Salvation Cannot be Lost

Phil W

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A good place to stop with your post. You're just not facing reality.
So let's review your claim. You claim that believers have a new sinless nature, and have lost their sinful nature. And thus, do not sin any more.
I'm going to provide some verses that shreds your claim to pieces.
OK, but let's keep in mind that 2 Cor 5:17 says..."Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."

Gal 5:13 - You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh ; rather, serve one another humbly in love.
Paul identifies his audience as saved believers at the beginning of the verse. Then he instructs them to NOT USE THEIR FREEDOM to indulge the flesh (sin). How is that possible is your view were correct? It just isn't possible.
If it isn't possible, why does Paul instruct them to do it?
Is he just wasting his "ink"?

v.16 - So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh.
Another verse you cannot explain from your view. If your claim were true, it wouldn't be possible to "gratify the desires of the flesh".
It isn't possible...if you adhere to Paul's exhortation.
Walk in the Spirit and you won't sin!
Isn't that the truth?

v.17 - For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want.
Very clearly, Paul lays out the struggle for EVERY BELIEVER. We STILL have the "flesh", which is our sinful nature. The Holy Spirit functions from our new nature and is in conflict with our flesh. Plain and simple.
If one is in the flesh, they won't do the things of the Spirit.
If one is in the Spirit, they won't do the things of the fleshly minded.
You look at it from the flesh's perspective, but I see it from the Spirit's perspective.
The things you can't do are of the Spirit and the things I can't do are of the flesh...because I walk in the Spirit, as v 16 above admonished.

Gal 6:1 - Brothers and sisters, if someone is caught in a sin, you who live by the Spirit should restore that person gently. But watch yourselves, or you also may be tempted.
This isn't evangelism. The "someone" here is a fellow believer and mature believers are instructed to restore that person gently. But in your claim, it would not be possible for a believer to be "caught in a sin" in the first place.
You are absolutely correct.
The one deemed "caught in sin" wasn't a believer.
Had he been a believer, he would have believed that God won't allow anyone to be tempted above what they can handle.
And God will provide an escape. (1 Cor 10:13)

v.3 - If anyone thinks they are something when they are not, they deceive themselves.
This verse directly applies to YOU.
Are you sure?

Eph 3:8 - Although I am less than the least of all the Lord’s people, this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the boundless riches of Christ,
Paul's testimony proves that your claim is wrong. Your claim would make ALL believers equal, because they are sinless. But Paul says differently.
I guess self-abasement is wasted on you.
Do you have the revelations Paul received from face to face encounters with Christ?
NO?
Then I guess he is actually "more" than you, or I, for that matter.
He became a servant to every church he founded, not the leader.
As far as "equal", all those in Christ are equal.
John tells us..."Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous." (1 John 3:6-7)
"Is righteous, even as He is righteous"!
Unbelievers can't identify with that, but believers can...thanks be to God.

Eph 4:1 - As a prisoner for the Lord, then, I urge you to live a life worthy of the calling you have received.
Why would Paul urge any believer to "live a life worthy of their calling" if all believers don't sin anymore? You cannot answer that.

v.17 - So I tell you this, and insist on it in the Lord, that you must no longer live as the Gentiles do, in the futility of their thinking.
Why would Paul tell sinless believers to "no longer live as the Gentiles (unbelievers) do?

v.22 - You were taught, with regard to your former way of life, to put off your old self, which is being corrupted by its deceitful desires;
Why would any sinless believer need to "put of their old self"?? Hm?

v.25-31
Therefore each of you must put off falsehood and speak truthfully to your neighbor, for we are all members of one body.
26 “In your anger do not sin” : Do not let the sun go down while you are still angry,
27 and do not give the devil a foothold.
28 Anyone who has been stealing must steal no longer, but must work, doing something useful with their own hands, that they may have something to share with those in need.
29 Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen.
30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
31 Get rid of all bitterness, rage and anger, brawling and slander, along with every form of malice.

None of these commands would be necessary if your claim were true.
in fact, such behavior would be IMPOSSIBLE if your claim were true.
Can't you see that they are "necessary" for the unbelievers?
You outright reject all the exhortations and teaching of Paul.
The message is for you, and for all men clinging to their old lives in the flesh.
After reading these admonishments, you have no excuse to keep sinning.

