John 3:16....Eternal life - When?

keras said:

Immortality is not conferred upon anyone until the Book of Life is opened; at the Great White Throne Judgment, AFTER the Millennium.
The ideas of people going to heaven, or being immortal along with mortal humans, are not Biblical and can never happen.

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Now I'm confused. I thought believers had their new bodies and lived on the new earth during the millennium.

keras said:

Immortality is not conferred upon anyone until the Book of Life is opened; at the Great White Throne Judgment, AFTER the Millennium.
The ideas of people going to heaven, or being immortal along with mortal humans, are not Biblical and can never happen.

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Well the thing with that is Jesus tells us what the requirement is to be invited into the kingdom of God-to be born again. For the soul to be regenerated,so if we take Jesus at his word we do know and we are saved.

The way I see it is this simplified path to heaven:

-A person is born of flesh or physical birth entering this world

-A person is born again-the spiritual rebirth

-The last step (for saved believers) before entering into Gods kingdom our bodies are changed from corrupted to incorruptible down here on earth,ready for heaven as explained by Paul:

1 Corinthians 15:50-53
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.


Anyway,this is one small part of end times i'm sure you will agree.

HopeInJesusOnly said:

I have one more question, if I may. If one is struggling with depression and dies in this state (or God forbid, kills themself), do they also get blotted out as not being able to overcome? It seems like compounding sadness. First the depression and then failing life in this age and the next.

Sorry if the question is a dumb one.

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It's hardly a dumb question, yet it's a question I have no satisfactory answer for. So I don't know whether that might fall under not overcoming or not. Maybe in some cases it would, and in some cases it wouldn't, I'm not sure. Some tend to think Samson committed suicide(Judges 16:29-30), but it wouldn't be because he was depressed though. I can't imagine him not rising in the resurrection unto eternal life with the rest of the saints, even though, technically speaking, he may have committed suicide.

HopeInJesusOnly said:

Now I'm confused. I thought believers had their new bodies and lived on the new earth during the millennium.

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You are not the one confused here, Keras is the one confused here. If there is a millennium after the 2nd coming, saints will obviously already be in immortal bodies prior to the beginning of it.

keras said:

Immortality is not conferred upon anyone until the Book of Life is opened; at the Great White Throne Judgment, AFTER the Millennium.
The ideas of people going to heaven, or being immortal along with mortal humans, are not Biblical and can never happen.

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Your view can be dangerous, if found to be false.....because one has to die before it can be verified, and there is no repentance after the grave.

I believe Life and immortality is gained now, yet while we live, afterward, there will be no death. Do not hold for tomorrow the things promised now....for tomorrow has never come and never will.

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life."

"And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?"

keras said:

The tragedy is that most Christians are in the dark

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No christian is in the dark about anything. "But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness" (1Thes5:4) " I am sending you to them to open their eyes, so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those sanctified by faith in Me.’ " (acts26:18)

Colossians 1:13
He has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of His beloved Son,

Hey Keras.. great question. I am no expert so forgive me..I don't want to come accross as if I do I believe I have every lasting life now. Well... something was made new right now.. its hard to put on the new man which after God was created in righteness and true holiness if I don't have it now. Now I am talking about "spirit". This flesh must at some point put on imortality for its witten we shall not all sleep. The lord show'd Paul something that didn't have a TIME on it. Well its what he said "WE". Caught up will happen.. its WHEN we don't know.

Not sure how else to take.. this body... to be absent from it..to be away from the body and at home with the lord. Is that just paradise.. could be. I think if we make a statement.. we really need to back it up with the word and even then "this is what/how I believe" would be wise to add to it. I KNOW what it sounds like when I read it.. but my personal view is NOT His word.

Books.. you know I really wonder about these. Well David talks .. "Your eyes saw my substance, being yet unformed. And in Your book they all were written, The days fashioned for me, When as yet there were none of them." And this book "Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous."...let them be blotted out? Seems they are IN the book of life/living already. Well I WONDER is that BOOK about this life on earth? For we also have the "Lambs book". "And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world." Some talk about the "book of rememberace" Malachi 3:16.

