevant to our discussion.

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I'm sorry you are so closed minded.

If a saved person never sins, and is in fact incapable of sinning, as you have claimed, then there is NO NEED for coaches.
But it seems this FACT is lost on you.

Click to expand...

I guess it IS relevant !
Perhaps there is no need for "STOP" signs either.
But doesn't seeing them help you drive more safely?

Right. You don't believe what Jesus said about those He gives eternal life.
Another FACT that has been lost on you.

Click to expand...

I know we both believe John 10:28, but you don't seem to believe John 10:27..."My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:"
Sinners aren't "following Him".

Actually, he DID. It's just been poorly translated into English.

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Because you cling to disobedience to God you will find fault with nearly all of the uses of the word "perfect" in the NT.
It doesn't fit your model of sinning believers.

If a man is complete and mature, he is complete and mature. That's basically what your statement means. Because the Greek word doesn't mean sinless, as you try to insinuate.

Click to expand...

"Complete" and "mature", but not perfect?
What is beyond complete and mature?

No it doesn't and no you can't explain how it would.

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By denying that we can be "freed from sin", the only ones that profit from Jesus' death and resurrection are the sacrificial animals.
You are still living OT Jewish "sin and atone, sin and atone, sin and atone" life styles.
Jesus said "the truth will make you free", in John 9:32.
In verse 34 He said what we can be freed from..."Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin."
The truth can free us from committing sin.

Christ's death wasn't for one's lifestyle, as you presume. It was for paying the sin debt of mankind, so that God could have mercy on everyone. Rom 11:32 - For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

My "turn from" sin and rebirth of Godly seed has sure changed my "life style".

JLB777 · Oct 19, 2019

FreeGrace2 said:
The answer is a simple YES. Most peope would have understood that from my posts.

I understand your post just fine, are teaching that a Christian who hates his brother continues to have eternal life, even though the scripture plainly says otherwise.

Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:15

You have said they same thing about Christians who take the mark of the beast, that they also still continue to have eternal life.

You do this because you misunderstand and willing distort 1 scripture from John 10:28.

In addition you ignore John 10:27 which is what qualifies a person for being His sheep who will receive eternal life, after they “hear and obey His voice”, which results in following Him faithfully, and then He gives them eternal life.

My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.
John 10:27-28

As many have shown you, His sheep who follow for a while then disobey Him, in which they no longer hear His voice and no longer follow Him, they no longer “know Him”.

Inheriting eternal life is the result of hearing and obeying Him, in while we follow Him faithfully to the end.

He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 2:4

Those who do not remain in Christ, are cast into the fire and burned.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

Here is how we are instructed to remain in Christ.

Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24

JLB

FreeGrace2 · Oct 19, 2019

Phil W said:
My "turn from" sin and rebirth of Godly seed has sure changed my "life style".

What you don't seem to understand is that turning from sin is an individual choice, per sin. It's not a one time deal, as you suggest.

And I've proven that believers continue to sin. Not that I endorse that activity, but it is the truth.

That's why the Bible tells us to confess OUR sins. The Bible doesn't exclude your sins from being confessed.

FreeGrace2 · Oct 19, 2019

JLB777 said:
I understand your post just fine, are teaching that a Christian who hates his brother continues to have eternal life, even though the scripture plainly says otherwise.

Why have you continued to ignore my question to you?

I fully understand your inexcusable twisting of Scripture to fit your own opinions and ideas, but the truth is that once given eternal life, the recipient CANNOT perish.

Not answering my question after I HAVE answered your question proves you to be a dishonest hypocrite.

Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:15

As I pointed out, if murder results in losing eternal life, then John wouldn't have needed to add "abiding" in that verse. The meaning would have been absolutely clear without the "abiding".

So we need to understand what he was meaning. So, to "abide in eternal life" is to live in the new life (eternal life) that we have been given.

Therefore, a believer who murders isn't living in that new life.

Your attempt to twist the Scriptures to say something different, AND which contradicts many other verses, is unconscionable.

You have said they same thing about Christians who take the mark of the beast, that they also still continue to have eternal life.

Wrong. As usual. I NEVER EVER said Christians will take the mark of the beast. That's just your own fantasy.

What I have taught clearly is that by the time the beast sets up the mark, those believers who are disobedient and unfaithful will ALREADY be killed by divine discipline (1 Cor 11:30) and will not be able to take the mark.

Why don't you read the posts of others B4 you make such silly mistakes?

You do this because you misunderstand and willing distort 1 scripture from John 10:28.

Interesting. You have NEVER EVER explained what v.28 means.

In addition you ignore John 10:27 which is what qualifies a person for being His sheep who will receive eternal life

This absolutely proves that you can't read straight. There are NO WORDS in v.27 about what "qualifies" to be a sheep. Zero.

That's your problem. With all your false doctrines. Failing to read correctly.

v.27 is clearly a description of what Jesus' sheep DO, not anything about HOW to become a sheep. But as usual, you are reading into (forcing) the verse to make it say what you want it to say.

And v28 is a straight forward "action" and "result of that action" statement.

Jesus gives eternal life (the action) and the recipients of that action SHALL NEVER PERISH (result of that action).

Period.

Anyone who disagrees with this only proves that they can't read.

after they “hear and obey His voice”, which results in following Him faithfully, and then He gives them eternal life.

Grade schoolers know better and can read the verse correctly.

My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.
John 10:27-28

"my sheep hear...and follow Me". OK, where is the qualifier for BECOMING a sheep here? Not here.

Jesus is describing WHAT His sheep DO. Which every grade schooler would understand.

And v.28 is an "action" and the "results of that action". Which every grade schooler would understand.

And easily.

As many have shown you, His sheep who follow for a while then disobey Him, in which they no longer hear His voice and no longer follow Him, they no longer “know Him”.

Click to expand...

There are quite a lot of believers who don't really know Him.

Such as those who directly opposite what He said in v.28.

Inheriting eternal life is the result of hearing and obeying Him, in while we follow Him faithfully to the end.

Click to expand...

Obviously neither v.27 nor v.28 says this. So you don't have ANY evidence for your fantasy.

He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 2:4

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I agree. And you continue to demonstrate that you don't believe Him. That's worse than not keeping His commandments.

Those who do not remain in Christ, are cast into the fire and burned.

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All you can do is conflate an agricultural metaphor with other verses to come up with the false doctrine that a sealed believer can become unsealed.

Yet, Scripture NEVER EVER speaks of a sealed believer becoming an unsealed unbeliever.

And the sealing with the Holy Spirit is a GUARANTEE of the believer's inheritance for the day of redemption as God's possession. Sure doesn't sound like what you believe.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

Click to expand...

Yes, there's that "abiding" word again. It's about fellowship, a concept that seems quite lacking in Arminian circles.

Here is how we are instructed to remain in Christ.

Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24

Click to expand...

