Critique of Cruelty in the Bible

essentialsaltes

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This is a little like saying that Picasso shouldn't have painted Guernica but instead should have just scrawled "war is bad" on a wall somewhere.

Comparing art and text is not a good analogy.

It's more like saying that stop signs should be clear and easy to read, rather than an exercise in Cubism.
 
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Redac

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Comparing art and text is not a good analogy.

It's more like saying that stop signs should be clear and easy to read, rather than an exercise in Cubism.
The Book of Job is poetic in nature, so the analogy is entirely apt.
 
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Robban

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How about just having the moral lessons clearly stated instead of imbedding them into confusing stories? Give people less junk to argue about.


Telling stories is effective.

The Prophet Nathan came to David and told him a story,

it impacted him at once,

How would it have turned out if David had said "I don,t want to hear "junk"?
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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I was researching info on the bible and found an article talking about many criticisms of the bible. One of the portions that hit me rather hard read the following:

"Cruelty in Basic Christian Teachings

Instances of cruel and unjust behavior by the biblical God are seen in the most basic Christian doctrines. Some of God’s acts that harmed the innocent are as follows.
To start with, there is no "Cruelty" in Yahuweh's TORAH Teachings. None. None at all.

Also, there is not one iota , not one particle , of "cruel" NOR "unjust" behavior by nor from Yahuweh Sovereign Creator.

THERE MAY BE some wrong things in any so-called "Christian" doctrines made up by men - that is man's doing, not Yahuweh's , and is not in line nor in harmony with Yahuweh and Yahushua (Jesus).

"harmed the innocent" is a relative thing. Yahuweh's Justice is Eternal, and when men hurt innocent people, they are judged by Yahuweh and subject to His Judgment ...
Justice for the innocent may be in the life to come, not on this earth, as often happens daily (injustice on earth is very common and accepted by men everywhere, though not practiced by faithful Ekklesia)
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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How about just having the moral lessons clearly stated instead of imbedding them into confusing stories? Give people less junk to argue about.
Good.
The Heavenly Father Be Praised Forever, as Jesus Worships Him in the NT, Declaring " Praise you Heavenly Father
FOR REVEALING SALVATION and everything concerning SALVATION to little children,
and for hiding salvation from the educated ones,
for thus it is Your Good Pleasure! "

and as Jesus Says "To enter Heaven (or even to see Heaven), you must be becoming little children" ...

Thus learning by revelation from the Father all that is needed for healing (salvation).
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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This is a little like saying that Picasso shouldn't have painted Guernica but instead should have just scrawled "war is bad" on a wall somewhere.
Actually, I agree with that - just scrawling "war is bad" could actually be much much better, in God's View, Scripturally.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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If you view the Bible as a piece of artwork, sure. If you view it as a moral guide, no.

...if the writers of the New Testament have stated in brief lists things like don't cheat, don't steal, don't hate, don't fornicate or commit adultery, then I'm not sure what more is needed. Are we human beings really THAT stupid?

Uh, nope. Don't answer that! ^_^
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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If you view the Bible as a piece of artwork, sure. If you view it as a moral guide, no.
It is neither art work , nor a moral guide.

It is Yahuweh's Word. Eternal, "the Judge" on Judgment Day, Unchanging, Perfect.
 
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Emmylouwho

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...if the writers of the New Testament have stated in brief list things like don't cheat, don't steal, don't hate, don't fornicate or commit adultery, then I'm not sure what more is needed. Are we human beings really THAT stupid?

Uh, nope. Don't answer that! ^_^
Maybe 2000 years ago, it was the fas
Telling stories is effective.

The Prophet Nathan came to David and told him a story,

it impacted him at once,

How would it have turned out if David had said "I don,t want to hear "junk"?
Who can say?
 
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Emmylouwho

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One imagines that authors of religious texts gave no thought to whether their works would be considered sacred.
Can you imagine? 2000 years from now, everyone reading your mail and calling it gospel !
 
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AvisG

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Hello everyone!

I was researching info on the bible and found an article talking about many criticisms of the bible. One of the portions that hit me rather hard read the following:

"Cruelty in Basic Christian Teachings

Instances of cruel and unjust behavior by the biblical God are seen in the most basic Christian doctrines. Some of God’s acts that harmed the innocent are as follows.