"immortality". We live in a body.. with a soul and a spirit. God can only create life. ALL are "immortal". The flesh.. sleeps not the spirit. So as I understand and can be wrong lol.. we are with Him or not. Yet are all "immortal". Thus we get burn forever or burned up.. all of which I truly don't know.

keras said:

The teaching that some will receive spiritual bodies, immortality; at or even before Jesus Returns, is not scriptural.

Paul said in 1 Corinthians 15:54-56....when this perishable body has been clothed with immortality; THEN this prophecy will come true: Death where is your victory, where is your sting?
We know that death will happen during the Millennium, Isaiah 65:20 and how the armies of the world are killed by God; Revelation 16:14, Revelation 19:21
Death is only, finally done away with when the New Jerusalem and God Himself, comes to the earth. Revelation 21:1-7

No scripture says anyone receives immortality, or a glorified body before the GWT Judgment and the Book of Life is opened. We have the Promise of it, John 3:16, but not the reality until Gods plan for mankind is all over.
People may think verses like Philippians 3:21 does, Paul doesn't say when, but that verse does go on to say; to make all things subject to Himself. Which happens after the final battle against evil. Revelation 20:7-10

Millions have been deceived by the false teaching of a ‘rapture to heaven’, or immortality for some in the Millennium. this will not happen, it is illogical and conflicts with God’s Plan for mankind.

There is no easy path out from the testing times ahead. 1 Peter 4:12
We must stand firm in our faith and trust in the Lord for His protection. Joel 2:2-32, Acts 2:21

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The Bible does teach of a rapture...when that is I do not know, but Jesus also said to one of the men dying on the cross next to him that he would be with him in Paradise that day

keras said:

! Thess 4:17 does say that the Lord will lift up His people, those who remain alive, to where He is. Initially in the clouds, then into Jerusalem; on earth. Paralleled by Matthew 24:30-31
Heaven is not mentioned there, or anywhere in the Bible as the destination for humans.

Re; the thief on the cross, it does seem like Jesus meant that Day, but a correct placement of punctuation makes the meaning of the present day, he was informed that he would eventually enter Paradise.
Proved by how Jesus was in the tomb for the next 3 days.

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Hmmm, interesting. Thanks. I don't spend much time worrying about when heaven is exactly, I trust God has it figured out, but what about the scripture of the rich man and Lazarus, who was poor and begged outside his gate? It says the rich man went to a place of torture, and Lazarus into Abraham's bosom, which may or may not be a metaphor, but regardless, it seems to be a place of comfort. It also seems that Lazarus was fully aware there, not sleeping, as the rich man ironically wound up begging for his assistsnce.
On a side note, when I read this passage it seems to me the rich man is still unrepentant (sp?) asking God to send Lazarus rather than being ashamed of his previous disregard for Lazarus' suffering, and apologizing to him and begging his forgiveness.
In any case, it seems to me this shows people who love God go to a good place, a place of comfort , immediately after death, although some verses say sleeping. What do you think?

keras said:

The teaching that some will receive spiritual bodies, immortality; at or even before Jesus Returns, is not scriptural.

Paul said in 1 Corinthians 15:54-56....when this perishable body has been clothed with immortality; THEN this prophecy will come true: Death where is your victory, where is your sting?
We know that death will happen during the Millennium, Isaiah 65:20 and how the armies of the world are killed by God; Revelation 16:14, Revelation 19:21
Death is only, finally done away with when the New Jerusalem and God Himself, comes to the earth. Revelation 21:1-7

No scripture says anyone receives immortality, or a glorified body before the GWT Judgment and the Book of Life is opened. We have the Promise of it, John 3:16, but not the reality until Gods plan for mankind is all over.
People may think verses like Philippians 3:21 does, Paul doesn't say when, but that verse does go on to say; to make all things subject to Himself. Which happens after the final battle against evil. Revelation 20:7-10

Millions have been deceived by the false teaching of a ‘rapture to heaven’, or immortality for some in the Millennium. this will not happen, it is illogical and conflicts with God’s Plan for mankind.

There is no easy path out from the testing times ahead. 1 Peter 4:12
We must stand firm in our faith and trust in the Lord for His protection. Joel 2:2-32, Acts 2:21

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I hope you know, the mainstream of Christianity would challenge most of your post. The title, "Eternal life when?" The bible is clear, the moment one is born again ,they pass from eternal death to eternal life.