How come this verse says NOTHING about "how to remain in Christ"?

Instead, it's about fellowship between the believer and Christ.

When a believer "keeps His commandments", he is "abiding in Him". And "by this, we know that He abides in us".

In fact, John makes very clear HOW this works: "by the Spirit whom He has given us".

Right back to Eph 1:13,14
13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,
14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

The verse says exactly what I claim.

Unlike your claims.

Phil W · Oct 19, 2019

FreeGrace2 said:
What you don't seem to understand is that turning from sin is an individual choice, per sin. It's not a one time deal, as you suggest.

Why turn from one sin at a time when you have gracefully been provided the means to turn from all sin at the same time?

And I've proven that believers continue to sin. Not that I endorse that activity, but it is the truth.

You've only proved it to yourself.

That's why the Bible tells us to confess OUR sins. The Bible doesn't exclude your sins from being confessed.

Been that way...before baptism for the remission of sins...since the days of John the baptist.
Do you also get baptized again for the remission of individual sins after every act of disobedience to God?

To bad you don't believe rebirth provides a new creature.

FreeGrace2 · Oct 19, 2019

Phil W said:
Why turn from one sin at a time when you have gracefully been provided the means to turn from all sin at the same time?

You have no evidence for that.

I said:
"And I've proven that believers continue to sin. Not that I endorse that activity, but it is the truth."

You've only proved it to yourself.

The Bible proves it. Which includes you, too. 1 John 1:8,10.

In fact, your claim that you don't sin is a LIE, according to the Bible. Which is a sin.

Been that way...before baptism for the remission of sins...since the days of John the baptist.
Do you also get baptized again for the remission of individual sins after every act of disobedience to God?

No, the Bible never says such things.

To bad you don't believe rebirth provides a new creature.

Again, you LIE. I've already and repeatedly explained the new birth IS a "new creature", according to 2 Cor 5:17.

And it's ONLY the new nature that doesn't sin. But you deny what the Bible teaches; that the believer still has the sinful nature to contend with.

You talk like someone who is in heaven. They don't sin. Why? Because they were separated from their sinful nature when they physically died.

You are a very mixed up person.

Does your pastor teach what you believe? And what about the congregation? They all on board with what you believe as well?

I've given plenty of verses that have refuted your ideas.

And you never even tried to explain how they don't mean what I pointed out that they say.

Ostriches bury their heads in the sand so they won't see the danger. You've done the same.

Phil W · Oct 19, 2019

FreeGrace2 said:
You have no evidence for that.

I have the lives of my brothers "in Christ" and myself.

I said:
"And I've proven that believers continue to sin. Not that I endorse that activity, but it is the truth."
The Bible proves it. Which includes you, too. 1 John 1:8,10.
In fact, your claim that you don't sin is a LIE, according to the Bible. Which is a sin.

If my claim is a sin, then 1 John 1:7 and 9 are lies too.
They both say All our sins/unrighteousness can be washed away.
I'm just stating the results.
BTW, you have not proved anything .

No, the Bible never says such things.

This just brings up the "unanswerable" question...what version of the bible are you using?

Again, you LIE. I've already and repeatedly explained the new birth IS a "new creature", according to 2 Cor 5:17.

Why then don't you believe the whole verse..."old things are passed away"?
That includes nature.

And it's ONLY the new nature that doesn't sin. But you deny what the Bible teaches; that the believer still has the sinful nature to contend with.

And again I point out your doctrine of the "split personality".
Two natures in one!

You talk like someone who is in heaven. They don't sin. Why? Because they were separated from their sinful nature when they physically died.

My "life is hid with Christ in God". (Col 3:3)
And I was killed when I was "immersed" into the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ, at my water baptism. (Rom 6:3-7)

Does your pastor teach what you believe? And what about the congregation? They all on board with what you believe as well?

Everyone that has permanently turned from sin "believes".

I've given plenty of verses that have refuted your ideas.

As have I, but mine lead to righteousness and your's are used to incorporate sin into the body of Christ.

And you never even tried to explain how they don't mean what I pointed out that they say.
Ostriches bury their heads in the sand so they won't see the danger. You've done the same.

I've certainly tried to show you that God won't tolerate sin.
But it doesn't fit the model of "sinning Christian" you idolize.

FreeGrace2 · Oct 19, 2019

Phil W said:
I have the lives of my brothers "in Christ" and myself.

People can claim anything. That's hardly evidence. I had asked earlier if your wife would agree with your claims. No response.

If my claim is a sin, then 1 John 1:7 and 9 are lies too.

No, they are not. v.9 is the SOLUTION to our sins. It allows us to be cleansed from our sins for fellowship, a concept that Arminians seems totally unaware of.

They both say All our sins/unrighteousness can be washed away.

Sure. When confessed. btw, one can only confess what they KNOW. But God goes the extra mile and cleanses from the sins you don't realize.

BTW, you have not proved anything .

I have. You deny the evidence.

This just brings up the "unanswerable" question...what version of the bible are you using?

Oh, here we go again. The KJ VERSION isn't the original autograph and God didn't inspire that one translation. And it was translated from the 10th Century, giving rise to more scribal typos. More recent translations have the advantage of 2nd Century manuscripts.

But, btw, since you want to hide behind your fav version, please explain the difference between my views and the translation from the KJ VERSION.

Why then don't you believe the whole verse..."old things are passed away"?
That includes nature.

Are you a mind reader? The verse says NOTHING about the old nature. That's just your ADDED opinion to the verse.

The "old things" refer to the old way of life.

The phrase "all things have become new" refers to several things.

1. the believer is in a new family.
2. the believer has a new way of looking at people. See v.16
3. the beiveer should have a new motivation.
4. iow, the believer's perspective should have dramatically changed.

btw, Paul is not suggesting that Christians will automatically have this perspective or will live accordingly.

And, btw, you have not adequately defended your claim that born again persons will not sin because their sin nature has been removed, from Scripture that CLEARLY states that believers still struggle with sin. That wouldn't be so if your view were correct. But it isn't. And you can't defend yourself.

And again I point out your doctrine of the "split personality".
Two natures in one!

You don't have to believe Gal 5:17 if you don't want to. But that's on you. But I do.

And Paul clearly explained that in Romans 7.

My "life is hid with Christ in God". (Col 3:3)

Please explain what that means to you.

And I was killed when I was "immersed" into the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ, at my water baptism. (Rom 6:3-7)

Your water baptism is just all wet. It is SYMBOLIC of the baptism that saves, that is, Spirit baptism. You are just so confused!

Everyone that has permanently turned from sin "believes".

No living person CAN permanently turn from sin.

Believers continue to sin. Which perfectly explains WHY we have the command to be filled with the Spirit, to walk by means of the Spirit, to NOT grieve the Spirit and to NOT quench the Spirit.