In both my inner dialogues and my attempts to defend my beliefs to others, I’ve resorted to all the standard rationalizations:
  • God’s ways are not our ways. What appears to us as vicious cruelty or gross injustice might appear quite different from God’s eternal perspective.
  • Humans are so depraved, and God is so holy, that whatever God does with us, up to including annihilation and even eternal torment, is deserved and just.
  • We live in a fallen creation. The incredible cruelty in the animal kingdom is the result of the fall.
  • Jesus accepted the OT, so we have no right to question it.
  • The pot has no right to question the Potter, period.
  • Those troubling OT passages aren’t really saying what they appear – pretty clearly – to be saying.
  • God had to deal with primitive people in what might appear to us primitive ways in order to get His message across.
  • Yada yada yada.
I’ve read all the books, heard all the arguments. No, believe me – I have. I've been a Christian almost 50 years, been part of Campus Crusade in my formative years, attended a Baptist seminary and Baptist churches, immersed myself in theology and apologetics until I was cross-eyed.

I finally had to admit, “I just don’t believe some of this stuff.”

OK, I and everyone I know falls far short of holiness – but are we depraved, deserving of the sorts of stuff described in the OT? Eternal torment, even? Nah.

Would an omnibenevolent Creator act in the manner described in the OT, or even allow such an unflattering and troubling portrait to exist? Nah.

Can the vast evil in the world really be explained in a convincing manner by any of the standard rationalizations? Nah.

What I believe explains much of the OT is a small, vulnerable tribe called the Jews trying to magnify their importance and make sense of their history through the exploits of their tribal God. The OT contains many worthwhile spiritual insights and truths, but I no longer feel compelled to insist it is the Word of God in any literal sense, anything like an accurate historical account before the time of David (or later), or a scientific treatise in any sense whatsoever.

This is quite liberating. I no longer have to pretend to believe things that I know in my heart of hearts aren’t true. I no longer live in a state of cognitive dissonance.

Christianity stands or falls with the Resurrection. It doesn’t stand or fall with the OT.

I’m perfectly candid with God about this. When I pray, I explain exactly what troubles me and why. I explain that it would do a disservice to Him, and to me, to pretend to believe things I simply don’t believe or can't reconcile with God as Christians conceive Him to be. I wouldn’t be fooling Him anyway. I explain that I have no choice but to accept grim reality as it is and that, if the standard rationalizations are correct, I will have no choice but to accept that this is who God is – but I’m not going to pretend to believe it just because it’s in some 3,000-year-old book or I'm told that this is what "real Christians" believe.

This is, of course, heresy of sorts. Christianity has become sort of like the Marines: Just shut up and do what the drill sergeant says, even if you know it’s silly or wrong. Just pretend. Don’t be that rude kid in “The Emperor’s New Clothes.”

Am I questioning the Potter? Yeah, I guess. I don’t think I’m a pot. I think God blessed me with an excellent brain, a conscience, free will, and a fairly good sense of discernment and judgment. I think He expects me to use them. I think He expects obedience but not slavish, irrational obedience.

The God in whom we believe is, we believe, omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, perfectly holy and perfectly just. I, at least, am simply not willing to keep reading OT (or even NT) passages that are completely at odds with this and trying to invent plausible excuses for God or chalking it all up to “unfathomable mystery.” I see no great virtue in this.

Even at the level of someone like William Lane Craig, the nonsense becomes more than I can tolerate. “Maybe all those Muslims, Hindus and Buddhists in other countries who have essentially no chance of ever coming to Christ were born there in God’s perfect wisdom and foreknowledge because He knew they wouldn’t become Christians anyway.” Oh, shut up – please.

Not only has this approach been liberating, but my Christianity is now far simpler and, I am convinced, much closer to what Jesus was actually talking about.

I must add, I have not become one of those New Age quasi-Christians who cherry picks the Bible verses he likes, mixes them in with a bit of Ramtha, and reinvents Jesus as some feel-good “I’m OK, You’re OK” guru of cosmic benign tolerance. My Christianity is actually quite conservative. I’m simply not willing to live any longer in a state of cognitive dissonance and "pretend belief” when biblical passages are impossible to reconcile with the God in whom I actually do believe.