John 3:36 says, “He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life:
The Greek here is "present, active, indicitive." When someone believes, they enter into eternal life RIGHT THEN. But, the change AT THIS TIME is in the human spirit, not in the human body.
So WHEN does a believer receive their resurrection body? Paul makes that clear too: we all (those who are born again and in right standing with God) will receive their resurrection body (a forever body - an eternal body) at the time of the pretrib rapture of the church.
Period and end of Story. This is the NORM of Christianity. It has bee believed by untold millions for centuries.

Millions have been deceived by the false teaching of a ‘rapture to heaven’ If you don't want to believe the word of God, that is between you and God. Paul is clear in His teaching. But it seems you just don't believe Paul.

Listen carefully, it is VERY DANGEROUS to attempt to convince others against what Paul taught. We are all going to be JUDGED by Paul's gospel - and part of His gospel is the rapture of the church. It is OK for the rest of us if you don't believe Paul. That is between you and God.

I wonder if you have any idea of what life will be like after the rapture. My guess is, you don't know. I would highly suggest you go to Youtube and look up Ken Peters - who before he was even born again saw the tribulation in great detail. Listen to his testimony.

It is going to be literally hell on earth. Why? Because the world seems to want a world without God, so God is going to "turn His back" so to speak and let the devil have total control - for a certain amount of time. It will be a time of God's wrath poured out on those who refuse to repent. But that same wrath will be poured out on those who did repent but did not want to be a part of the rapture. FOR EXAMPLE, when God turns all fresh water into blood, what are those left behind going to drink?

I really wonder why people insist on going through this time when God has made a way of escape. Well, some do: I have chatted with several. All I can say is, I hope your theory works out for you.

Readers, there are very good reasons why the church in general BELIEVES in the pretrib rapture; it is in scripture. You CAN believe it.

keras said:

The teaching that some will receive spiritual bodies, immortality; at or even before Jesus Returns, is not scriptural.

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There is a difference between receiving our new spiritual bodies and immortality. You are conflating the two.

Do you know of anyone here (or anywhere else) who teaches that any in the church will receive their new bodies before the Lord returns? I know of no one.

As for immortality - I have been raised with Christ and am even now seated with Him in Heaven. I have believed on Him and have therefore, according to Jesus, passed from death to life and will never again come in condemnation.

I.e. - as part of the Body of Christ, who has been regenerated spiritually and sealed by the Holy Spirit - I am immortal right now.

Obviously - I can't speak for you. Perhaps you, like many who post here, are hoping that you will be saved in the end if you manage to keep your nose clean.

As for me - I know Whom I have believed and I'm confident that He is able to keep that which I have entrusted to Him against the day of judgment.

IMO - the difference between the two mental conditions is the difference between saving faith and something else entirely. Time will tell I suppose.

keras said:

There is no consciousness after death. Ecclesiastes 9:5-6 Our next conscious moment, will be as we stand before God sitting on His Great White Throne, judging everyone who has ever lived.

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Then you believe that Jesus was deceiving us when He told us about the rich man and Lazarus?

So - you are taking the word of the preacher in Ecclesiastes over that of the Lord Jesus Christ.

You aren't the first person who quoted Ecclesiastes out of context in order to supposedly prove a non Biblical doctrine.

Next you'll be telling us that you agree with the Ecclesiastes preacher that "all is vanity".

keras said:

Typical conclusion jumping!

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I agree. You need to watch that.

Your position is one that is usually associated with the old hard line SDA heresy.

But it often comes up here from people who want to teach that salvation is based on our works (although they would deny it vigorously) and or that we can lose our salvation if we fail to live up to their standards.

(By the way - do you identify with "Holiness Pentecostals" who teach salvation through the achieving of a certain holiness? That wouldn't surprise me.)

keras said:

What I think and believe, is the dead know nothing, Eccl 9:5-6, Job 14:10-12, +
The next conscious moment for dead people, will be when they stand before God in Judgment. Revelation 20:11-15

Eternal life, means never dying. We still die, saved and unsaved, but those who have become faithful Christians, the Promise of immortality is theirs.
The majority of Christianity is wrong in the false belief of anyone going to heaven, dead or alive.

