If James White commits murder tomorrow....

S.ilvio said:

Indeed.

Repentance of sin is a core component to maintaining God's grace...

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Good Day,

Nope... Being granted Repentance is a gift of God's Grace.

Grace by definition does not need to be maintained it is the very being of God.

In Him,

Bill

renniks said:

Good question. The Bible makes it clear that people can fall away from the faith. Calvinists are illogical, IMO.

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Good Day, Renniks

Certainly not a question... your option for sure, but you are incorrect and that is ok.

Augustine (354-430): Of such says the apostle, “We know that to those that love God He worketh together all things for good, to them who are called according to His purpose; because those whom He before foreknew, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the first-born among many brethren. Moreover, whom He did predestinate, them He also called; and whom He called, them He also justified; and whom He justified, them He also glorified.” Of these no one perishes, because all are elected. And they are elected because they were called according to the purpose — the purpose, however, not their own, but God’s; of which He elsewhere says, “That the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of Him that calleth, it was said unto her that the elder shall serve the younger.” And in another place he says, “Not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace.” When, therefore, we hear,” Moreover, whom He did predestinate, them He also called,” we ought to acknowledge that they were called according to His purpose; since He thence began, saying, “He worketh together all things for good to those who are called according to His purpose,” and then added, “Because those whom He before foreknew, He also did predestinate, to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the first-born among many brethren And to these promises He added, “Moreover, whom, He did predestinate, them He also called.” He wishes these, therefore, to be understood whom He called according to His purpose, lest any among them should be thought to be called and not elected, on account of that sentence of the Lord’s: “Many the called but few are elected.” For whoever are elected are without doubt also called; but not whosoever are called are as a consequence elected. Those, then, are elected, as has often been said, who are called according to the purpose, who also are predestinated and foreknown. If any one of these perishes, God is mistaken; but none of them perishes, because God is not mistaken. If any one of these perish, God is overcome by human sin; but none of them perishes, because God is overcome by nothing. Moreover, they are elected to reign with Christ, not as Judas was elected, to a work for which he was fitted. Because he was chosen by Him who well knew how to make use even of wicked men, so that even by his damnable deed that venerable work, for the sake of which He Himself had come, might be accomplished. When, therefore, we hear, “Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?” we ought to understand that the rest were elected by mercy, but he by judgment; those to obtain His kingdom, he to shed His blood! NPNF1: Vol. V, A Treatise

In Him,

Bill

BBAS 64 said:

Good Day, Renniks

Certainly not a question... your option for sure, but you are incorrect and that is ok.

Augustine (354-430): Of such says the apostle, “We know that to those that love God He worketh together all things for good, to them who are called according to His purpose; because those whom He before foreknew, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the first-born among many brethren. Moreover, whom He did predestinate, them He also called; and whom He called, them He also justified; and whom He justified, them He also glorified.” Of these no one perishes, because all are elected. And they are elected because they were called according to the purpose — the purpose, however, not their own, but God’s; of which He elsewhere says, “That the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of Him that calleth, it was said unto her that the elder shall serve the younger.” And in another place he says, “Not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace.” When, therefore, we hear,” Moreover, whom He did predestinate, them He also called,” we ought to acknowledge that they were called according to His purpose; since He thence began, saying, “He worketh together all things for good to those who are called according to His purpose,” and then added, “Because those whom He before foreknew, He also did predestinate, to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the first-born among many brethren And to these promises He added, “Moreover, whom, He did predestinate, them He also called.” He wishes these, therefore, to be understood whom He called according to His purpose, lest any among them should be thought to be called and not elected, on account of that sentence of the Lord’s: “Many the called but few are elected.” For whoever are elected are without doubt also called; but not whosoever are called are as a consequence elected. Those, then, are elected, as has often been said, who are called according to the purpose, who also are predestinated and foreknown. If any one of these perishes, God is mistaken; but none of them perishes, because God is not mistaken. If any one of these perish, God is overcome by human sin; but none of them perishes, because God is overcome by nothing. Moreover, they are elected to reign with Christ, not as Judas was elected, to a work for which he was fitted. Because he was chosen by Him who well knew how to make use even of wicked men, so that even by his damnable deed that venerable work, for the sake of which He Himself had come, might be accomplished. When, therefore, we hear, “Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?” we ought to understand that the rest were elected by mercy, but he by judgment; those to obtain His kingdom, he to shed His blood! NPNF1: Vol. V, A Treatise

