That's off topic. We're discussing 2 Thess 1 in this thread.
Challenge to those who call themselves a "Partial-Preterist"
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That's off topic. We're discussing 2 Thess 1 in this thread.
I didn't read the other replies, just your post. But what is so difficult to understand about these scriptures. AndThis was brought up in another thread (and it was off topic there) so I wanted to continue the discussion here.
It was posted:
In regards to this passage:
1 Thessalonians 1:1-10
Greeting
1 From Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy:
2 To the church of the Thessalonians, which is in God our Father, and in the Lord Jesus Christ.Grace and peace to all of you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Thanksgiving and encouragement
3 Brothers and sisters, we must always thank God for you. This is only right because your faithfulness is growing by leaps and bounds, and the love that all of you have for each other is increasing.
4 That's why we ourselves are bragging about you in God's churches. We tell about your endurance and faithfulness in all the harassments and trouble that you have put up with.
5 This shows that God's judgment is right, and that you will be considered worthy of God's kingdom for which you are suffering.
6 After all, it's right for God to pay back the ones making trouble for you with trouble
7 and to pay back you who are having trouble with relief along with us. This payback will come when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his powerful angels.
8 He will give justice with blazing fire to those who don't recognize God and don't obey the good news of our Lord Jesus.
9 They will pay the penalty of eternal destruction away from the Lord's presence and away from his mighty glory.
10 This will happen when he comes on that day to receive honor from his holy people and to be admired by everyone who has believed—and our testimony to you was believed.
I will give others a chance to give their views first.
This scripture is about as clear as a scripture gets. It's about Armageddon, when Christ destroys the ungodly. The only time Christ is spoken of as being revealed from heaven with angels to destroy people in a flaming fire is at Armageddon. See 2nd Peter 3:10-13; Matthew 25:31; Matthew 13:4This was brought up in another thread (and it was off topic there) so I wanted to continue the discussion here.
It was posted:
In regards to this passage:
1 Thessalonians 1:1-10
Greeting
1 From Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy:
2 To the church of the Thessalonians, which is in God our Father, and in the Lord Jesus Christ.Grace and peace to all of you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Thanksgiving and encouragement
3 Brothers and sisters, we must always thank God for you. This is only right because your faithfulness is growing by leaps and bounds, and the love that all of you have for each other is increasing.
4 That's why we ourselves are bragging about you in God's churches. We tell about your endurance and faithfulness in all the harassments and trouble that you have put up with.
This was brought up in another thread (and it was off topic there) so I wanted to continue the discussion here.
It was posted:
In regards to this passage:
1 Thessalonians 1:1-10
Greeting
1 From Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy:
2 To the church of the Thessalonians, which is in God our Father, and in the Lord Jesus Christ.Grace and peace to all of you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Thanksgiving and encouragement
3 Brothers and sisters, we must always thank God for you. This is only right because your faithfulness is growing by leaps and bounds, and the love that all of you have for each other is increasing.
4 That's why we ourselves are bragging about you in God's churches. We tell about your endurance and faithfulness in all the harassments and trouble that you have put up with.
5 This shows that God's judgment is right, and that you will be considered worthy of God's kingdom for which you are suffering.
6 After all, it's right for God to pay back the ones making trouble for you with trouble
7 and to pay back you who are having trouble with relief along with us. This payback will come when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his powerful angels.
8 He will give justice with blazing fire to those who don't recognize God and don't obey the good news of our Lord Jesus.
9 They will pay the penalty of eternal destruction away from the Lord's presence and away from his mighty glory.
10 This will happen when he comes on that day to receive honor from his holy people and to be admired by everyone who has believed—and our testimony to you was believed.
I will give others a chance to give their views first.
5 This shows that God's judgment is right, and that you will be considered worthy of God's kingdom for which you are suffering.
6 After all, it's right for God to pay back the ones making trouble for you with trouble
7 and to pay back you who are having trouble with relief along with us. This payback will come when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his powerful angels.
8 He will give justice with blazing fire to those who don't recognize God and don't obey the good news of our Lord Jesus.
9 They will pay the penalty of eternal destruction away from the Lord's presence and away from his mighty glory.
10 This will happen when he comes on that day to receive honor from his holy people and to be admired by everyone who has believed—and our testimony to you was believed.
I will give others a chance to give their views first.
eternal destruction is a clear reference to Final Judgement at the 2C with fire from heaven in revelation 20:9This was brought up in another thread (and it was off topic there) so I wanted to continue the discussion here.
