GQ’s New Masculinity

LaBèlla said:

Welcome to GQ's New Masculinity issue, an exploration of the ways that traditional notions of masculinity are being challenged, overturned, and evolved.

Feature article with Pharrell on Evolving Masculinity and Spiritual Warfare

There were gender-fluid elements to the way you dressed long before it became a national conversation.

It started with the “I can pull that off” thing. I wore a lot of Chanel, and I wore tons of Céline. Like, I got all the O.G. Céline. Because they were clothes I could fit in. When you listen to yourself and you're comfortable in who you are, you wear what you feel like fits and looks right on you. And that's it.

Question: What are your thoughts on “new masculinity?” Is it a fad or something deeper?

~Bella

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Hi Bella,

As I was loitering around on Youtube, I came across the following music vid by Toby Mac entitled, Everything. I thought I'd perhaps offer it up as a more "Christian" alternative to Pharrell's song "Happy,' maybe as another form of the Diversity Clique Masculinity which Pharrell seems to espouse in the article you've provided us. So, without further adieu, here it is for our further consideration on the melding of Diversity themes and Spiritual Life, such they are:


Peace!

bekkilyn said:

I made no mention of liking shoes, shopping, loud bodily noises, or team sports, so how am I proving your point again?

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I made no mention of any of those either so why do you keep bringing them up like they mean something?

renniks said:

I made no mention of any of those either so why do you keep bringing them up like they mean something?

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Because it's part of one of many unanswerable questions I asked a while back that were ignored amidst all the deflection.

bekkilyn said:

I made no mention of liking shoes, shopping, loud bodily noises, or team sports, so how am I proving your point again?

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Ok, let me rephrase: What do any of these things have to do with the fact that God created males to be males and females to be females?
I said you proved my point, because you are doing what women do in an argument, bring up something totally unrelated just when the man gets going, so he's left standing there with a puzzled look on his face like "What the? I thought this was about me not putting the seat down, and you're off on a tangent about something I did ten years ago." At that point, we just walk away, knowing it's hopeless, lol.

renniks said:

Ok, let me rephrase: What do any of these things have to do with the fact that God created males to be males and females to be females?
I said you proved my point, because you are doing what women do in an argument, bring up something totally unrelated just when the man gets going, so he's left standing there with a puzzled look on his face like "What the? I thought this was about me not putting the seat down, and you're off on a tangent about something I did ten years ago." At that point, we just walk away, knowing it's hopeless, lol.

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You have yet to describe what makes a male a male or a female a female outside of the biology used for reproduction. While you might be standing around puzzled concerning other people due to basing your views on false stereotypes that are easily shattered with minor analysis, I (and others both male and female) are not having those problems at all, but I am eagerly awaiting a comprehensive list of qualities that males exclusively possess vs. qualities that females exclusively possess to "prove" that men and women are wired differently and are basically two different species.

bekkilyn said:

You have yet to describe what makes a male a male or a female a female outside of the biology used for reproduction. While you might be standing around puzzled concerning other people due to basing your views on false stereotypes that are easily shattered with minor analysis, I (and others both male and female) are not having those problems at all, but I am eagerly awaiting a comprehensive list of qualities that males exclusively possess vs. qualities that females exclusively possess to "prove" that men and women are wired differently and are basically two different species.

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You don't believe that trans people actually feel like the opposite gender then?

Nithavela said:

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He looks kinda like that guy from that rock band in the 70s that then had that reality tv show. The one who stuck his pointy tongue out a lot. He had a male name that sounded female. Tired but I'll think of his name in a minute.

Go Braves said:

He looks kinda like that guy from that rock band in the 70s that then had that reality tv show. The one who stuck his pointy tongue out a lot. He had a male name that sounded female. Tired but I'll think of his name in a minute.

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Well, he definetely was a popstar of his time...

public hermit said:

I would be curious to hear the case for that right degree of blending. I grew up with fairly traditional ideas of masculinity: strong, hard-working, steady, capable, and such. To this day, I try to embody the ideas of masculinity I grew up with. Nonetheless, in terms of character traits, when I try to determine the differences between masculinity and femininity I come up short. Meaning, the same characteristics I consider masculine seem wholly appropriate and desirable for women. I certainly wouldn't want to hitch my wagon with a woman who was weak, lazy, unpredictable, incapable, and so on. Is the difference between masculinity and femininity only physical/biological? Or, is it how those characteristics are expressed, perhaps? I truly haven't been able to put my finger on it. Maybe I'm looking too closely. Would you mind saying more?

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Well, I don't know either. Masculine heros in old literature are more complex than many of our modern heros, Odysseus was characterised by his ability with words and his wily negotiating skills as much as by his skills as a warrior, Beowulf by his 'word hoard' and cleverness in misleading when useful as by his strength and fighting ability. The maybe a bit ridiculous knights of chivalric literature were big on sighing and poetic gestures. A lot of modern hero figures are more superficial, basic tough guys with guns and skills, short on words. The two sides, the physical abilities and the mental abilities seem to have been divided out, so you have parodic extremes of both, rather than a blend of the two in one, which would seem better. Maybe one reason why the US has ended up with someone like Trump in charge, someone who can play a theatrical version of the tough guy convincingly enough that people can ignore all of the rotteness on the inside.
I don't think there's anything wrong with the traditional ideas you mention, personally. I do think there are some fundamental differences between men and women but I can't really put it in words either, for every example there's an exception. I'm glad there is a difference though.

Go Braves said:

He looks kinda like that guy from that rock band in the 70s that then had that reality tv show. The one who stuck his pointy tongue out a lot. He had a male name that sounded female. Tired but I'll think of his name in a minute.

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Gene Simmons?

bekkilyn said:

to wearable sleeping bags.