Eph 5:3-4
3 But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God’s holy people.
4 Nor should there be obscenity, foolish talk or coarse joking, which are out of place, but rather thanksgiving.
Why would Paul need to tell sinless believers that there "must not be even a hint of immorality, impurity or greed"??
And why would Paul tell these sinless believers what else there shouldn't be among them?
You see, your claim has tremendous holes in it.
v.6 - Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God’s wrath comes on those who are disobedient.
You have been deceived with empty words, such as "believers no longer sin". And notice the result of your deceit.
I guess you must have missed the part that say "God's wrath comes on the those who are DISOBEDIENT.
Isn't it those who continue to walk in, and war after, the flesh who are disobedient?

v.11 - Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them.
This is what I have been doing with you.
v.15 - Be very careful, then, how you live—not as unwise but as wise,
All believers MUST BE very careful how they live. How is that even relevant if ALL believers do not sin any more??
All believers must be careful how they live...but if they are careful how they live they will meet folks like you who will try to belittle and defame the obedient.
All believers adhere to the words of Christ and those of His apostles and prophets'
If your version of life in Christ were of God, there would be no admonishments, warnings, or exhortations.
Live any way you want...you already are guaranteed eternal life...live it up!

v.17 - Therefore do not be foolish, but understand what the Lord’s will is.
How could Paul write this to sinless believers? He wouldn't have.
v.18 - Do not get drunk on wine, which leads to debauchery. Instead, be filled with the Spirit,
This is a command for believers. But totally unnecessary if believers do not sin.
Phil 1:27 - Whatever happens, conduct yourselves in a manner worthy of the gospel of Christ. Then, whether I come and see you or only hear about you in my absence, I will know that you stand firm in the one Spirit, striving together as one for the faith of the gospel
If your claim were true, then none of this would need to be said, because it would be automatic for these sinless believers.
There is NO NEED to ever tell a sinless person how to "conduct themselves" since they are conducting themselves perfectly (sinlessly).
So, you see, your claim is in error, unbiblical.
If you try to argue that these verses are directly to unsaved people, you will just prove how disconnected from truth you are.
I wasn't "sinless" when I started reading the bible.
I had not yet learned how to cast away the flesh and be united as one with Christ. How to be rid of the old man and his hideous nature, and how to be reborn of God's seed.
I have learned so much from my readings of Paul and other disciples of the Lord.
I thank God in the name of Jesus Christ for the writers of the NT.

Why do you think that those who have taken the exhortations to heart are the bad people?
 
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FreeGrace2

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OK, but let's keep in mind that 2 Cor 5:17 says..."Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."
When a dichotomous person BECOMES a try-chotomous person, that is new.

The verse does NOT support your claim that the flesh is destroyed and gone. And I proved the fact that believers still contend with their flesh.

If it isn't possible, why does Paul instruct them to do it?
Is he just wasting his "ink"?

I said:
"Gal 5:13 - You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh ; rather, serve one another humbly in love.
Paul identifies his audience as saved believers at the beginning of the verse. Then he instructs them to NOT USE THEIR FREEDOM to indulge the flesh (sin). How is that possible is your view were correct? It just isn't possible."
It isn't possible...if you adhere to Paul's exhortation.
Walk in the Spirit and you won't sin!
Isn't that the truth?
Don't you see your on contradiction here?? Walking in the Spirit is a choice to make. It isn't automatic, as you think.

When I said "it isn't possible" I meant it in the context of your claim. Which is believers cannot sin because the sin nature was destroyed/removed/whatever. But Paul specifically says NOT to indulge the flesh. That is contrary to your claims.

If one is in the flesh, they won't do the things of the Spirit.
If one is in the Spirit, they won't do the things of the fleshly minded.
Hey, that's MY point. But you've been saying all along that believers no longer sin. So, you are now speaking out of both sides of your mouth.

You look at it from the flesh's perspective, but I see it from the Spirit's perspective.
Wrong. I look at it from the Bible's perspective, which doesn't support your claim.

The things you can't do are of the Spirit and the things I can't do are of the flesh...because I walk in the Spirit, as v 16 above admonished.
The very next verse proves that there is a conflict within each believer, which you have basically denied.

You are absolutely correct.
The one deemed "caught in sin" wasn't a believer.
And what gives you that idea? And explain how an unbeliever is RESTORED. That alone doesn't make any sense. Unbelievers need to be reborn, not restored. Which you, again, cannot explain.

Had he been a believer, he would have believed that God won't allow anyone to be tempted above what they can handle.
And God will provide an escape. (1 Cor 10:13)
You are just ignoring very clear Scripture.

"v.3 - If anyone thinks they are something when they are not, they deceive themselves.
This verse directly applies to YOU."
Are you sure?
Absolutely! And I proved it with the verses I quoted and you just keep ignoring.

I guess self-abasement is wasted on you.
I have no idea what your point is here.

Do you have the revelations Paul received from face to face encounters with Christ?
NO?
I sure do. All that he was permitted to tell. Of course, there were some that he wasn't permitted to tell. But you'd have had to read the Bible to know that.

Then I guess he is actually "more" than you, or I, for that matter.
So you're arguing with Paul, huh.

This is what he said:
"Eph 3:8 - Although I am less than the least of all the Lord’s people, this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the boundless riches of Christ,"

And I said:
"Paul's testimony proves that your claim is wrong. Your claim would make ALL believers equal, because they are sinless. But Paul says differently."

He became a servant to every church he founded, not the leader.
OK.