These 4 commands are NOT for unbelievers, but for believers. And NONE of them would be relevant if believers don't sin.

As have I, but mine lead to righteousness and your's are used to incorporate sin into the body of Christ.

This is just delusional.

I've certainly tried to show you that God won't tolerate sin.

You didn't need to. I already know that. I'm VERY aware of Heb 12 and God's discipline of His children. Why aren't you aware of that?

But it doesn't fit the model of "sinning Christian" you idolize.

Oh, so now you're making up the stupid nonsense that I idolize Christians who sin.

You're just a very shallow person who can't defend himself, can't answer verses that refute your claims, so you have to throw ad hominems at me.

That is pathetic.

Can you explain why Paul wrote Gal 5:17 - For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want.

Depending on context, "flesh" can refer to the sinful nature.

Here, Paul explains what the sinful nature desires, which is contrary to what the Spirit desires, which is sinlessness. The Spirit indwells our new nature, obviously.

Where does this "conflict" come from, if the sinful nature has been killed and removed from the believer? That's what you cannot explain or answer.

Or the previous verse:
16 - So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh.

This is a clear admonishment on how to avoid sinning (gratifying the desires of the flesh); by walking in the power of the Spirit.

Your view is that all saved people can ONLY walk in the Spirit, but we have a verse here that is crystal clear about how to avoid sinning.

And you just dismiss it as if it weren't true.

Phil W · Oct 19, 2019

FreeGrace2 said:
People can claim anything. That's hardly evidence. I had asked earlier if your wife would agree with your claims. No response.

How do you prove you are a believer?
I'll prove my faith by my works and you can prove yours without any works.

No, they are not. v.9 is the SOLUTION to our sins. It allows us to be cleansed from our sins for fellowship, a concept that Arminians seems totally unaware of.

If we are cleansed form all sin, why can't we say so?
Fact is, we can as long as we walk in God...light.
And thanks be to Gd for enabling that walk.

Sure. When confessed. btw, one can only confess what they KNOW. But God goes the extra mile and cleanses from the sins you don't realize.

Every sin is "realized". (James 1:14-15)

Oh, here we go again. The KJ VERSION isn't the original autograph and God didn't inspire that one translation. And it was translated from the 10th Century, giving rise to more scribal typos. More recent translations have the advantage of 2nd Century manuscripts.

What do you use? (For the third time...)

But, btw, since you want to hide behind your fav version, please explain the difference between my views and the translation from the KJ VERSION.

Your version has obviously added to Romans 6:7.

Are you a mind reader? The verse says NOTHING about the old nature. That's just your ADDED opinion to the verse.

Kinda like "the penalty for sins" in Rom 6:7 of your version of a bible?

The "old things" refer to the old way of life.

Does your version of a bible leave out the "all things are made new"?

The phrase "all things have become new" refers to several things.

Sure does, "ALL things"!
Including nature.

btw, Paul is not suggesting that Christians will automatically have this perspective or will live accordingly.

Thanks be to God for Godly pastors and apostles and prophets and deacons and biblical exhortations and admonitions and warnings to guide us.

And, btw, you have not adequately defended your claim that born again persons will not sin because their sin nature has been removed, from Scripture that CLEARLY states that believers still struggle with sin. That wouldn't be so if your view were correct. But it isn't. And you can't defend yourself.

I've explained it multiple times but you are not a believer.

You don't have to believe Gal 5:17 if you don't want to. But that's on you. But I do.

I do believe it, but I see it from the perspective of one walking in the Spirit and you see it as one walking in the flesh.
Why don't you believe Gal 5:24?

And Paul clearly explained that in Romans 7.

The parts of Rom 7 that you use to say Paul is still in the flesh were refuted by verses in Romans 6 and Romans 8.

Please explain what that means to you.(My "life is hid with Christ in God". (Col 3:3)

I better include the contextual verses to help me, as your version of a bible may have something different.
" If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory
5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:
7 In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them. (Col 3:1-7)
I was raised with Christ after having been crucified with Him. (Rom 6:3-6)
Whatever was "mine" before my death is His now.
I can now keep the old nature/me that used to commit sin dead.
When Christ come back, I will return with Him.

Your water baptism is just all wet. It is SYMBOLIC of the baptism that saves, that is, Spirit baptism. You are just so confused!

Those tricked into thinking it is only symbolic will never experience life with Christ, walking in the light/God, freedom from sin, and many other benefits of knowing Christ.

No living person CAN permanently turn from sin.

Hence the need for our inclusion into Christ's death by water baptism.
Remember, I posted 1 Tim 5:24..."Some men's sins are open beforehand, going before to judgment; and some men they follow after."
I received my due death at my judgment.

Believers continue to sin. Which perfectly explains WHY we have the command to be filled with the Spirit, to walk by means of the Spirit, to NOT grieve the Spirit and to NOT quench the Spirit.

If you are right, what is the point of telling the unable to quit doing things?

Can you explain why Paul wrote Gal 5:17 - For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want.

Not having been there when Paul wrote it, I can only opine it was because some were saying they were believers while still accommodating sin in their lives.

This is a clear admonishment on how to avoid sinning (gratifying the desires of the flesh); by walking in the power of the Spirit.

You got that right.
Do you suppose Paul is ordering the impossible?
I don't.

Your view is that all saved people can ONLY walk in the Spirit, but we have a verse here that is crystal clear about how to avoid sinning.

"Can", and will.
Why keep disobeying the exhortations of an apostle of God?

And you just dismiss it as if it weren't true.

Frankly, as you yourself say I am wrong about my belief in obedience to God, are you now changing your mind about its possibility?
I hope so.

FreeGrace2 · Oct 20, 2019

Phil W said:
How do you prove you are a believer?

That isn't actually "provable". Evidence can be shown, but that isn't, in itself, proof.

I'll prove my faith by my works and you can prove yours without any works.

No you won't prove anything. But you can do what James was writing about. You can SHOW your faith, so others can see the evidence for it.

btw, why are you all of a sudden changing the subject to works now?

If we are cleansed form all sin, why can't we say so?

You take it way too far. Much farther than the Bible teaches.

The believer IS cleansed from his sins WHEN he confesses them. But there's still MORE animal feces you're going to walk into.

I know you never addressed my explanation of John 13 and Jesus' sidebar with Peter about feet washing. Back then, it wasn't a ceremony, it was NECESSARY. Those who didn't get their feet washed, after walking the paths of the day, OFFENDED everyone in whose home was visited.

When Jesus told Peter, "Unless I wash your feet, you will have no part with Me", he wasn't talking about loss of salvation, or not even having a relationship with Him. He was talking about fellowship, because He had just previously stated that all the disciples were SAVED except Judas.

So that's what confess is for. To restore fellowship with the Lord. It's for believers.

If you are so unaware of your own condition that you haven't been confessing any sins for a very long period of time, then Isa 64:6 applies to you.