Take it for what it’s worth. Your mileage may vary.
 
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Robban

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Maybe 2000 years ago, it was the fas

Who can say?

There details surrounding the episode of David and Bat-Sheba but will not share them, they will be regarded as junk.

David was in such a position to have the Prophet Natan
executed for treason, if the Prophet had approached him like an elephant in a porcalin store.

Therefore he approached the way he did and David was outraged at hearing the story so he demanded that the one guilty should pay dearly for the illdeed,

But when the Prophet told him it was he, David who was the man, it must have hit him like a ton of bricks.

Note the difference between approach of in this case the Prophet Natan and for example the Prophet Jonah
 
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Emmylouwho

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There details surrounding the episode of David and Bat-Sheba but will not share them, they will be regarded as junk.

David was in such a position to have the Prophet Natan
executed for treason, if the Prophet had approached him like an elephant in a porcalin store.

Therefore he approached the way he did and David was outraged at hearing the story so he demanded that the one guilty should pay dearly for the illdeed,

But when the Prophet told him it was he, David who was the man, it must have hit him like a ton of bricks.

Note the difference between approach of in this case the Prophet Natan and for example the Prophet Jonah
I don’t know these people so why I should care what happened to them 3000 years ago, any more than I care what happened to Prophet Natan’s brother-in-law?
 
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Robban

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That one's easy. He had no intention of killing the kid. He was wise enough to know what would happen.

Yeah, he had no intention of killing the child,

but that is not what it is about.

Who of the two women was the mother?

That is what the argument was about,

without knowing the outcome who would have decided?
 
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2PhiloVoid

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In both my inner dialogues and my attempts to defend my beliefs to others, I’ve resorted to all the standard rationalizations:
  • God’s ways are not our ways. What appears to us as vicious cruelty or gross injustice might appear quite different from God’s eternal perspective.
  • Humans are so depraved, and God is so holy, that whatever God does with us, up to including annihilation and even eternal torment, is deserved and just.
  • We live in a fallen creation. The incredible cruelty in the animal kingdom is the result of the fall.
  • Jesus accepted the OT, so we have no right to question it.
  • The pot has no right to question the Potter, period.
  • Those troubling OT passages aren’t really saying what they appear – pretty clearly – to be saying.
  • God had to deal with primitive people in what might appear to us primitive ways in order to get His message across.
  • Yada yada yada.
I’ve read all the books, heard all the arguments. No, believe me – I have. I've been a Christian almost 50 years, been part of Campus Crusade in my formative years, attended a Baptist seminary and Baptist churches, immersed myself in theology and apologetics until I was cross-eyed.

I finally had to admit, “I just don’t believe some of this stuff.”

OK, I and everyone I know falls far short of holiness – but are we depraved, deserving of the sorts of stuff described in the OT? Eternal torment, even? Nah.

Would an omnibenevolent Creator act in the manner described in the OT, or even allow such an unflattering and troubling portrait to exist? Nah.

Can the vast evil in the world really be explained in a convincing manner by any of the standard rationalizations? Nah.

What I believe explains much of the OT is a small, vulnerable tribe called the Jews trying to magnify their importance and make sense of their history through the exploits of their tribal God. The OT contains many worthwhile spiritual insights and truths, but I no longer feel compelled to insist it is the Word of God in any literal sense, anything like an accurate historical account before the time of David (or later), or a scientific treatise in any sense whatsoever.

This is quite liberating. I no longer have to pretend to believe things that I know in my heart of hearts aren’t true. I no longer live in a state of cognitive dissonance.

Christianity stands or falls with the Resurrection. It doesn’t stand or fall with the OT.

I’m perfectly candid with God about this. When I pray, I explain exactly what troubles me and why. I explain that it would do a disservice to Him, and to me, to pretend to believe things I simply don’t believe or can't reconcile with God as Christians conceive Him to be. I wouldn’t be fooling Him anyway. I explain that I have no choice but to accept grim reality as it is and that, if the standard rationalizations are correct, I will have no choice but to accept that this is who God is – but I’m not going to pretend to believe it just because it’s in some 3,000-year-old book or I'm told that this is what "real Christians" believe.

This is, of course, heresy of sorts. Christianity has become sort of like the Marines: Just shut up and do what the drill sergeant says, even if you know it’s silly or wrong. Just pretend. Don’t be that rude kid in “The Emperor’s New Clothes.”