But Paul never says such a thing at all. He says how the Lord's people who remain will be gathered to Him, on earth; 1 Thess 4:17, Matthew 24:31

Paul prophesies about the change that will happen to those worthy, dead and alive, at the GWT Judgment, AFTER the Millennium. 1 Corinthians 15:50-56, Revelation 21:1-7​

As I do read what God has planned for His people in the end times, I look forward to it all with great anticipation, as He blesses and protects His people.

Readers there is not scripture that says God will take any human to heaven. But there are 6 verses of the Words of Jesus, that tell us such a thing is impossible.
The 'rapture to heaven' theory is in fact, a Satanic lie of the worst kind because many have fallen for it. To their discredit and to their serious confusion when it doesn't happen.

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You did not respond to the scripture about the rich man and Lazarus.
And I consider the line you quoted from Ecclesiastes more poetic than literal. It is written from a disheartened view of a life of not placing God first, as Solomon forsook to do, in his later life. It's more like saying once you are dead it's too late; and I believe back then people had even less knowlege of heaven than we do now, and ours is very limited...
And calling not understanding when people go to heaven, or thinking people go straight to heaven, "satanic," is extteme, to say the very least.
"Pride goeth before destruction, amd haughtiness before a fall."

His student said: ↑

There is a difference between receiving our new spiritual bodies and immortality. You are conflating the two.

keras said:

I do not believe that. A Spiritual body has to be immortal.

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With all due respect - that's not a logical statement.

It is not logical to deduce that because spiritual bodies have to be immortal - therefore all immortal persons have to have received a spiritual body.

keras said:

There are plenty of weird notions out there!

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I asked for an example of someone who had that particular weird notion. Got any?

keras said:

The Bible is clear: Only when the Book of Life is opened, is immortality given to those whose names are found in it.

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No it isn't - as I have demonstrated from scripture.

keras said:

Really? What's your address then?

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With Him in glory just like I said.

"and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus," Ephesians 2:6

Note the past tense. If you haven't yet been seated with Him and given authority in the Kingdom of God - that's your business. Just don't try to convince me that I'm not in the position that the scriptures tell me I am.

By the way - without faith it's impossible to please God.

It's hard to believe that you can pass the Great White Throne judgment when you don't even trust that you are saved in this life.

keras said:

No, you just live here on earth like all of us humans.

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Not like all humans apparently since I'm also living in Kingdom of God right now.

keras said:

Questioning my salvation, is a very pretentious and accusing thing to do. You don't know me and just because I point out scriptures that conflict with your beliefs; does that make me an apostate?

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Not presumptuous at all since you claim to be not yet saved.

I do know you - but only according to what you have said here since I have never met you physically.

I never said you were an apostate. In fact I am questioning whether you have been saved in the first place since you say that salvation cannot be entered into until the Great White Throne judgment at the end of the age.

keras said:

I take the Word in all of the Bible and it never conflicts. It is only people who have fanciful ideas of what they want God to do for them, that have to say certain verses are out of context, or don't mean what they actually say.

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"Many of them said, “He has a demon, and is insane; why listen to him?” John 0:20

These are examples of the words of mere men. Don't say they are the sentiments of God. If you do you will be wrong.

The preacher in Ecclesiastes is an example of the best wisdom the world can offer - presented to us through the word of "the preacher".

You can't just pluck something like these examples out of scripture and present them as solid doctrine without understanding them in context. You need to get back to Bible school.

keras said:

I have nothing to do with SDA's or Holy rollers.

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That's mostly a good thing - although there's nothing wrong with a little shouting, jumping and rolling at times.

keras said:

Our 'works' are what we will receive rewards for. Our Salvation is a given, as long as we maintain our faith and trust in the Lord.

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Amen to that.

The difference between us apparently is that I believe that He Who began a good work in me will complete it and you apparently don't believe that the works you do which will be worthy of reward are the works that God before the foundation of the world prepared for us to walk in.

Look - I believe I have eternal life. You believe you will receive it someday if you do well.

I hope to see you on the other side of this life. But I can only hope at this time since, based on your own words, you don't yet have eternal life.

“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.” – John 3:16
It’s a shame that a lot of people only quote that verse without looking at what comes immediately after it.
“ For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil.For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God.” – John 3:17-21
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