Fact is, we can as long as we walk in God...light.

Yes, and ONLY as long as we walk in God.

But that's your delusion. You think that state is permanent because you think your sinful nature was removed from you. No, it wasn't.

And thanks be to Gd for enabling that walk.

Amen! 2 Pet 1:3

Every sin is "realized". (James 1:14-15)

I have no idea what you mean here.

What do you use? (For the third time...)
Your version has obviously added to Romans 6:7.

New International Version
because anyone who has died has been set free from sin.

New Living Translation
For when we died with Christ we were set free from the power of sin.

English Standard Version
For one who has died has been set free from sin.

Berean Study Bible
For anyone who has died has been freed from sin.

Berean Literal Bible
For the one having died has been freed from sin.

New American Standard Bible
for he who has died is freed from sin.

New King James Version
For he who has died has been freed from sin.

King James Bible
For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Christian Standard Bible
since a person who has died is freed from sin.

Contemporary English Version
We know sin doesn't have power over dead people.

Good News Translation
For when we die, we are set free from the power of sin.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
since a person who has died is freed from sin's claims.

International Standard Version
For the person who has died has been freed from sin.

NET Bible
(For someone who has died has been freed from sin.)

New Heart English Bible
For he who has died has been freed from sin.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
For whoever is dead has been freed from sin.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
The person who has died has been freed from sin.

New American Standard 1977
for he who has died is freed from sin.

Jubilee Bible 2000
For he that is dead is justified from sin.

King James 2000 Bible
For he that is dead is freed from sin.

American King James Version
For he that is dead is freed from sin.

American Standard Version
for he that hath died is justified from sin.

Douay-Rheims Bible
For he that is dead is justified from sin.

Darby Bible Translation
For he that has died is justified from sin.

English Revised Version
for he that hath died is justified from sin.

Webster's Bible Translation
For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Weymouth New Testament
for he who has paid the penalty of death stands absolved from his sin.

World English Bible
For he who has died has been freed from sin.

Young's Literal Translation
for he who hath died hath been set free from the sin.

Kinda like "the penalty for sins" in Rom 6:7 of your version of a bible?

I'm just real sorry for you; that you can't understand that it's the penalty of sin that the believer HAS BEEN SET FREE from. Notice the past tense here?

Once again, I'm going to mansplain the 3 tenses of salvation to you.

Past tense salvation: was saved from the penalty of sin. Called Justification.
Present tense salvation: being saved from the power of sin. Called Sanctification.
Future tense salvation: will be saved from the presence of sin. Called Glorification.

It appears you don't understand any of these tenses as they relate to salvation.

You think you have been glorified. Not yet, you ain't.

Does your version of a bible leave out the "all things are made new"?

Nope. It's there, all right. What specifically DIED "on the day that" Adam and the woman ate the forbidden fruit? Did they keel over? No. They died spiritually. That means their human spirit died "on that day".

So, when a person believes, what gets born AGAIN or RE-generated is the dead human spirit. So that's what is being referred to by "all things are made new".

If you think your very stinky sinful nature was made new, you got it all wrong.

Sure does, "ALL things"!
Including nature.

I just mansplained it to you. Yes, even the human spirit. But you can call it a nature if you want to. I believe that is where the Holy Spirit indwells, since it sure doesn't make sense to think He takes up dwelling in your very stinky human nature.

Thanks be to God for Godly pastors and apostles and prophets and deacons and biblical exhortations and admonitions and warnings to guide us.

I'm pretty sure you won't admit what kind of church you attend, but my bet is one of the Pentecostal Holiness ones.

I've explained it multiple times but you are not a believer.

You are violating forum rules by that very stupid comment. And you keep claiming that you never sin. But I suppose you'll just wave this off by claiming it's no sin to break human rules. Right?

I do believe it, but I see it from the perspective of one walking in the Spirit and you see it as one walking in the flesh.

I've explained the dynamics of the Christian life so many times, I'm just sad that it still hasn't sunken into your skull yet. Very sad.

Why don't you believe Gal 5:24?

Why do you say that I don't believe that verse?

"And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts."

What you lack is proper understanding of Scripture. There are 2 kinds of sanctification.

1. positional, meaning being separated on the basis of being IN CHRIST (Eph 1:13,14).
2. experiential, meaning being separated by our lifestyle.

The positional is true of every believer, on the basis of being IN Christ.
The experiential is true ONLY OF believers whose lifestyle is actually separated.

You asked why I don't believe Gal 5:24, which is a faulty question, since I do.

Why do you not believe GAl 5:16 and 17?

The parts of Rom 7 that you use to say Paul is still in the flesh were refuted by verses in Romans 6 and Romans 8.

No they were not, and your flimsy claim has no evidence to back it up.

I never said Paul is "still in the flesh" anyway. I said he continued to struggle with his own flesh.

Which is why he wrote to be filled with the Spirit. For your arrogant view, you don't need the command. You think you always are. The Bible NEVER teaches this.

Which is why he wrote to walk by means of the Spirit. For your arrogant view, ou don't need the command. You think you always do. The Bible NEVER teaches this.

Which is why he wrote to NOT grieve the Spirit. For your arrogant view, you don't need the command. You think you never do. The Bible NEVER teaches this.

Which is why he wrote to NOT quench the Spirit. For your arrogant view, you don't need the command. You think you never do. The Bible NEVER teaches this.

I better include the contextual verses to help me, as your version of a bible may have something different.
" If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory
5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:
7 In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them. (Col 3:1-7)
I was raised with Christ after having been crucified with Him. (Rom 6:3-6)
Whatever was "mine" before my death is His now.
I can now keep the old nature/me that used to commit sin dead.
When Christ come back, I will return with Him.

Just notice what Paul commands believers to DO. If your view were correct, all believers would already be doing all this all the time, and he wouldn't have had need to even mention it.

Those tricked into thinking it is only symbolic will never experience life with Christ, walking in the light/God, freedom from sin, and many other benefits of knowing Christ.

This is just delusional.