As far as "equal", all those in Christ are equal.
Again, those who actually read the Bible know the truth:

1 Cor 11:19 - No doubt there have to be differences among you to show which of you have God’s approval.

Are you going to keep arguing with Paul? Or just finally believe what he said?

John tells us..."Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
Yes!! Those IN fellowship with the Lord are NOT sinning. Exactly!

Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous." (1 John 3:6-7)
Again, when IN fellowship.

I said:
"v.25-31
Therefore each of you must put off falsehood and speak truthfully to your neighbor, for we are all members of one body.
26 “In your anger do not sin” : Do not let the sun go down while you are still angry,
27 and do not give the devil a foothold.
28 Anyone who has been stealing must steal no longer, but must work, doing something useful with their own hands, that they may have something to share with those in need.
29 Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen.
30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
31 Get rid of all bitterness, rage and anger, brawling and slander, along with every form of malice.

None of these commands would be necessary if your claim were true.
in fact, such behavior would be IMPOSSIBLE if your claim were true."
Can't you see that they are "necessary" for the unbelievers?
No, I can't, and you haven't provided any explanation of why they would be.

To what would it benefit any unbeliever to follow?

You outright reject all the exhortations and teaching of Paul.
Wow, this is just delusional. You are the one who is arguing with Paul's writings. So delusional, you are totally unaware of it.

The message is for you, and for all men clinging to their old lives in the flesh.
Why do you make the totally false claim that I'm "clinging to my old life in the flesh"?

After reading these admonishments, you have no excuse to keep sinning.
No one has any excuse to keep sinning. I've never suggested otherwise, in spite of your outlandish insinuations.

The point of the Bible is that believers will continue to sin. And teach about how to avoid sin, and what to do as a solution when they do sin.

All of which you flatly deny.

I guess you must have missed the part that say "God's wrath comes on the those who are DISOBEDIENT.
Uh, no. In fact, I have consistently taught Arminians (not that they have learned) that believers who are disobedient will be disciplined by God, and that discipline is painful, according to Heb 12:11.

Isn't it those who continue to walk in, and war after, the flesh who are disobedient?
Yes.

All believers must be careful how they live...but if they are careful how they live they will meet folks like you who will try to belittle and defame the obedient.
You are again LYING. I've NEVER even attempted to belittle or defame you. I HAVE rejected your false teaching about being sinless and proven it from Scripture.

But, to your point here, WHY must believers "be careful how they live" IF your claim is true; that believers no longer sin, because the sinful nature has been neutralized and gone?? This is the issue that you have NEVER EVER ANSWERED. Because you can't.

All believers adhere to the words of Christ and those of His apostles and prophets'
Well then, please explain WHY they have to "be careful how they live", as you just stated?

Don't you see your double minded contradictions?

If your version of life in Christ were of God, there would be no admonishments, warnings, or exhortations.
Uh, no, that would be yours.

The FACT that believers have an internal struggle to deal with, per Gal 5:17, refutes your false claim that believers no longer sin.

Live any way you want...you already are guaranteed eternal life...live it up!
Yeah, that's the bottom line error in your theology. You just can't stand the thought that rebellious children will get to live with their Heavenly Father.

I guess you just HATE the notion that eternal life is guaranteed from the MOMENT one believes. But that's the truth. But it is the Lord Jesus himself who gave us that PROMISE.

How does it feel to HATE what Jesus promised?

I wasn't "sinless" when I started reading the bible.
Of course you weren't. You still aren't, if the Bible is true, and we KNOW it is true.

I had not yet learned how to cast away the flesh and be united as one with Christ.
Oh, I see. Its all about you, isn't it. About what you DID. Well, bully for you.

How to be rid of the old man and his hideous nature, and how to be reborn of God's seed.
So please explain what you learned about "how to be reborn of God's seed". What did you actually do to accomplish this wonderful feat.

I have learned so much from my readings of Paul and other disciples of the Lord.
No, you only argue with Paul, as I have been pointing out.

I thank God in the name of Jesus Christ for the writers of the NT.
Why don't you believe them OR Jesus, who GUARANTEES that recipients of eternal life shall never perish? In fact, you just HATE that promise, don't you. It just bugs you to no end.

Why do you think that those who have taken the exhortations to heart are the bad people?
I never said anything about taking the exhortations being taken to heart are by bad people.

If you aren't clear as to who I think are the bad people, it's those who claim to be Christians, yet reject the truth of Scripture especially after it's been presented to you repeatedly, and those who reject the guarantee of Jesus about recipients of eternal life never perishing.

You just can't stand the thought of such an idea, huh.

Perfect you having to rub elbows with those horrible sinners who got let in.
 
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Phil W

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When a dichotomous person BECOMES a try-chotomous person, that is new.
Your man's wisdom carries no weight.
The old is gone, or Paul was a liar.