It was posted:
In regards to this passage:
1 Thessalonians 1:1-10
Greeting
1 From Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy:
2 To the church of the Thessalonians, which is in God our Father, and in the Lord Jesus Christ.Grace and peace to all of you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Thanksgiving and encouragement
3 Brothers and sisters, we must always thank God for you. This is only right because your faithfulness is growing by leaps and bounds, and the love that all of you have for each other is increasing.
4 That's why we ourselves are bragging about you in God's churches. We tell about your endurance and faithfulness in all the harassments and trouble that you have put up with.
5 This shows that God's judgment is right, and that you will be considered worthy of God's kingdom for which you are suffering.
6 After all, it's right for God to pay back the ones making trouble for you with trouble
7 and to pay back you who are having trouble with relief along with us. This payback will come when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his powerful angels.
8 He will give justice with blazing fire to those who don't recognize God and don't obey the good news of our Lord Jesus.
9 They will pay the penalty of eternal destruction away from the Lord's presence and away from his mighty glory.
10 This will happen when he comes on that day to receive honor from his holy people and to be admired by everyone who has believed—and our testimony to you was believed.
I will give others a chance to give their views first.
Roman destruction of Jerusalem is symbolized by the beast defeating Babylon at Armageddon (Rev 16-18)Christ is only spoken of in scripture as returning to Earth with angels to destroy sinners in a flame of fire during Armageddon. Read the following scriptures: 2Peter 3:8-13; Matthew 25:31-34 & 41; Matthew 13: 40-42.
All of my posted verses speak of the same event that your Thessalonians scripture speaks of. Christ did not return to Earth when Jerusalem was destroyed, and he didn't destroy it. The Romans did. Therefore, your scripture couldn't be speaking of Jerusalem's destruction any more than the scriptures I posted.
Do those who refute you believe they are living in heaven or in the New World now? Because that's the aftermath of events in these scriptures, per the scriptures-See 2Peter 3. So, do they think this is the New World Peter spoke of. And if they are in heaven, where's Christ?
It all comes down to when the New World is here, and when those who have access to heaven do. I know I will have access to heaven, because I've been shown that. Some other people have been shown that, including Bible writers John and Paul to name a couple. Christ said some will have access to heaven, and that was written down for the world to read.Roman destruction of Jerusalem is symbolized by the beast defeating Babylon at Armageddon (Rev 16-18)
afterwards, Church overcoming Roman empire is symbolized by the conquering figure defeating the beast (rev 19)
2C in fiery judgement = rev 20:9
The three plain descriptions about the Return of Jesus; Zechariah 14:3, Matthew 24:30 and Revelation 19:11-21 do not mention fire at all, He destroys the attacking armies by the Sword of His Word and the bodies are not burned; the birds feast on them.Christ is only spoken of in scripture as returning to Earth with angels to destroy sinners in a flame of fire during Armageddon.
The three plain descriptions about the Return of Jesus; Zechariah 14:3, Matthew 24:30 and Revelation 19:11-21 do not mention fire at all, He destroys the attacking armies by the Sword of His Word and the bodies are not burned; the birds feast on them.
You have inaccurately interpreted scripture and confuse the Lord's Day of fiery wrath, the Sixth Seal event, with the Return. Two different Days, years apart.
Perfect example of word replacement theology. The Thessalonians are the ones to whom Paul is writing, not Christians generically. Therefore, the 'you' that follows is always specifically referring to the Thessalonians. By taking away Thessalonians and replacing with Christians, makes the whole letter nonsensical. For instance: "2Thess 2: 5Do you(Christians) not remember that while I was still with you(Christians), I was telling you(Christians) these things? 6And you(Christians) know what restrains him now, so that in his time he will be revealed."
So, what things did he tell us Christians when he was with us about the man of lawlessness? And what did he say was restraining him?
The three plain descriptions about the Return of Jesus; Zechariah 14:3, Matthew 24:30 and Revelation 19:11-21 do not mention fire at all, He destroys the attacking armies by the Sword of His Word and the bodies are not burned; the birds feast on them.
And this shall be the plague with which the Lord will strike all the people who fought against Jerusalem:
Their flesh shall dissolve while they stand on their feet,
Their eyes shall dissolve in their sockets,
And their tongues shall dissolve in their mouths.
Zechariah 14:12
- Their flesh shall dissolve while they stand on their feet,
- Their eyes shall dissolve in their sockets,
This described intense heat.
JLB
Well......yes, it IS people besides the Thessalonians.2 Thessalonians 1:7
And to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven.
The phrase 'to us as well' means Paul includes other people besides the Thessalonians.
IOW: Us = Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy (the authors of the letter) not people 2000+ years later INSTEAD.