New International Version
and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also--not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

New Living Translation
And that water is a picture of baptism, which now saves you, not by removing dirt from your body, but as a response to God from a clean conscience. It is effective because of the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Berean Study Bible
And this water symbolizes the baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body, but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Berean Literal Bible
which also prefigures the baptism now saving you, not a putting away of thefilth of flesh, but the demand of a good conscience toward God, through theresurrection of Jesus Christ,

New King James Version
There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Good News Translation
which was a symbol pointing to baptism, which now saves you. It is not the washing off of bodily dirt, but the promise made to God from a good conscience. It saves you through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

International Standard Version
Baptism, which is symbolized by that water, now saves you also, not by removing dirt from the body, but by asking God for a clear conscience based on the resurrection of Jesus, the Messiah,

NET Bible
And this prefigured baptism, which now saves you--not the washing off of physical dirt but the pledge of a good conscience to God--through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

New Heart English Bible
This is a symbol of baptism, which now saves you--not the removal of dirt from the body, but an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
For you also are saved in it by that simile in baptism, not when you wash the body from impurity, but when you confess God with a pure conscience, and by the resurrection of Yeshua, The Messiah,

King James 2000 Bible
The like figure unto which even baptism does also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

American King James Version
The like figure whereunto even baptism does also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Darby Bible Translation
which figure also now saves you, [even] baptism, not a putting away of [the] filth of flesh, but [the] demand as before God of a good conscience, by [the] resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Webster's Bible Translation
The like figure to which, even baptism, doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience towards God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

World English Bible
This is a symbol of baptism, which now saves you--not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Young's Literal Translation
also to which an antitype doth now save us -- baptism, (not a putting away of the filth of flesh, but the question of a good conscience in regard to God,) through the rising again of Jesus Christ,

Water baptism is a SYMBOL of Holy Spirit baptism.

Water baptism is a ceremony.

Holy Spirit baptism saves.

Hence the need for our inclusion into Christ's death by water baptism.

No. We were included into Christ's death by Holy Spirit baptism.

Remember, I posted 1 Tim 5:24..."Some men's sins are open beforehand, going before to judgment; and some men they follow after."
I received my due death at my judgment.

The only judgment the Bible mentions is the Judgment Seat of Christ, per 2 Cor 5:10, and the Great White Throne Judgment, per Rev 20:11-15.

I said:
"Believers continue to sin. Which perfectly explains WHY we have the command to be filled with the Spirit, to walk by means of the Spirit, to NOT grieve the Spirit and to NOT quench the Spirit."

If you are right, what is the point of telling the unable to quit doing things?

You keep asking ridiculous questions. I've already made clear that believers CAN be filled with the Spirit and walk by the Spirit. But it's NOT automatic.

The conclusions you come to after reading my posts demonstrates just how poorly you read posts. I never said believers are unable to do these things.

I'm getting the idea that you think that believers sin constantly. Am I right?

I said:
"This is a clear admonishment on how to avoid sinning (gratifying the desires of the flesh); by walking in the power of the Spirit."

You got that right.
Do you suppose Paul is ordering the impossible?

No, I sure don't. But you don't seem to have any idea what the Christian life even is about.

Phil W · Oct 20, 2019

FreeGrace2 said:
That isn't actually "provable". Evidence can be shown, but that isn't, in itself, proof.

I suppose you will use the same answer to determine who is not believer.
Sin is the proof of unbelief.
If you truly believed in God you would be "in Him".
There is no sin in Him.

The believer IS cleansed from his sins WHEN he confesses them. But there's still MORE animal feces you're going to walk into.

Water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ is "for the remission of sins". (Acts 2:38)
After which we can walk in the light, which is God...and there is no sin in God.

I know you never addressed my explanation of John 13 and Jesus' sidebar with Peter about feet washing. Back then, it wasn't a ceremony, it was NECESSARY. Those who didn't get their feet washed, after walking the paths of the day, OFFENDED everyone in whose home was visited.

It was a derail.

So that's what confess is for. To restore fellowship with the Lord. It's for believers.

Confessors of sin never had fellowship with God. His seed wasn't in them.
Confession is the a step before baptism.

I have no idea what you mean here. (Every sin is realized.)

According to James 1:14-15, it takes temptation, lust, enticement, and conception in order for there to be a sin.
That rules out any accidental sin.
Besides the facts of Gal 5:24..."And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts"...Having killed the lusts, there can be no sin without that "brick" in the wall.n.

Young's Literal Translation
for he who hath died hath been set free from the sin.

I'm just real sorry for you; that you can't understand that it's the penalty of sin that the believer HAS BEEN SET FREE from. Notice the past tense here?

Did you notice that not one of your dozen versions of scripture mentioned any penalty for sin?
Your understanding of Rom 6:7 is based on man's wisdom, and not God's.

Once again, I'm going to mansplain the 3 tenses of salvation to you.

Don't bother with the "man's wisdom" derail.

Nope. It's there, all right. What specifically DIED "on the day that" Adam and the woman ate the forbidden fruit? Did they keel over? No. They died spiritually. That means their human spirit died "on that day".

"Nope. It's there alright"?
Double mindedness.

So, when a person believes, what gets born AGAIN or RE-generated is the dead human spirit. So that's what is being referred to by "all things are made new".

You don't believe Romans 6:3-6.
I do, and know when I was "immersed" into Christ and into His death all of the old me was killed.
But as I joined with Him in His death and burial, I also joined with Him in His resurrection...as a new creature to "walk in newness of life".

I'm pretty sure you won't admit what kind of church you attend, but my bet is one of the Pentecostal Holiness ones.

You are violating forum rules by that very stupid comment. And you keep claiming that you never sin. But I suppose you'll just wave this off by claiming it's no sin to break human rules. Right?

No.
They still commit sin.

Then why do you say that I don't believe that verse? (Gal 5:24... And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.)

Because you accept that you still have lusts, in your doctrine, and with lusts you will commit sin.
Isn't sin what you are trying to preserve?

What you lack is proper understanding of Scripture. There are 2 kinds of sanctification.
1. positional, meaning being separated on the basis of being IN CHRIST (Eph 1:13,14).
2. experiential, meaning being separated by our lifestyle.

What God causes to happen is real, and man's code words can't dilute the meaning of sanctification.

Why do you not believe GAl 5:16 and 17?

I do believe it, but my perspective of it is from bejng in the Spirit instead of in the flesh.

No they were not, and your flimsy claim has no evidence to back it up.
I never said Paul is "still in the flesh" anyway. I said he continued to struggle with his own flesh.

People in the Spirit cannot commit sin.
They have been freed from sin.
They still get tempted, but without the lust anymore there can be no fulfillment of a lust.

Which is why he wrote to be filled with the Spirit. For your arrogant view, you don't need the command. You think you always are. The Bible NEVER teaches this.

I wasn't the first times I read it...before my conversion.
But I CONVERTED from one existence to a new, Godly one.
Your doctrine requires no conversion.

Which is why he wrote to walk by means of the Spirit. For your arrogant view, you don't need the command. You think you always do. The Bible NEVER teaches this.

I don't need the command to not kill or commit adultery either.
I have learned what you seem to think is new knowledge everyday.

Which is why he wrote to NOT grieve the Spirit. For your arrogant view, you don't need the command. You think you never do. The Bible NEVER teaches this.

Jesus commanded it in Matt 5:48.
Paul did too in 2 Tim 2:19 and 1 Cor 15:34.
Peter did in 1 Peter 4:1 and 2 Peter 1:10.

Just notice what Paul commands believers to DO. If your view were correct, all believers would already be doing all this all the time, and he wouldn't have had need to even mention it.