The verse does NOT support your claim that the flesh is destroyed and gone. And I proved the fact that believers still contend with their flesh.
Then Paul was a liar. (2 Cor 5:17, Gal 5:24)
Also in Romans 7:4 and 8:9.

If it isn't possible, why does Paul instruct them to do it?
Is he just wasting his "ink"?
Impossible?
It isn't impossible to walk away from being Christian.
From a true repentance from sin.
From belief.

I said:
"Gal 5:13 - You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh ; rather, serve one another humbly in love.
Paul identifies his audience as saved believers at the beginning of the verse. Then he instructs them to NOT USE THEIR FREEDOM to indulge the flesh (sin). How is that possible is your view were correct? It just isn't possible."
Don't you see your on contradiction here?? Walking in the Spirit is a choice to make. It isn't automatic, as you think.
Those who love God above all else "automatically" do the things they are exhorted to do.
That is part of having a divine nature.

When I said "it isn't possible" I meant it in the context of your claim. Which is believers cannot sin because the sin nature was destroyed/removed/whatever. But Paul specifically says NOT to indulge the flesh. That is contrary to your claims.
If they were really believers they would never turn against a God who has promised to send traitors to the lake of fire.
It is the border-line followers Paul is concerned about.
The waverers.
There were also false believers in the churches then as there are in today's churches.

Hey, that's MY point. But you've been saying all along that believers no longer sin. So, you are now speaking out of both sides of your mouth.
Your point is that men walk in the Spirit and in the flesh.
That is unbiblical.

No one has any excuse to keep sinning. I've never suggested otherwise, in spite of your outlandish insinuations.
Your insistence that men still walk in the flesh after rebirth guarantees more sin.
You have made the excuse part of your creed..."Salvation cannot be lost"...and "No sin will keep you out of heaven."

The point of the Bible is that believers will continue to sin. And teach about how to avoid sin, and what to do as a solution when they do sin.
All of which you flatly deny.
The 'point of the bible' is to show that we don't have to be subject to sin anymore.
The "point of the NT" is freedom from sin.

So please explain what you learned about "how to be reborn of God's seed". What did you actually do to accomplish this wonderful feat.
How I wish you had an earnest interest in rebirth.
I learned that God made a way for it to happen, but only after the death of the old man.

Why don't you believe them OR Jesus, who GUARANTEES that recipients of eternal life shall never perish? In fact, you just HATE that promise, don't you. It just bugs you to no end.
I do believe it, as those that "follow the Shepherd" will be judged worthy of eternal life on the day of judgement.

If you aren't clear as to who I think are the bad people, it's those who claim to be Christians, yet reject the truth of Scripture especially after it's been presented to you repeatedly, and those who reject the guarantee of Jesus about recipients of eternal life never perishing.
I know the promise is to those "sheep" who follow Him.
Those who don't "follow Him" are excluded.

You just can't stand the thought of such an idea, huh.
Perfect you having to rub elbows with those horrible sinners who got let in.
No sinner will be in heaven with God.
Sinners hate God...as per Matt 6:24.
 
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FreeGrace2

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Your man's wisdom carries no weight.
The old is gone, or Paul was a liar.
Well, in your fantasy, Paul IS a liar.

Then Paul was a liar. (2 Cor 5:17, Gal 5:24)
Also in Romans 7:4 and 8:9.
Yes, that's the conclusion of your fantasies.

Those who love God above all else "automatically" do the things they are exhorted to do.
That is part of having a divine nature.
Your naivety is truly amazing.

If they were really believers they would never turn against a God who has promised to send traitors to the lake of fire.
Explain Jesus' parable regarding the second soil.

It is the border-line followers Paul is concerned about.
The waverers.
There is no such thing. The Bible NEVER makes such nonsense descriptors.

There were also false believers in the churches then as there are in today's churches.
Once again, just more nonsense unbiblical descriptors; to bolster your fantasies.

The Bible NEVER EVER says "false believers". Look it up yourself.

Your point is that men walk in the Spirit and in the flesh.
Again, you fail to read properly. How can I have any kind of adult discussion with you when you continue to read so poorly and fail to grasp what I say?

My point, which is the Bible's point, is that believers walk in the Spirit OR in the flesh.

You have only tried to pervert what I've said. You twist my words just as easily as you twist the Scriptures. You need to stop it.

That is unbiblical.
What you do certainly is.

Your insistence that men still walk in the flesh after rebirth guarantees more sin.
Your fantasies have gotten away with you. Sin is "guaranteed" because the believer continues to HAVE his human (sinful) nature. You cannot prove otherwise. All you've done is prove your inability to rightly divide the word of truth.

All the commands for believers to "live worthy", and stopping certain behaviors, etc proves that believers not only have the ability to sin, but do sin. Which you have denied.

You have made the excuse part of your creed..."Salvation cannot be lost"...and "No sin will keep you out of heaven."
OK, let's unpack this mess.

The phrase "salvation cannot be lost" is proven by the very words of Jesus in John 10:28.

