Do atheists "steal from God" when they make moral claims?

All morality is rooted in ahinsa, harmlessness, and reciprocity. I don't need a god to tell me that. Wanton, purposeless cruelty has no good fruit.

FireDragon76 said:

All morality is rooted in ahinsa, harmlessness, and reciprocity. I don't need a god to tell me that. Wanton, purposeless cruelty has no good fruit.

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So, let me get this straight. All of that Lutheran material you gave me to read here a while back, and whatever else we've ever talked about that I've gotten from you.....is now passé ?

And that's all it comes down to now? It's all ... just Dust in the Wind?

FireDragon76 said:

One can be an atheist and yet not committed to materialistic metaphysics

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Just out of curiosity, would you mind sharing more of your metaphysical position as an atheist who believes in the survival of consciousness after death. Are you a dualist? Pansychism also seems a viable option given your position. I'm just curious for my own understanding.

AvisG said:

I praise God because I want to, because I feel motivated to, not because I think he demands it.

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If you are doing it because you want to it is because of an internal desire which you fulfil by the act of praise.

So it’s ultimately you fulfilling your desire to praise and not altruistic.

It also raises the question of who put that desire to praise in you (but that’s not for this thread)?

public hermit said:

Just out of curiosity, would you mind sharing more of your metaphysical position as an atheist who believes in the survival of consciousness after death. Are you a dualist? Pansychism also seems a viable option given your position. I'm just curious for my own understanding.

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I'm not sure what those terms mean, or if they could even be genuinely meanigful without buying into Christian categories. Carl Jung and Buddhism are probably my biggest influences currently.

I don't believe the ground of reality can be adequately conceived as a personal being, much less the one depicted in the Bible. Theism ultimately rests on trying to hold together too many absurdities contained within the Omni-God of classical theism. And if you refuse to go along with that sort of language-game, Christians have a long history of marginalization and demonization. So I'm tired of the game.

I'm basically a liberal, humanistic Buddhist. I'm more spiritual now than when I identified as a Lutheran.

2PhiloVoid said:

So, let me get this straight. All of that Lutheran material you gave me to read here a while back, and whatever else we've ever talked about that I've gotten from you.....is now passé ?

And that's all it comes down to now? It's all ... just Dust in the Wind?

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Pretty much. I still see some value in it, I just don't believe in it anymore. I've transcended it, thought out its limits spiritually, and it was time to move on.

FireDragon76 said:

Carl Jung and Buddhism are probably my biggest influences currently.

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I must admit my knowledge set of Jung is a null one. Does Buddhism hold to the survival of the individual conscious after death? Forgive my ignorance, but I thought it was a drop in the water kind of thing.

FireDragon76 said:

And if you refuse to go along with that sort of language-game

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Wittgenstein would be proud.

FireDragon76 said:

Christians have a long history of marginalization and demonization. So I'm tired of the game.

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I bemoan the same. I don't reject the Deity based on the atrocities of the Deity's followers. No religion (or general world-view for that matter) would escape such a critique unscathed, even Buddhism. But, I am sympathetic to why you say that.

FireDragon76 said:

I'm basically a liberal, humanistic Buddhist. I'm more spiritual now than when I identified as a Lutheran.

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Thank you for responding. I am always curious about the metaphysical assumptions of others, since we all have them.

public hermit said:

....I am always curious about the metaphysical assumptions of others, since we all have them.

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Do we?

Is there one metaphysical assumption we all cant live without? Or does it vary among people or cultures?

durangodawood said:

Do we?

Is there one metaphysical assumption we all cant live without? Or does it vary among people or cultures?

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I would say we all (humans in general) make assumptions about reality that cannot be proven by some objective point of view. Even the Nihilist is making an assumption.

Part of why I believe this is because we simply don't have all the facts about reality. And, we have to have some framework that allows us to go forward meaningfully. Even if the framework is simply that there is no meaning, that little bit of "insight" can provide a way to go forward in life. I wouldn't suggest that route, but some are led down it.

Admittedly, many (most?) don't give their metaphysical assumptions much thought, but if pressed I think they will divulge something. We all believe something about reality, and that is really all I am getting at by my statement that we all have them. I suppose there may be some whose frameworks have quit working for them, and so that leads to despair. The human situation almost demands that we try to make some sense of our experience in the world, and when we can't do that we despair. I have been there.

public hermit said:

I would say we all (humans in general) make assumptions about reality that cannot be proven by some objective point of view. Even the Nihilist is making an assumption.

Part of why I believe this is because we simply don't have all the facts about reality. And, we have to have some framework that allows us to go forward meaningfully. Even if the framework is simply that there is no meaning, that little bit of "insight" can provide a way to go forward in life. I wouldn't suggest that route, but some are led down it.

Admittedly, many (most?) don't give their metaphysical assumptions much thought, but if pressed I think they will divulge something. We all believe something about reality, and that is really all I am getting at by my statement that we all have them. I suppose there may be some whose frameworks have quit working for them, and so that leads to despair. The human situation almost demands that we try to make some sense of our experience in the world, and when we can't do that we despair. I have been there.

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Thanks for the thoughtful reply.