Believers hear/read it and adhere to it.
It is the unbelievers who won't obey.

Webster's Bible Translation
The like figure to which, even baptism, doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience towards God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.
Water baptism is a SYMBOL of Holy Spirit baptism.
Water baptism is a ceremony.
Holy Spirit baptism saves.

Tell that to the Samaritans, Cornelius, and the twelve at Ephesus.

No. We were included into Christ's death by Holy Spirit baptism.

How's that working out for you?
Having killed the flesh it has no more power to dictate your actions, so, how long have you been a non-sinner?

I said:
"Believers continue to sin. Which perfectly explains WHY we have the command to be filled with the Spirit, to walk by means of the Spirit, to NOT grieve the Spirit and to NOT quench the Spirit."

Are all the commands in the bible to be ignored?
Or accepted and obeyed as the word of God?

I'm getting the idea that you think that believers sin constantly. Am I right?

Isn't that your doctrine that I fight against?

I said:
"This is a clear admonishment on how to avoid sinning (gratifying the desires of the flesh); by walking in the power of the Spirit."...
(and Phil W said..."You got that right. Do you suppose Paul is ordering the impossible?}
free' replied...
No, I sure don't. But you don't seem to have any idea what the Christian life even is about.

Then you think those in Christ still serve the devil and bring forth devilish fruit.
Too bad, as there is a life lived in Christ that prevents walking in the flesh.

FreeGrace2 · Oct 20, 2019

You said:
"The parts of Rom 7 that you use to say Paul is still in the flesh were refuted by verses in Romans 6 and Romans 8."[/QUOTE]

I responded:
"I never said Paul is "still in the flesh" anyway. I said he continued to struggle with his own flesh.

Which is why he wrote to be filled with the Spirit. For your arrogant view, you don't need the command. You think you always are. The Bible NEVER teaches this.

Which is why he wrote to walk by means of the Spirit. For your arrogant view, ou don't need the command. You think you always do. The Bible NEVER teaches this.

Which is why he wrote to NOT grieve the Spirit. For your arrogant view, you don't need the command. You think you never do. The Bible NEVER teaches this.

Which is why he wrote to NOT quench the Spirit. For your arrogant view, you don't need the command. You think you never do. The Bible NEVER teaches this."

And you STILL have not addresses the verses I have quoted regarding this. The reason is obvious. You have no answer to the verses and you cannot explain them from your view.

Phil W said:
Water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ is "for the remission of sins". (Acts 2:38)
After which we can walk in the light, which is God...and there is no sin in God.

When the believer is filled with the Holy Spirit, he cannot sin.

That only happens when the believer either grieves or quenches the Holy Spirit.

I said:
"I know you never addressed my explanation of John 13 and Jesus' sidebar with Peter about feet washing. Back then, it wasn't a ceremony, it was NECESSARY. Those who didn't get their feet washed, after walking the paths of the day, OFFENDED everyone in whose home was visited."

It was a derail.

You are actually correct here. My explanation of what Jesus said to Peter derails your false doctrine.

Confessors of sin never had fellowship with God. His seed wasn't in them.
Confession is the a step before baptism.

How wrong can one be? 1 John 1:9 is an instruction for believers, and the context of ch 1 is fellowship with God.

Did you notice that not one of your dozen versions of scripture mentioned any penalty for sin?

So you are basically admitting that you cannot explain justification, sanctification, or glorification and how they fit into Christian doctrine. Obviously.

You don't believe Romans 6:3-6.
I do, and know when I was "immersed" into Christ and into His death all of the old me was killed.
But as I joined with Him in His death and burial, I also joined with Him in His resurrection...as a new creature to "walk in newness of life".

That's the purpose of becoming a new creature: to walk in newness of life. That doesn't say that every believer will.

Because you accept that you still have lusts, in your doctrine, and with lusts you will commit sin.

How wrong can you be? Paul instructs believers how NOT to fulfill the lusts of the flesh in Gal 5:16. A verse your view cannot tolerate.

Isn't sin what you are trying to preserve?

Total absurdity. I promote confession of sin and being filled with the Spirit in order to not sin.

I do believe it, but my perspective of it is from bejng in the Spirit instead of in the flesh.

I've asked you how a believer is filled with the Spirit, since Paul gave us the command, and you so far haven't addressed this.

Obviously you have no idea. You apparently think believers are always filled.

Your doctrine requires no conversion.

You make a lot of wrong claims.

Are all the commands in the bible to be ignored?

None of them are to be ignored. And your opinions cannot answer the commands to confess sins and be filled with the Spirit.

I said:
"I'm getting the idea that you think that believers sin constantly. Am I right?"

Isn't that your doctrine that I fight against?

you haven't yet understand anything I've posted.

You just keep getting it wrong. Like you do the Bible.

Phil W · Oct 20, 2019

FreeGrace2 said:
I responded:
"I never said Paul is "still in the flesh" anyway. I said he continued to struggle with his own flesh.
Which is why he wrote to be filled with the Spirit. For your arrogant view, you don't need the command. You think you always are. The Bible NEVER teaches this.
Which is why he wrote to walk by means of the Spirit. For your arrogant view, ou don't need the command. You think you always do. The Bible NEVER teaches this.
Which is why he wrote to NOT grieve the Spirit. For your arrogant view, you don't need the command. You think you never do. The Bible NEVER teaches this.
Which is why he wrote to NOT quench the Spirit. For your arrogant view, you don't need the command. You think you never do. The Bible NEVER teaches this."
And you STILL have not addresses the verses I have quoted regarding this. The reason is obvious. You have no answer to the verses and you cannot explain them from your view.

If it is impossible to accomplish, why are we told to "walk in the Spirit, grieve the Spirit, quench the Spirit"?
If, as you surmise, we can't quit doing those things, what is the point of telling us to quit?

When the believer is filled with the Holy Spirit, he cannot sin.

Agreed, and the truly repentant are always "filled with the Holy Spirit"
And it is written..."Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his." (Rom 8:9)

That only happens when the believer either grieves or quenches the Holy Spirit.

As believers don't disobey God, they will also obey His apostles.

I said:
"I know you never addressed my explanation of John 13 and Jesus' sidebar with Peter about feet washing. Back then, it wasn't a ceremony, it was NECESSARY. Those who didn't get their feet washed, after walking the paths of the day, OFFENDED everyone in whose home was visited."

It is still a derail.

How wrong can one be? 1 John 1:9 is an instruction for believers, and the context of ch 1 is fellowship with God.

Yep, verse 9 is the first step to conversion to a non-sinner in Christ.

That's the purpose of becoming a new creature: to walk in newness of life. That doesn't say that every believer will.

Then they are not believers.
Why do something you don't believe?
They are happy serving sin under the guise of Christianity.