I give them eternal life and they shall never perish. Period.

The phrase "no sin will keep you out of heaven" is biblical because Jesus Christ died for ALL SINS.

But don't believe what I say. But DO believe what the Bible says.

Col 2:13 - When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins

So, how many sins does God forgive the believer? Your unbiblical view is "only our past sins". Which I've already disproven from Hebrews 7 and 10. Did you bother to read that post?

The 'point of the bible' is to show that we don't have to be subject to sin anymore.
Right. We don't have to. But the point of all the commands against sin and commands for holiness is because we DO sin.

The "point of the NT" is freedom from sin.
Believers are free from the penalty of sin. I've already been through the 3 tenses of salvation. Do you need a refresher?

How I wish you had an earnest interest in rebirth.
I have no idea what your snide insinuation means here. But know this; I am VERY INTERESTED in the new birth.

Do you know what, specifically, has been born AGAIN? Or RE-born? I'll bet not.

I learned that God made a way for it to happen, but only after the death of the old man.
You know nothing at all, if that's your opinion.

I do believe it, as those that "follow the Shepherd" will be judged worthy of eternal life on the day of judgement.
If one must be "worthy of eternal life", which only occurs on the day of judgment, then your really don't know anything at all. Because that is only more works-based salvation, which is anathema to God's grace and the work of Christ on the cross for our salvation.

I know the promise is to those "sheep" who follow Him.
Those who don't "follow Him" are excluded.
Except you cannot defend your opinion here. The context is clear. Jesus' sheep are believers. v.27 is a description of what they DO, or a policy statement of what they OUGHT TO DO.

v.28 isn't about what the recipients do, but what Jesus Christ DOES for the recipients.

No sinner will be in heaven with God.
You keep saying that. Doesn't matter. Every human being is a sinner. Some will be in heaven.

Sinners hate God...as per Matt 6:24.
OK.

Why did Paul urge the church in Thessalonica to "live lives worthy of God"? Was he giving them the way to heaven? 1 Thess 2:12 - encouraging, comforting and urging you to live lives worthy of God, who calls you into his kingdom and glory.

And, why did Paul write this:

1 Thess 4:1 - As for other matters, brothers and sisters, we instructed you how to live in order to please God, as in fact you are living. Now we ask you and urge you in the Lord Jesus to do this more and more.

So, explain why instructions are needed if believers have lost their sin natures and cannot sin anymore?

If a person is no longer sinning, wouldn't that be all that is needed to please God?

And why did Paul add v.3 - It is God’s will that you should be sanctified: that you should avoid sexual immorality;

And if you think every believer in Thessalonica had quit sinning, what about:

2 Thess 3:6 - In the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, we command you, brothers and sisters, to keep away from every believer who is idle and disruptive and does not live according to the teaching you received from us.

I expect your defense will be that these verses apply to unbelievers. But v.6 specifically says BELIEVERS.

Moreover, consider these verses in 2 Thess 3:
14 Take special note of anyone who does not obey our instruction in this letter. Do not associate with them, in order that they may feel ashamed.
15 Yet do not regard them as an enemy, but warn them as you would a fellow believer.

It makes NO SENSE and would be very STUPID to claim that such people were unbelievers given what Paul wrote.

You have no excuse for your views. They are totally unbiblical, which I've proven from Scripture.
 
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Phil W

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Well, in your fantasy, Paul IS a liar.
Hardly, as I believe his words in 2 Cor 15 are true.
Old things are gone and ALL things are made new.

Explain Jesus' parable regarding the second soil.
It is written..."And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprung up, and choked them:" (Matt 13:7)
Counter to your OP. it seems some do fall away.

There is no such thing. The Bible NEVER makes such nonsense descriptors.
Once again, just more nonsense unbiblical descriptors; to bolster your fantasies.
The Bible NEVER EVER says "false believers". Look it up yourself.
It is written..."And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage:" (Gal 2:4)

My point, which is the Bible's point, is that believers walk in the Spirit OR in the flesh.
If they are walking in the flesh, they are not Christ's.
It is written..."And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts." (Gal 5:24)
Believers can't walk in the flesh, as the flesh was killed and buried with Christ, at baptism. (Rom 6:3-6)
And...
"For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his." (Rom 8:5-9)
Your "believers" who walk in the flesh "are none of His".

All the commands for believers to "live worthy", and stopping certain behaviors, etc proves that believers not only have the ability to sin, but do sin. Which you have denied.
Only unbelievers ignore the exhortations and admonishments of God's prophets.
If "believers" sin, they were never really believers.
As God's seed within them prevents sin, (1 John 3:9), they were obviously never reborn of God.

OK, let's unpack this mess.
The phrase "salvation cannot be lost" is proven by the very words of Jesus in John 10:28.
I give them eternal life and they shall never perish. Period.
Agreed, as it is given to those who follow Him.
But not to those who don't.