In Him,

Bill

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Quoting Augustine isn't going to change my mind. He's the one who brought this false teaching into the church.

redleghunter said:

Apostates were never saved by Grace.

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That's funny. So, one can have true faith and not be saved? Why would we be warned about falling away if it weren't possible? Oh, I know what you're gonna say. "We might not really be saved to begin with." Then, there would be no need of the warning, because we would be reprobates and it would be impossible for us to be saved. This is just one of the many illogical ideas that Calvinists promote. You pretty much have to leave your brain at the door to subscribe to this teaching.

Hammster said:

No he’s not. Grace isn’t dependent upon our actions.

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By grace, through faith. No faith, no grace. Not hard to understand...

renniks said:

That's funny. So, one can have true faith and not be saved? Why would we be warned about falling away if it weren't possible? Oh, I know what you're gonna say. "We might not really be saved to begin with." Then, there would be no need of the warning, because we would be reprobates and it would be impossible for us to be saved. This is just one of the many illogical ideas that Calvinists promote. You pretty much have to leave your brain at the door to subscribe to this teaching.

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One more time...

This is ask a Calvinist, please review the rules ask a question.

renniks said:

Quoting Augustine isn't going to change my mind. He's the one who brought this false teaching into the church.

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Thanks for you option... kind of useless but never the less thanks for it

BBAS 64 said:

Thanks for you option... kind of useless but never the less thanks for it

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"Your answer must be in the form of a question." Sorry, didn't know this was Jeopardy. Wasn't it Augustine who started the whole Calvinist movement? I can't find any earlier church fathers that pushed it? Why should I believe something that the people who learned from the apostles didn't believe?

Hammster said:

Our faith is because of His grace. So, grace is not dependent upon our actions.

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Is faith an action? I didn't say we had to do certain actions. I said we had to have faith. Is faith a work?

BBAS 64 said:

One more time...

This is ask a Calvinist, please review the rules ask a question.

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I did actually. Again: "Why would we be warned about falling away if it weren't possible? "

renniks said:

"Your answer must be in the form of a question." Sorry, didn't know this was Jeopardy. Wasn't it Augustine who started the whole Calvinist movement? I can't find any earlier church fathers that pushed it? Why should I believe something that the people who learned from the apostles didn't believe?

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I am sure I could not agree with your construction of "calvinist movement" so your question is flawed.

I would remind you of Spurgeon "Calvinism is just a nickname" for the Gospel. So it started with the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit before the world began.

renniks said:

I did actually. Again: "Why would we be warned about falling away if it weren't possible? "

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Good Day, Renniks

Scripture correctly understood never warns me of that.... you may feel that way, but that is more about you and not the clear teaching of Scripture. So I would ask to be excluded from your "we" because it does not represent me.

In Him,

Bill

Hammster said:

Yes. But grace isn’t dependent upon faith.

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Yes, faith is a work? The apostle Paul would not agree.

BBAS 64 said:

Good Day, Renniks

Scripture correctly understood never warns me of that.... you may feel that way, but that is more about you and not the clear teaching of Scripture. So I would ask to be excluded from your "we" because it does not represent me.

In Him,

Bill

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Thanks for the two non answers, I guess?

Hammster said:

Yes he would.

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7 Understand, then, that those who have faith are children of Abraham. 8 Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: “All nations will be blessed through you.”[d] 9 So those who rely on faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.

10 For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse....

renniks said:

Thanks for the two non answers, I guess?

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You are welcome....