I ask because, at first glance, I'm inclined to agree. But then as I think about it I lose all confidence in that position. I'm looking for that one assumption, at minimum, that I must hold to keep operating in the world, and I cant find it.

I think you under value our animal instincts that enable us to be in the world without holding conclusively to ideas and opinions.

durangodawood said:

Thanks for the thoughtful reply.

I ask because, at first glance, I'm inclined to agree. But then as I think about it I lose all confidence in that position. I'm looking for that one assumption, at minimum, that I must hold to keep operating in the world, and I cant find it.

I think you under value our animal instincts that enable us to be in the world without holding conclusively to ideas and opinions.

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Define "operating"?

2PhiloVoid said:

Define "operating"?

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Going through life with health, friendship, and at at least some sense of satisfaction with how youre spending the bulk of your time.

durangodawood said:

Going through life with health, friendship, and at at least some sense of satisfaction with how youre spending the bulk of your time.

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How about this assumption for starters, "Pain hurts!," and then expand out from there ... maybe?

2PhiloVoid said:

How about this assumption for starters, "Pain hurts!," and then expand out from there ... maybe?

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i think youre being a little too mysterious for me. What are you getting at?

durangodawood said:

i think youre being a little too mysterious for me. What are you getting at?

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I find it hard to believe that you can't dredge out a few basic assumptions that all of us human beings can, together, scrounge up. Of course, in saying this, and in line with the premise of this WHOLE thread such as it has become, I'm alluding to that 95% to 96% who are reasonably reasonable, or at least can be with some level of empathy for others.

public hermit said:

I must admit my knowledge set of Jung is a null one. Does Buddhism hold to the survival of the individual conscious after death? Forgive my ignorance, but I thought it was a drop in the water kind of thing.

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Yes to both? Both are possibilities. Clinging to individual existence leads to rebirth in samsaric existence.

public hermit said:

I would say we all (humans in general) make assumptions about reality that cannot be proven by some objective point of view. Even the Nihilist is making an assumption.

Part of why I believe this is because we simply don't have all the facts about reality. And, we have to have some framework that allows us to go forward meaningfully. Even if the framework is simply that there is no meaning, that little bit of "insight" can provide a way to go forward in life. I wouldn't suggest that route, but some are led down it.

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That's why I identify as a humanistic Buddhist, it's the one worldview that seems most comfortable with not knowing the answers.

One of the most moving things for me was reading about the death of a popular meditation teacher a few months ago. The way she approached death, despite not knowing what awaited her, was authentically inspiring. She focused on the things to be grateful for, despite the fact her life was drawing to a close.

The reason I became interested in meditation was a fear I had that I was not living life fully. My mind was always some place else other than being present with my actual life. The Christian hope of heaven, in contrast, is just too uncertain. But what is certain is that if we don't live in the present moment now, it will be gone forever. And life is just too precious an opportunity to sleep walk through it.

2PhiloVoid said:

So, yes, I can see how we shouldn't jump to conclusions by way of some kind of Genetic Fallacy, but at the same time, there are various sociological and psychological considerations that will play into different kinds of utter emotional despondency.

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I think it's pretty clear that you and Pascal are wrong that not caring about the things you've been talking about means a person suffers from "utter emotional despondency". There are a lot of reasons folks don't care about that stuff.

2PhiloVoid said:

Ok. Pascal, despite his limitations, has some relevance for me and it is by this which, with forewarning, I will proceed forward into the future, for better or worse, or until someone hits him out of the park and shows me that "all that kind of thing" that he talks about is utter rubbish.

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I read that 194 you kept telling me to, and I counted a No True Scotsman, Argument From Incredulity, and a rather lengthy Strawman. It's a really poor argument, but you can understand my reluctance to put the effort into writing a bunch of detail about it with you, I hope.

2PhiloVoid said:

If I were you, I wouldn't own up to any labeling of sociopathy unless you've had more than one psychological professional actually confirm and classify you as such. As for myself, I do take offense at being called a sociopath, especially if I think I'm doing the Lord's Will as best I can and by my best "lights"......................some of which I already know in advance won't jive with various other people in the world around me.

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Then you should understand how silly it is for you to be throwing the term about as an Apologetic tool. If you don't think I should use it on myself, even though I have a degree in clinical psychology (just Associate's, yeah, yeah), and I know myself better than anyone else, you really shouldn't be using it for other folks. You probably noticed my comment later in the post was directed at you. I wasn't making any real attempt at an "expert opinion", it was simply illustrative of how easy it is to cast that net.

2PhiloVoid said:

...oh ok. It's a very good thing you explained this to me, otherwise I would have thought he was referring to how the dash, as a hyphen, could then be seen as an unfortuitous metaphor for "being dashed" in life BY other people. Man, I see that hermeneutics (and some educated commentary) is important here, even in the funny business.

So, I guess I'll see if I can find some Hedberg material on Y.T. and give him a listen.

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You'll like Mitch a lot. And his jokes are great, but it's best when you hear them as opposed to reading them. Even when I tell them in real life I have to use Mitch's inflection because his delivery is so endearing.

I mentioned Anthony Jeselnik earlier; don't look him up. I know you're no prude and all, but the odds of you stumbling on some of the few jokes that you're not going to just hate is pretty slim. He's famous for being one of the most dark comics ever.