The phrase "no sin will keep you out of heaven" is biblical because Jesus Christ died for ALL SINS.
Show the scripture that says "no sin will keep you out of heaven".
Compare it to Matt 7:23..."And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

Col 2:13 - When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins
So, how many sins does God forgive the believer? Your unbiblical view is "only our past sins". Which I've already disproven from Hebrews 7 and 10. Did you bother to read that post?
What happened? Did you give up that tactic and now are trying anther false doctrine?
Now future sins are also forgiven at baptism in Jesus' name for the remission of sins?
Sorry, but a true repentance from sin is required before any baptism. (Acts 2:38)
You proved nothing with your...views...on Heb 7 and 10.

Except you cannot defend your opinion here. The context is clear. Jesus' sheep are believers. John 10:27 is a description of what they DO, or a policy statement of what they OUGHT TO DO.
And whose sheep are the ones who DON'T do as the good Shepherd says?

v.28 isn't about what the recipients do, but what Jesus Christ DOES for the recipients.
Except His sheep follow Him.

You keep saying that. Doesn't matter. Every human being is a sinner.
Not those who have the seed of God in them, (1 John 3:9)
Or those who "walk not after the flesh". (Rom 8:1)
Or those who are "carnally minded". (Rom 8:6-8)
Or those with the Spirit of God. (Rom 8:9)
Or those who "through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body".(Rom 8:13)

You can't prove sin is OK to a man who is reborn of, and carries the seed of, God.



 
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FreeGrace2

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I said:
"Every human being is a sinner."
Not those who have the seed of God in them, (1 John 3:9)
They are WHEN they are grieving or quenching the Holy Spirit.

Or those who "walk not after the flesh". (Rom 8:1)
Sure. Not then. But they ARE when they grieve/quench the Spirit.

Or those who are "carnally minded". (Rom 8:6-8)
I think you mean "not carnally minded". So I'll forgive your typo. Yes, the believer isn't sinning WHEN he/she is not carnally minded.

But your fantasy is that every believer is ALWAYS not carnally minded.

Or those with the Spirit of God. (Rom 8:9)
Having the Holy Spirit living in you doesn't keep you from sin. The command to NOT grieve/quench the Spirit is to believers, which refutes your opinion.

Or those who "through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body".(Rom 8:13)
Right. Not at THAT TIME. But since believers still have the "flesh to mortify", it should be obvious to any reasonable and rational believer that the flesh still needs to be contended with. As Paul clearly explained in Rom 7.

You can't prove sin is OK to a man who is reborn of, and carries the seed of, God.
I would NEVER EVER try to prove such stupidity.

What is totally baffling to me is that you keep thinking that is my goal.

It is NEVER OK to sin. EVER. Got it?

What you can't seem to let sink into your skull is the reality that believers still have their flesh to contend with, and the issue of sin is not a "one and done deal", as you imagine.

Col 1:24 - Now I rejoice in what I am suffering for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ’s afflictions, for the sake of his body, which is the church.

Same word (flesh) found here:
Gal 5-
13 You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh; rather, serve one another humbly in love. 15 If you bite and devour each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other.

This verse proves that believers STILL HAVE their flesh (sinful nature).

And don't forget v.16 - So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh.

But you have already admitted you don't understand what fellowship and the filling of the Spirit are.

What is clear from these verses is the FACT that believers didn't lose their "flesh" when they were born again.
 
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Phil W

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I said:
"Every human being is a sinner."

But your fantasy is that every believer is ALWAYS not carnally minded.
It is no fantasy, as God has given us everything we need not only to kill the old man-nature-flesh, but to stay in the Spirit without end.

Having the Holy Spirit living in you doesn't keep you from sin. The command to NOT grieve/quench the Spirit is to believers, which refutes your opinion.
Being told not to kill doesn't make one a murderer.
Being told not to grieve the Spirit doesn't make one a griever of the Spirit.
Why does being told not to do something make you think they have done that deed already?
You too are told not to commit murder. Does that mean you ever committed murder?

I would NEVER EVER try to prove such stupidity. (That sin is OK)
What is totally baffling to me is that you keep thinking that is my goal.
It is NEVER OK to sin. EVER. Got it?
Your response doesn't fit in with your belief that all men commit sin.
If it isn't "OK", with God or man, why must men do it?
Fact is, they don't.
God gave us the gift of repentance, from sin, so we don't have to sin anymore...ever.
He gave us the gift of baptism in Jesus' name for the remission of past sins; the washing by the blood of the perfect, sanctifying, sacrifice.
And He gave us the gift of the Holy Ghost, the seal of the inheritance, the Comforter, the mind of Christ.
And He gave us verses like..."There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it." (1 Cor 10:13)...to insure we never sin again.
Your doctrine dismisses the love of God for those wishing to never hurt our Lord again.
Your doctrine relegates men to unending service to sin instead of to God.
Your doctrine credits more power to the devil than to God.
Your doctrine binds us to sin and deny's us freedom from sin.