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Been in fashion at EBC for a while now.

bekkilyn said:

You have yet to describe what makes a male a male or a female a female outside of the biology used for reproduction. While you might be standing around puzzled concerning other people due to basing your views on false stereotypes that are easily shattered with minor analysis, I (and others both male and female) are not having those problems at all, but I am eagerly awaiting a comprehensive list of qualities that males exclusively possess vs. qualities that females exclusively possess to "prove" that men and women are wired differently and are basically two different species.

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Why do stereotypes become stereotypes? Because they are repeated in peoples lives over and over. Why can comedians get a laugh by telling stories about how husbands and wives are different? Because we see ourselves in the stories. Just because I don't like football and my wife doesn't like shopping don't make the basic differences in the way we behave and see the world any less true. Sure, any feature that I pick out, like women wanting to be appreciated for their beauty for example, you are going to scoff at and find some woman who you think is the exception. But it's still true, especially for the ones who claim it doesn't apply to them. The guy who scoffs at wanting to be seen as strong, only does so because he knows he isn't. We are broken beings, so that s part of it, but it's amusing how much we fight against being who we are meant to be.

Ana the Ist said:

You don't believe that trans people actually feel like the opposite gender then?

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I believe they *feel* it, but since no one has yet to determine exactly what a "gender" is, what is it that they "feel" that exactly makes them into a woman or a man? While I'm willing to treat them however they wish to be treated and am respectful of their wishes in that matter, even they have not been able to inform me what a "gender" is or what "feeling like a woman" or "feeling like a man" is.

renniks said:

Why do stereotypes become stereotypes? Because they are repeated in peoples lives over and over. Why can comedians get a laugh by telling stories about how husbands and wives are different? Because we see ourselves in the stories. Just because I don't like football and my wife doesn't like shopping don't make the basic differences in the way we behave and see the world any less true. Sure, any feature that I pick out, like women wanting to be appreciated for their beauty for example, you are going to scoff at and find some woman who you think is the exception. But it's still true, especially for the ones who claim it doesn't apply to them. The guy who scoffs at wanting to be seen as strong, only does so because he knows he isn't. We are broken beings, so that s part of it, but it's amusing how much we fight against being who we are meant to be.

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Stereotypes are based on cultural conditioning and not on biology. Go into some other culture besides your own and many of their stereotypes will be different and no less harmful. If your claim is that men and women are biologically wired differently, and that biology is what determines their maleness or femaleness in regards to those stereotypes, then exceptions would not apply unless a person was born as a hermaphrodite.

Tom Farebrother said:

Been in fashion at EBC for a while now.

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What's EBC?

bekkilyn said:

What's EBC?

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Sorry Everest Base Camp

public hermit said:

I would be curious to hear the case for that right degree of blending. I grew up with fairly traditional ideas of masculinity: strong, hard-working, steady, capable, and such. To this day, I try to embody the ideas of masculinity I grew up with. Nonetheless, in terms of character traits, when I try to determine the differences between masculinity and femininity I come up short. Meaning, the same characteristics I consider masculine seem wholly appropriate and desirable for women. I certainly wouldn't want to hitch my wagon with a woman who was weak, lazy, unpredictable, incapable, and so on. Is the difference between masculinity and femininity only physical/biological? Or, is it how those characteristics are expressed, perhaps? I truly haven't been able to put my finger on it. Maybe I'm looking too closely. Would you mind saying more?

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The nearest I can get to a definition of difference is in the ways of seeing things men and women have, generalising. It seems to me that women have a kind of innate wisdom, intuition you might call it, and men have more of a kind of physical cleverness. That has some relation to how we see things.

Tom Farebrother said:

The nearest I can get to a definition of difference is in the ways of seeing things men and women have, generalising. It seems to me that women have a kind of innate wisdom, intuition you might call it, and men have more of a kind of physical cleverness. That has some relation to how we see things.

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That's helpful to me. I believe there is difference, I'm just at pains sometimes to carve the difference at the joint. But, maybe that is not possible. Maybe generalizing over the differences is the best we can do. I have a tendency to analyze things too closely, which is not always the most helpful approach.

public hermit said:

That's helpful to me. I believe there is difference, I'm just at pains sometimes to carve the difference at the joint. But, maybe that is not possible. Maybe generalizing over the differences is the best we can do. I have a tendency to analyze things too closely, which is not always the most helpful approach.

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I believe it's very important to analyze these things closely because it's the generalizing that has been used to exclude and do harm to various people, whether based on gender, race, or some other demographic, for centuries. If all we have is guesswork, and then we use that guesswork as 'fact' as has been often done, then we aren't really showing that there are measurable differences outside of physical reproductive purposes.

Tom Farebrother said:

The nearest I can get to a definition of difference is in the ways of seeing things men and women have, generalising. It seems to me that women have a kind of innate wisdom, intuition you might call it, and men have more of a kind of physical cleverness. That has some relation to how we see things.

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However, there are such large numbers of men who are intuitive and large numbers of women who are intellectually clever that it makes such generalizations useless and is thus based on how someone "feels" about it rather than what is actually true. While I would agree that there are people who are more intuitive and others who are more clever, it doesn't neatly fall into the concept of males on one side and females on the other side. It's messy, and that messiness is a very good indication that there is something wrong with the hypothesis once we remove ALL social conditioning.

bekkilyn said:

intellectually clever

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Physical cleverness, not intellectual. Sure the terms aren't a perfect fit but social conditioning doesn't cover it either, and can't as it isn't possible to go back far enough, and anything recent that can be studied is more about the particular manifestation of a thing rather than why it is there in the first place and what its actual nature is. Removing social conditioning is a bit of an oxymoron, you can replace one kind with another but you can't 'remove' it.