How wrong can you be? Paul instructs believers how NOT to fulfill the lusts of the flesh in Gal 5:16.

Too bad you don't believe it is doable.
It is.

Total absurdity. I promote confession of sin and being filled with the Spirit in order to not sin.

For what? Two day at a time between sins?

I've asked you how a believer is filled with the Spirit, since Paul gave us the command, and you so far haven't addressed this.

Peter said; "Repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost"...in Acts 2:38.
It worked for me.

Jesus said "I am the door..." (John 10:9)
For me it was a one-way door. In only.
For you it is a revolving door. In, out, in, out, in, out, in, out.
Are you just hoping to be lucky enough to be "in" at the return of Jesus with His angels of fire?[/QUOTE]

FreeGrace2 · Oct 21, 2019

Phil W said:
If it is impossible to accomplish, why are we told to "walk in the Spirit, grieve the Spirit, quench the Spirit"?
If, as you surmise, we can't quit doing those things, what is the point of telling us to quit?

Agreed, and the truly repentant are always "filled with the Holy Spirit"
And it is written..."Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his." (Rom 8:9)

As believers don't disobey God, they will also obey His apostles.

It is still a derail.

Yep, verse 9 is the first step to conversion to a non-sinner in Christ.

Then they are not believers.
Why do something you don't believe?
They are happy serving sin under the guise of Christianity.

Too bad you don't believe it is doable.
It is.

For what? Two day at a time between sins?

Peter said; "Repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost"...in Acts 2:38.
It worked for me.

Jesus said "I am the door..." (John 10:9)
For me it was a one-way door. In only.
For you it is a revolving door. In, out, in, out, in, out, in, out.
Are you just hoping to be lucky enough to be "in" at the return of Jesus with His angels of fire?

The only thing of importance is your failure to align with Scripture.

Your view that a believer becoming a new creature means they don't have a sin nature anymore would eliminate ANY need for rebuking, correcting, or even instruction in righteousness.

Yet, once again, Scripture refutes your notions completely.

2 Tim 3:16 - All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and instruction in righteousness,

Why would a sinless person need to be rebuked?
Why would a sinless person need to be corrected?
Why would a sinless person need to be instructetd in righteousness?

Your view CANNOT reconcile your "no sin nature" theory with Scripture. I've given you loads of verses that would make NO SENSE if your theory were correct.

And you haven't even tried to explain how those verses make sense given your theory.

You have no answers for my questions. Which is why you ignore most of them.

Phil W · Oct 21, 2019

FreeGrace2 said:
The only thing of importance is your failure to align with Scripture.
Your view that a believer becoming a new creature means they don't have a sin nature anymore would eliminate ANY need for rebuking, correcting, or even instruction in righteousness.

I don't know why you think that.
How can being reminded not to swear, covet, hate, steal, kill, etc. be an indication that we swear, covet, hate, steal, etc?
You are putting the cart before the horse.
If I say t you..."Don't tell lies"...are you a liar?
Of course not, but the thoughts of telling the truth on all occasions will be fresh in your mind at a time of need.
The devil never stops trying to get us to forsake our faith with temptations to be "like all the other damned souls who are having so much fun".
Our obedience to God is a choice made hundreds of times a day, and thousands of times in life span.
Don't get lazy!

Yet, once again, Scripture refutes your notions completely.
2 Tim 3:16 - All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and instruction in righteousness,
Why would a sinless person need to be rebuked?
Why would a sinless person need to be corrected?
Why would a sinless person need to be instructetd in righteousness?
Your view CANNOT reconcile your "no sin nature" theory with Scripture. I've given you loads of verses that would make NO SENSE if your theory were correct.

Not all verses in the bible are aimed at Christians. Some are intended for the false believers.
They are tools to weed out the transgressors.

And you haven't even tried to explain how those verses make sense given your theory.
You have no answers for my questions. Which is why you ignore most of them.

Most of them I have answered, on multiple occasions, but you are resistant to the truth that can set you free of committing sin. (John 8:32-34)

BTW, which version of the bible do you use?

FreeGrace2 · Oct 21, 2019

I said:
"The only thing of importance is your failure to align with Scripture.
Your view that a believer becoming a new creature means they don't have a sin nature anymore would eliminate ANY need for rebuking, correcting, or even instruction in righteousness."

Phil W said:
I don't know why you think that.

I find that quite disturbing. It's a direct connection.

How can being reminded not to swear, covet, hate, steal, kill, etc. be an indication that we swear, covet, hate, steal, etc?

If a person doesn't have a sin nature and therefore doesn't sin, why would such reminders even be needed? That's what you seem not to fathom.

You are putting the cart before the horse.

Rather, your horse pulled your cart into a ditch.

If I say t you..."Don't tell lies"...are you a liar?

No. But it DEFINITELY indicates that I could be.

But your view is that you no longer have a sinful nature, and that is why you don't sin.

Of course not, but the thoughts of telling the truth on all occasions will be fresh in your mind at a time of need.

The very reminder PROVES capability.

The devil never stops trying to get us to forsake our faith with temptations to be "like all the other damned souls who are having so much fun".

Again, you don't seem to understand the issue. If a person no longer has a sin nature (it's been crucified), there is NOTHING anyone, devil or man, can do to get that person to sin. It just isn't possible if they don't have a sin nature.

Our obedience to God is a choice made hundreds of times a day, and thousands of times in life span.
Don't get lazy!

I guess you just don't see your own contradiction here. Of course obedience is a choice made numerous times a day. The "other side of the coin" is to NOT obey, which is also a choice. But you have denied your sin nature, which means you aren't really making choices, but acting only on your sinless nature.

Not all verses in the bible are aimed at Christians. Some are intended for the false believers.

This is just silly. There is NO POINT in telling unsaved people to be "holy and blameless". But you tell me why you think there is a reason for doing this.

The only message that is relevant to unsaved people is the gospel. Everything else is relevant to believers.

They are tools to weed out the transgressors.

Where do you get your idea?? Where does the Bible talk about trying to "weed out" unbelievers? In fact, the Bible wants to evangelize unsaved people.

btw, please explain what your "weeding out" looks like. And the purpose.

Most of them I have answered, on multiple occasions, but you are resistant to the truth that can set you free of committing sin. (John 8:32-34)

There is only one way to be free from sin. That is to be in fellowhip with the Lord, and to be filled with the Holy Spirit.

But you deny the reality of grieving and quenching the Holy Spirit.

BTW, which version of the bible do you use?

Primarily the NIV. You know, the nearly inspired version. But I have 28 translations available to examine.

Phil W · Oct 21, 2019

FreeGrace2 said:
I said:
"The only thing of importance is your failure to align with Scripture.
Your view that a believer becoming a new creature means they don't have a sin nature anymore would eliminate ANY need for rebuking, correcting, or even instruction in righteousness."
I find that quite disturbing. It's a direct connection.
If a person doesn't have a sin nature and therefore doesn't sin, why would such reminders even be needed? That's what you seem not to fathom.