What you can't seem to let sink into your skull is the reality that believers still have their flesh to contend with, and the issue of sin is not a "one and done deal", as you imagine.
Your religion denies the facts of Romans 6:3-6, which describes the death of the old man.
And its results..."For he that is dead is freed from sin."
And it ignores or denies the facts of 2 Cor 5:17, which says the "old things are passed away, behold ALL things are made new".
Your religion keeps some of the old, blaming it for the lack of subjection to God.
Continuing sin doesn't fit in the life of the repentant.
Your version of believers is false.
 
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FreeGrace2

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Your version of believers is false.
You have ignored many of my points, and you've never bothered to address any of the verses I have shared.

It is your version of believers that is unbiblical. Totally.

You have made clear your view that believers cannot sin, since their sin nature has been killed. Yet, I've proven the opposite in many verses, none of which you will address.

All you have is your opinions and fantasy, which seem to have gotten away with you.
 
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Phil W

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You have ignored many of my points, and you've never bothered to address any of the verses I have shared.
It is your version of believers that is unbiblical. Totally.
It is written..."We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not." (1 John 5:18)
Your POV seems to include those not begotten of God as "believers".
Is that correct?

You have made clear your view that believers cannot sin, since their sin nature has been killed. Yet, I've proven the opposite in many verses, none of which you will address.
You've proved nothing.
 
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JLB777

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You have ignored many of my points, and you've never bothered to address any of the verses I have shared.

It is your version of believers that is unbiblical. Totally.

You have made clear your view that believers cannot sin, since their sin nature has been killed. Yet, I've proven the opposite in many verses, none of which you will address.

All you have is your opinions and fantasy, which seem to have gotten away with you.


Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:15


Does a brother who hates his brother in Christ still have eternal life?


Yes or No?





JLB
 
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FreeGrace2

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It is written..."We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not." (1 John 5:18)
Your POV seems to include those not begotten of God as "believers".
Is that correct?
No. Rather, quite incorrect. That means "wrong". Or, "in error".

When we come across the words about "sinning not", we also always find the words about being "born of God", or "God's seed". This proves that it is ONLY our born again nature doesn't sin. But you continue to deny the FACT that the believer retains his "flesh", which is where sin comes from. Which I've proven from Scripture, but you won't address.

You've proved nothing.
I have. And you've also proved something. That you aren't interested in what Scripture says.

Congratulations.
 
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FreeGrace2

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Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:15
Does a brother who hates his brother in Christ still have eternal life?
Yes or No?JLB
Jesus said that those He gives eternal life shall never perish in John 10:28.

The real and only issue here is your complete failure to grasp anything about the concept of fellowship with the Lord.

If John had left the word "abiding" out of the verse, you'd have a point. But he added that word which destroys your faulty opinion about losing eternal life.

If eternal life could be lost, he wouldn't have needed to insert "abiding". He would have just said "no murder has eternal life in him". Simple as that.

So, OGEL,SNP is the truth of Scripture.

Once given eternal life, shall never perish. So said Jesus.

JLB says the exact opposite of what Jesus said.

You've got some serious spiritual issues that need sorting out; the way you are so vigorous in your attack on the words of Jesus.

But you're making the devil quite happy, no doubt.
 
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Phil W

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No. Rather, quite incorrect. That means "wrong". Or, "in error".
What is "that"?

When we come across the words about "sinning not", we also always find the words about being "born of God", or "God's seed". This proves that it is ONLY our born again nature doesn't sin. But you continue to deny the FACT that the believer retains his "flesh", which is where sin comes from. Which I've proven from Scripture, but you won't address.
As long as you depend on errant doctrine to include sin in your life you will keep defending both doctrine and sin.
 
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JLB777

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Jesus said that those He gives eternal life shall never perish in John 10:28.

The real and only issue here is your complete failure to grasp anything about the concept of fellowship with the Lord.

If John had left the word "abiding" out of the verse, you'd have a point. But he added that word which destroys your faulty opinion about losing eternal life.

If eternal life could be lost, he wouldn't have needed to insert "abiding". He would have just said "no murder has eternal life in him". Simple as that.

So, OGEL,SNP is the truth of Scripture.

Once given eternal life, shall never perish. So said Jesus.

JLB says the exact opposite of what Jesus said.

You've got some serious spiritual issues that need sorting out; the way you are so vigorous in your attack on the words of Jesus.

But you're making the devil quite happy, no doubt.


Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:15


Does a brother who hates his brother in Christ still have eternal life?


Yes or No?





JLB
 
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FreeGrace2

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I quoted from your post:
"Phil W said:
It is written..."We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not." (1 John 5:18)
Your POV seems to include those not begotten of God as "believers".
Is that correct?"
What is "that"?
This was my response to your post:
"No. Rather, quite incorrect. That means "wrong". Or, "in error". "
You asked if your view of my POV was "correct". When I responded with "quite incorrect", I further expanded by saying "wrong" and "in error".