I'm not so sure there even were exclusively Gentile churches at this time. Your comment about Jews being segregated from Gentiles "in Paul's time" is one of the things Jesus came to change (it may even be the greatest reason why the religious system was taken from the ancient Jewish religious leaders). St Paul was selected and instructed (I believe) by God to minister to the Gentiles and to bring them the good news of the Gospel.The text (1 Thessalonians 2) states that the Thessalonians were undergoing persecution from their fellow countrymen, i.e., other Thessalonians.
The persecution by the Jews was against the churches in Judea and not against Gentile churches such as in Thessalonica.
Jews in the time of Paul were prohibited from associating with sinful, filthy Gentiles.
Here read the text yourself.
1 Thessalonians 2:14
For you, brethren, became imitators of the churches of God in Christ Jesus that are in Judea, for you also endured the same sufferings at the hands of your own countrymen, even as they did from the Jews.
That's a good question, I think. I'm not sure at this moment. It seems like that's a present wrath (that had already occurred at the writing of this letter - and not something even in their future). The wrath is directed towards those "who killed both the Lord Jesus and their own prophets, and drove us out as well" from verse 15 (so that would be the religious leaders of Jerusalem, as I see it, because that's who is responsible for all that). Unless by "wrath has come upon them" it's being written that the impending Day of Vengeance was sure to be happening soon? I'm not sure what that means. But I am thinking right now that they are referring to the same "coming of wrath" that will "pay back trouble to those who trouble you and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels" as mentioned in their second letter to the Thessalonians.On a side note, what is the wrath described below?
1 Thessalonians 2:16
Hindering us from speaking to the Gentiles so that they may be saved; with the result that they always fill up the measure of their sins. But wrath has come upon them to the utmost.
I was actually going from memory - but have now looked it up and found this:Who said Paul addressed the Thessalonians in '51-52'. That seems to be a rather early date for Paul's authorship.
This is an event BEFORE the Return. It refers to the Sixth Seal worldwide disaster by fire from the sun.Where there is smoke, there is fire.
Rev 19:2 For true and righteous are His judgments, because He has judged the great harlot who corrupted the earth with her fornication; and He has avenged on her the blood of His servants shed by her."
Rev 19:3 Again they said, "Alleluia! Her smoke rises up forever and ever!"
Could be acid?And this shall be the plague with which the Lord will strike all the people who fought against Jerusalem:
Their flesh shall dissolve while they stand on their feet,
Their eyes shall dissolve in their sockets,
And their tongues shall dissolve in their mouths.
Zechariah 14:12
Their flesh shall dissolve while they stand on their feet,
This described intense heat. JLB
- Their eyes shall dissolve in their sockets,
Isaiah 66:15-17 cannot be related to the Return. It is the Lord's Day of fiery wrath against the nations, the Sixth Seal worldwide devastation that commences all the prophesied end time events.I tend to think this is meaning Revelation 19:21 for one. Where I see that being the same event as the following.
Isaiah 66:15 For, behold, the LORD will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.
16 For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many.
Notice that verse 16 mentions His sword. There is also a sword mentioned in Revelation 19:21 as well.
Because that leaves the intended audience (the 1st century Thessalonians) without the rest and relief that Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy had promised. It wasn't in death that they would receive rest from their persecution - it was a stop to the persecution in their lifetime that they were being promised (and God fulfilled that promise - I believe - in 70 A.D....in THEIR lifetime) Christ was revealed from heaven as their King that will forever sit on the throne of David (as they were anticipating). They got that idea from:Why not those you have listed, then everyone since then up until Christ returns? Which would include ppl 2000+ years later, but would also include ppl 100+ years later, 500+ years later, 1000+ years later, so on and so on.
This is an event BEFORE the Return. It refers to the Sixth Seal worldwide disaster by fire from the sun.
And there WAS lots of fire at the destruction of Jerusalem in the 1st century:Where there is smoke, there is fire.
And there WAS lots of fire at the destruction of Jerusalem in the 1st century:
The persecution against the early church wasn't limited to just Jerusalem (as we're discussing now - it affected those in Thessolonica as well.....and most of the Roman empire). In the very beginning (Acts 9) - we see that Saul/Paul had received “letters of authority” from the Sanhedrin in Jerusalem to pursue and persecute Christians all the way to Damascus.How many islands were in Jerusalem during 70 AD?
Rev 6:14 Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place.
Did the greatest earthquake in history occur during 70 AD?
Did cities in other nations fall during 70 AD?
Were the mountains leveled during 70 AD?
BABerean said:Is Satan really a giant flying lizard?
BABerean said:Can spirit beings be bound by a real chain?