No. But it DEFINITELY indicates that I could be.

Your answer speaks directly to the point of your thread.
If you ignore the exhortations and warnings in scripture, you just may give up your faith.
A man is only a Christian as long as he acts like a Christian.
It is our responsibility to act like Christians, and we can only do so if we are born of God.
The false believers, those who keep committing sin, are not born of God.

But your view is that you no longer have a sinful nature, and that is why you don't sin.

The reason I don't commit sin is because I have been reborn of God's seed and God's seed cannot bring forth the fruit of the devil. (1 John 3:9-10)
I left my "sinful nature" on the cross with Christ when I was killed with Him...at water baptism into His death. (Rom 6:3-6)
It is written..."And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts." (Gal 5:24)
Those who are "not Christ's" still have their flesh, vile affections, and lusts.
I am a new creature, and "old things are passed away". (2 Cor 5:17)

Again, you don't seem to understand the issue. If a person no longer has a sin nature (it's been crucified), there is NOTHING anyone, devil or man, can do to get that person to sin. It just isn't possible if they don't have a sin nature.

Amen to that!!!
Thanks be to God for His miraculous mercy and freedom from sin.
But, the devil keeps on trying to corrupt us anyway.
One sin manifests from whom one is born.

I guess you just don't see your own contradiction here. Of course obedience is a choice made numerous times a day. The "other side of the coin" is to NOT obey, which is also a choice. But you have denied your sin nature, which means you aren't really making choices, but acting only on your sinless nature.

It is my choice to "act on my divine nature".
I can revert to disobedience anytime I want to throw away my hope of eternal life.

Primarily the NIV. You know, the nearly inspired version. But I have 28 translations available to examine.

Now was that so hard?
Hmmm...I don't see any mention of "penalty for sins" in your version of Romans 6:7.?

FreeGrace2 · Oct 22, 2019

Phil W said:
Your answer speaks directly to the point of your thread.
If you ignore the exhortations and warnings in scripture, you just may give up your faith.
A man is only a Christian as long as he acts like a Christian.

You make a lot of claims, but have zero evidence to support any of it.

Once a child of God (Christisn), then ALWAYS a child of God. Those who don't believe that simply are IGNORANT of Scripture. Shame on them.

It is our responsibility to act like Christians, and we can only do so if we are born of God.

Again, wrong. It IS our responsibility to act like God's children (Christian), BUT we can only do so if we are filled with the Spirit. That is WHY Paul gave Christians that command. But you don't understand that command. Do you.

The false believers, those who keep committing sin, are not born of God.

There is no such thing as a false believer. The Bible mentions "false brothers" twice. So let's stick with what Scripture says and words Scripture uses, ok?

And your claim is easily refuted from Scripture. We are commanded to NOT sin. That command is to born again Christians. So all you are doing with your claims is to contradict your own theology.

The reason I don't commit sin is because I have been reborn of God's seed and God's seed cannot bring forth the fruit of the devil. (1 John 3:9-10)

Yeah, sure. I've heard that one (LIE) before.

But before John wrote those verses, he wrote these in the opening chapter:

6 If we claim to have fellowship with him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live out the truth.
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.
8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us.

v.6 Do you think the Pharisees in Jesus' day walked in the light or in darkness? Keep in mind how strictly they lived, according to the Law.

v.7 only WHEN the believer walks in the light will he have fellowship with each other and with God. You don't understand the difference between relationship, which is permanent, and fellowship, which is dynamic. Fellowship relates to the STATE of the relationship.

In marriage, the relationship is there EVEN WHEN there is NO fellowship between spouses.

In families, the parent and child are in a PERMANENT relationship, but obviously fellowship isn't continuous, or even ever there, in some cases.

The Bible uses BOTH examples in a spiritual sense.

v.8 describes you to a T.

v.9 the solution to our sin. Confession, for cleansing, and restoration of fellowship, just as a spouse or child MUST confess for restoration of fellowship in their relationship.

v.10 That has been your claim as well. As such, you are calling God a LIAR. Why don't you see that as sin? It is.

You reject the reality that believers can walk in darkness, by holding to false doctrines, as well as a disobedient lifestyle.

Then, in the very next verse, 2:1, we see the real potential to sin by believers. Which you have denied is possible.

I left my "sinful nature" on the cross with Christ when I was killed with Him...at water baptism into His death. (Rom 6:3-6)

No you didn't. You only think you did. I've given clear verses about the FACT that believers struggle with sin. Heb 12:4. James said "we ALL stumble in many ways".

It is written..."And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts." (Gal 5:24)

You are also quite unfamiliar with positional truth. That refers to the believer's status because of being IN Christ (Eph 1:13,14). Just as Christ literally was crucified in the flesh, we have been crucified in our flesh positionally.

Those who are "not Christ's" still have their flesh, vile affections, and lusts.
I am a new creature, and "old things are passed away". (2 Cor 5:17)

And you are twisting Scripture from its meaning.

If your "take" on that verse was true, then explain why Paul said this to saved people in Gal 5:16-17
16 So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh.
17 For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whateveryou want.

Your claim is that you CANNOT "gratify the desires of the flesh" because you no longer have your "flesh". Well, Paul disagrees with your view. ONLY when walking by the Spirit, or being filled with the Spirit (Eph 5:18) will the believer NOT gratify the desires of the flesh.

But you don't understand any of this.

Amen to that!!!
Thanks be to God for His miraculous mercy and freedom from sin.
But, the devil keeps on trying to corrupt us anyway.

The freedom is ONLY when In fellowship and filled with the Spirit, who is the power source for the Christian life. But you continue to demonstrate your lack of understanding about this.

One sin manifests from whom one is born.

Then prove your claim from Scripture. Sin manifests from our nature.

Keep in mind that James was writing to SAVED BORN AGAIN Jews:
1:13-15
13 When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone;
14 but each person is tempted when they are dragged away by their own evil desire and enticed.
15 Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.

James is telling us that believers HAVE "their own evil desires" (v.14). Thats where our sin comes from. And you aren't excluded, regardless of your claims.

btw, note the very next verse: 16 Don’t be deceived, my dear brothers and sisters.

James is talking DIRECTLY to you. You have been deceived. You should either fire your pastor, or, if you are a pastor, you should resign.

It is my choice to "act on my divine nature".

Of course. But you deny the reality of an opposite choice; to respond to your own evil desires, which everyone has. But you don't believe the Bible.

I can revert to disobedience anytime I want to throw away my hope of eternal life.

If you don't have your sinful flesh (nature) anymore, you know, because it was crucified with Christ, where would that disobedience come from then??

You are again contradicting your own theology. It seems you haven't thought it through very well. Or at all.

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