All in reference to your opinion of my POV.

As long as you depend on errant doctrine to include sin in your life you will keep defending both doctrine and sin.
That's only your pathetic opinion. I've never defended sin and you know it. So knock it off.

When you say that, you are WRONG. And since I've repeatedly denied your errant claim, you are now LYING, which you seem rather good at. I'm not the only one who has charged you with LYING.

Here are some more verses about sin that sink your sinful ship.

Heb 12:4 - In your struggle against sin, you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood. Written to God's children.

Heb 13:16 - And do not forget to do good and to share with others, for with such sacrifices God is pleased.

Since you claim that believers are NOT sinners, why would the author tell these supposedly sinless believers to "not forget to do good"?? If one isn't sinning, then they ARE already doing good. They can't do otherwise.

Heb 13:17 - Have confidence in your leaders and submit to their authority, because they keep watch over you as those who must give an account. Do this so that their work will be a joy, not a burden, for that would be of no benefit to you.

Why would the Bible tell God's children to submit to leaders and those in authority, since you claim God's children can't sin??

James 3:2 - We all stumble in many ways. Anyone who is never at fault in what they say is perfect, able to keep their whole body in check.

I suppose your defense will be that "stumbling" isn't actual sin. And then you'll focus on the word "perfect", which really means mature or complete. Not sinless, as you opine.
 
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Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:15

Does a brother who hates his brother in Christ still have eternal life?

Yes or No?
JLB
It seems you don't read the posts of those you question. I already answered that question, but obviously don't like what the Word of God says about your question.

Those given eternal life by Jesus SHALL NEVER PERISH.

If you can't figure out that the capitalized words mean that once given eternal life, the recipient will continue to have it through eternity, then there's just no hope for you to ever understand the Bible.

I feel sorry for you.
 
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JLB777

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It seems you don't read the posts of those you question. I already answered that question, but obviously don't like what the Word of God says about your question.

Those given eternal life by Jesus SHALL NEVER PERISH.

If you can't figure out that the capitalized words mean that once given eternal life, the recipient will continue to have it through eternity, then there's just no hope for you to ever understand the Bible.

I feel sorry for you.


You keep trying to change the subject and refer to other scriptures which do not pertain to my question nor the scripture I quoted.

In addition your fallacy of trying to demean and degrade me, only proves to all, you have no answer to a simple question.


Try again to answer a simple question that completely destroys your whole entire false theology.


Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:15


Does a brother who hates his brother in Christ still have eternal life?


Yes or No?


I can answer it.

It’s simple, because the truth of the scripture itself contains the answer.


The answer is no, a brother who hates his brother no longer has eternal life remaining in him, because he is a murderer.

  • you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him










JLB
 
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FreeGrace2

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You keep trying to change the subject and refer to other scriptures which do not pertain to my question nor the scripture I quoted.
Your opinion is wrong. John 10:28 pertains directly to your silly question. But you just don't like that fact.

In addition your fallacy of trying to demean and degrade me, only proves to all, you have no answer to a simple question.
Well, I did answer it. By using Scripture that you have blatantly rejected.

The answer is a simple YES. Most peope would have understood that from my posts.

Once given eternal life, that recipient shall never perish. So said Jesus.

You claim quite differently. That recipients of eternal life CAN perish.

I don't believe your false doctrine. I do believe what Jesus said.

Now, I've given you a direct answer to your question.

Now it's your turn to give me a direct answer to my question.

Can a recipient of eternal life EVER perish? yes or no
 
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JLB777

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The answer is a simple YES.

Sorry, wrong answer.


The Bible is clear -

Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:15


Christians who hate their brother, do not have eternal life remaining in them.


You are teaching FALSE DOCTRINE!


Those who do not keep His commandments are walking in hate toward God and their neighbor.


He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 2:4




JLB
 
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Sorry, wrong answer.
No, the answer you think is what is sorry.

And how 'bout that! I answered your question, but you have, once again, FAILED to bother to answer mine. Why are you such a hypocrite?

This is what I posted:

"Well, I did answer it. By using Scripture that you have blatantly rejected.

The answer is a simple YES. Most peope would have understood that from my posts.

Once given eternal life, that recipient shall never perish. So said Jesus.

You claim quite differently. That recipients of eternal life CAN perish.

I don't believe your false doctrine. I do believe what Jesus said.

Now, I've given you a direct answer to your question.

Now it's your turn to give me a direct answer to my question.

Can a recipient of eternal life EVER perish? yes or no"

Why are you so afraid to give a simple answer to my question?

I certainly am not afraid to any ANY of your questions.

But don't worry. If you continue to FAIL to answer this very straightforward question, it will be very obvious to all what your answer is. And the fact that you just don't want to answer it because it reveals your rejection of what Jesus said.
 
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