Am I questioning the Potter? Yeah, I guess. I don’t think I’m a pot. I think God blessed me with an excellent brain, a conscience, free will, and a fairly good sense of discernment and judgment. I think He expects me to use them. I think He expects obedience but not slavish, irrational obedience.

The God in whom we believe is, we believe, omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, perfectly holy and perfectly just. I, at least, am simply not willing to keep reading OT (or even NT) passages that are completely at odds with this and trying to invent plausible excuses for God or chalking it all up to “unfathomable mystery.” I see no great virtue in this.

Even at the level of someone like William Lane Craig, the nonsense becomes more than I can tolerate. “Maybe all those Muslims, Hindus and Buddhists in other countries who have essentially no chance of ever coming to Christ were born there in God’s perfect wisdom and foreknowledge because He knew they wouldn’t become Christians anyway.” Oh, shut up – please.

Not only has this approach been liberating, but my Christianity is now far simpler and, I am convinced, much closer to what Jesus was actually talking about.

I must add, I have not become one of those New Age quasi-Christians who cherry picks the Bible verses he likes, mixes them in with a bit of Ramtha, and reinvents Jesus as some feel-good “I’m OK, You’re OK” guru of cosmic benign tolerance. My Christianity is actually quite conservative. I’m simply not willing to live any longer in a state of cognitive dissonance and "pretend belief” when biblical passages are impossible to reconcile with the God in whom I actually do believe.

Take it for what it’s worth. Your mileage may vary.

Alright. I guess if anything, now we know that you're not William Lane Craig! At the same time, I can't subscribe and sign on the dotted line with your "latest" conclusions. I kind of had a feeling that you were hedging in there somewhere, AvisG. Now I know. So, what are you now, and be honest as best you can in your current PhD-fication? A Unitarian? A Spong Follow-Along? What?

On my part, I'll admit that I'm one brick short of a Langdon Gilkey or a Paul Tillich, but at the same time, I'm not ready to Jettison the overall coherence of a fuller biblical engagement with the bible. And, not to sound narcisstic, I might be able to attempt to give you a run for your money at bat, even if I may have to draw upon the help of a few fellow Christians here to deal with your PhD-ism.

So, just let's just agree to disagree that the Bible, on the whole, is or is not some heinous "THING from Outerspace!" And we'll start from there. :cool: Just keep in mind that I don't mind that other's don't mind that I put philosophy before faith ... because for me, without philosophy, I probably wouldn't have faith in Jesus as Lord and Savior, and as the Son of God, the second Person of an eternal Trinity!
 
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Emmylouwho

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Alright. I guess if anything, now we know that you're not William Lane Craig! At the same time, I can't subscribe and sign on the dotted line with your "latest" conclusions. I kind of had a feeling that you were hedging in there somewhere, AvisG. Now I know. So, what are you now, and be honest as best you can in your current PhD-fication? A Unitarian? A Spong Follow-Along? What?

On my part, I'll admit that I'm one brick short of a Langdon Gilkey or a Paul Tillich, but at the same time, I'm not ready to Jettison the overall coherence of a fuller biblical engagement with the bible. And, not to sound narcisstic, I might be able to attempt to give you a run for your money at bat, even if I may have to draw upon the help of a few fellow Christians here to deal with your PhD-ism.

So, just let's just agree to disagree that the Bible, on the whole, is or is not some heinous "THING from Outerspace!" And we'll start from there. :cool: Just keep in mind that I don't mind that other's don't mind that I put philosophy before faith ... because for me, without philosophy, I probably wouldn't have faith in Jesus as Lord and Savior, and as the Son of God, the second Person of an eternal Trinity!
Is this some sort of insider “clique” stuff? Because I have no idea what you’re talking about.
 
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public hermit

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Christianity stands or falls with the Resurrection. It doesn’t stand or fall with the OT

That can't be said enough. And, since he is raised, he becomes the interpretive key to how we read the OT and the God we find in it. The perceived cruelty of God expressed in the OT is tempered by who we know in Jesus Christ. The scriptures are a means to Christ, and not an end in themselves. If we treat them as an end, they become an idol serving a master other than Christ.
 
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