Good Day, Free
I noticed the format of my post was really bad... did not use QUOTE tag effectively.
OK.
1. You used Romans 1 to support your idea that the Everyone in Jn 6:45 means every single person.
You need to prove the opposite from Rom 1:19-20. I sincerely wish you luck.
2. You even supposed that inability is not taught in Jn 6:45.
OK, 2 point:
1. prove that refusal to an action includes an inability to that action.
2. I never supposed anything about Jn 6:45. Why would Jesus quote the OT about "all will be taught by God" if He didn't really mean that?
The point of 6:45 is that God has taught all (everyone). But go ahead, and prove that to be incorrect, if you can.
The point of Rom 1:19-20 is that because God HAS revealed Himself and His attributes, no one has any excuse for not recognizing that and being thankful to Him.
3.Then you derive from 6:45 something that no one in my knowledge who hold to the doctrines of Grace ever said, it is based on your own subjective fourm activity.
I certainly hold to the doctrine of God's grace. We are saved by grace. Salvation is a gift. We have the gift of the Holy Spirit. That is grace.
You can call it whatever you want. But I've engaged with Calvinists for well over a decade and my experiences with them have formed my view of them.
6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets, 'And they will all be taught by God.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me 46 not that anyone has seen the Father except he who is from God; he has seen the Father.
Yup dodge the fallacy... pure nonsense.
What's your point by quoting these 3 verses? v.45 is a clear statement about who God has taught. And it is "ALL". No other descriptive added. So, therefore, "all" means exactly that; all people. If the "all" were only of a segment of humanity, then Jesus would have said so.
But the real problem you're having is that not everyone who is being taught are listening and learning. Again I ask you: have you every been in a classroom? Did all the students in that classroom listen and learn from the teacher?
The answer is quite obvious.
Should have read second to none.. he is the absolute best NT Greek scholar in the world.
I know what you meant. Just having a bit of fun with your typo. However, a biased person is a biased person, even geniuses and Calvinists and Arminians.
The they restricts the everyone the they are the collection of him(s) that the father draws. You seem to be enamored with this classroom depiction for some unknown reason.
Wow. You sure shredded that passage! Jesus' point in v.45 is that the Father teaches everyone. And then He makes the specific point that it's ONLY the ones who have listened and learned from the Father will come to Jesus.
So let’s deal with that God is a very effective teacher if it is his attention to Draw by teaching for the explicit purpose of Christ raising up he cannot fail, that is what makes him God.
I am not buying your shredding of the passage that way.
The "they" in v.45 is in Isa 54:13 - All your children will be taught by the LORD, and great will be their peace.
Check out the context for v.13.
7 “For a brief moment I abandoned you, but with deep compassion I will bring you back.
8 In a surge of anger I hid my face from you for a moment, but with everlasting kindness I will have compassion on you,” says the LORD your Redeemer.
9 “To me this is like the days of Noah, when I swore that the waters of Noah would never again cover the earth. So now I have sworn not to be angry with you, never to rebuke you again.
10 Though the mountains be shaken and the hills be removed, yet my unfailing love for you will not be shaken nor my covenant of peace be removed,” says the LORD, who has compassion on you.
11 “Afflicted city, lashed by storms and not comforted, I will rebuild you with stones of turquoise,your foundations with lapis lazuli.
12 I will make your battlements of rubies, your gates of sparkling jewels, and all your walls of precious stones.
Jesus' point was that God the Father will teach all. And those who L & L will come to Jesus.
Please don't try to argue that everyone under a teacher listens and learns. That would be extremely absurd and irrational.
Romans is dealing with General revelation he has made Himself know though the observation of creation
Right. Until a person is aware of God, he cannot be led to Christ. Rom 1:19-20 is the proof of the FACT that God has taught everyone in the human race, and that no one has an excuse for NOT LISTENING AND LEARNING by being thankful to Him.
I refer you to Heb 11:6 - And without faith it is impossible to please God, because
anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.
If this doesn't convince you, I suppose nothing will.
For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them not taught it to them.
What do you think a teacher is doing in a classroom if not showing facts, etc to their students???
... That is not teaching, for the explicit purpose of raising up Jn 6:45,
It is clear to me that you are not very familiar with what teaching is.
But rather explaining how the wrath is revealed by showing ( Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse)
Again, how are teachers able to teach if not by
EXPLAINING to the students?
YLT (Youngs literal translation)- no one is able to come unto me, if the Father who sent me may not draw him, and I will raise him up in the last day;
Not able= inability plain and simple.
Those who did NOT L & L do not come to Christ. Plain and simple.
You ask does God choose who will believe and try to somehow say it has any thing to do with Jn 6:45.
When clearly it does not no matter what your 20 yrs has shown you.
OK, the opinions of 20 years of dealing with Calvinists don't matter. Good to know.
What is clear to me is that you can't even figure out WHY John 6:45 IS related directly to the fact that God does NOT choose who will believe.
btw, do you yourself believe that God chooses who will believe? iow, that it is God alone who chooses to save, via regeneration so that they can and will believe?
John 6:45 teaches that man is not able to come to Christ unless (God the father external to them does something) to overcome their inability. Namely draw them for the explicit purpose for Christ to raise them up.
Nope. There is nothing about inability here.
And the Bible says that men REFUSE to believe several times in Acts and REFUSE to repent several times in Revelation.
Again, you need to prove that a refusal to perform can include an inability to perform.
He does this by teaching them and he is an effective teacher those he teaches learn and hear from the father...
That's NOT what 6:45 says. You are paraphrasing, and doing a very poor job of it.
It does NOT say everyone He teaches listened and learned. That is wrong.
those that he does not teach do not her and learn.
Again, ALL the students are in the classroom, but NOT ALL the students listen and learn.
But you don't want to admit that. Even though EVERYONE who has ever been through school knows the TRUTH of what I have said.
Teaching is the main verb, while hearing and learning are dependent upon being taught by the teacher.
True. But doesn't change the fact that I've pointed out.
If the teacher does not teach there is nothing to hear or learn.
Irrelevant to what Jesus said.
Question.. Can God fail to effectively teach his creation?
Oh, you really do miss the point It's not God's fault (ineffective teaching) that some students didn't listen and learn. That is ALL on them. It's their choice.
That's WHY Paul added the idea that even though God has revealed Himself to everyone, everyone has NO EXCUSE for not recognizing Him and being thankful.
Do you agree the direct effect of the drawing is the raising up by Christ?
Sure do. John 12:32 speaks to that. But people have to L & L before they are drawn.