Christianity and Computer Simulations?

JohnClay · Oct 17, 2019

About the possibility we are in a computer simulation:
Simulation hypothesis - Wikipedia

If I lived in the far future I think a person (or AI) could create a world which is based on the Christian God. One of the only problems is that the God entity couldn't have existed for an eternity or last for an eternity. It could involve trillions of years though.

Note that there are signs which show we might be in a simulation - particles can be in two states simultaneously then they collapse when "observed" (computer games mainly focus what is observed). Space and time is quantized - just what you'd expect if computers are involved. In a Newtonian world the accuracy of time and space could be infinite.
If there is no limit to how small space and time is, there is a paradox:
Zeno's paradoxes - Wikipedia

Note that to involve the whole world, the simulation doesn't need to handle every single particle - it would focus on the ones that are observed. It would also involve "level of detail" (where the detail of objects [like a star in the sky] is based on how close you are, etc).

It's likely that simulations will become far better than they are already, but consider this:
Microsoft Flight Simulator returns as a mind-blowing cloud showcase

That game runs on a single computer (linked to a server to get the world data) and lets you go anywhere in the world and even shows blades of grass if you get close enough.

In a Christian simulation, the world could be created using AI that can understand voice commands. Anything from the Bible could happen including resurrections, parting of the Red Sea, demon possession, people surviving fire, etc.

It could also simulate Heaven and Hell for trillions of years. If you had people suffering in Hell by themselves, the AI could work out a simulation of it that doesn't take much CPU power. And the trillions of years could be simulated in a short amount of time, such as a day. Well that's being optimistic - maybe you could only simulate a million of years of Hell in one day.

The God entity could also go backwards and forwards in time in the simulation...

Except that the God entity not existing for a literal eternity backward or forward in time, and it having a creator, I think Christianity is compatible with the simulation hypothesis.

Anguspure · Oct 17, 2019

YHWH is the ultimate technician.

cloudyday2 · Oct 17, 2019

JohnClay said:
The God entity could also go backwards and forwards in time in the simulation...

Except that the God entity not existing for a literal eternity backward or forward in time, and it having a creator, I think Christianity is compatible with the simulation hypothesis.

The software engineer has all those properties relative to the simulation. Time outside the simulation is orthogonal to time inside the simulation. The software engineer can play the simulation backwards and forwards and essentially transcends the simulation.

So as far as I can see, this world might be a simulation and God might be some very ordinary person in a transcendent world.

JohnClay · Oct 17, 2019

Based on this long critical video, there could be a person from the future who is put into a simulation to test his character. His memories were made temporarily inaccessible and he can do anything so that he genuinely believes he is God.

JohnClay · Oct 17, 2019

If an AI or enhanced uploaded consciousness was involved it could be aware of everything in the simulation virtually instantly (be omnipresent) - maybe

public hermit · Oct 17, 2019

The main problem with the AI futurist scenarios is the so-called "hard problem of consciousness." The idea that we are in a simulation faces a similar obstacle.

No matter how intelligent the computer, consciousness is still not a given. Consciousness is not simply the ability to reason or compute. It is awareness. David Chalmers, an Australian philosopher, brought the details of this problem to light. His work is worth a gander.

Not only is consciousness a problem for AI, but we have yet to understand our own human consciousness. And, it's looking like the "computer program" model of human cognition is not as fruitful in giving the answers we need, as was once thought.

The Singularity, Virtual Immortality and the Trouble with Consciousness (Op-Ed)

Episode 25: David Chalmers on Consciousness, the Hard Problem, and Living in a Simulation – Sean Carroll

JohnClay · Oct 18, 2019

@public hermit
About players within a simulation - humans have an "observer". I think an AI involving a neural network similar to a human would also have an observer - or if it doesn't then one could be grown from human DNA and grafted onto the AI. As far as non-player characters go, they could be conscious or be philosophical zombies. If they are conscious hopefully they don't suffer too much.

JohnClay · Jan 12, 2020

This shows the blades of grass mentioned in Flight Simulator 2020: (you can zoom into the image)

https://stormbirds.files.wordpress.com/2019/09/procedurally-generated_grass_normandie-1.jpeg

From the multi-billionaire Elon Musk:

"...the games will become indistinguishable from reality. ...there would probably be billions of such computers and set-top boxes. ...it would seem to follow that the odds that we're in base reality (NOT a simulation) is one in billions"

Nihilist Virus · Jan 13, 2020

public hermit said:
The main problem with the AI futurist scenarios is the so-called "hard problem of consciousness." The idea that we are in a simulation faces a similar obstacle.

No matter how intelligent the computer, consciousness is still not a given. Consciousness is not simply the ability to reason or compute. It is awareness. David Chalmers, an Australian philosopher, brought the details of this problem to light. His work is worth a gander.

Not only is consciousness a problem for AI, but we have yet to understand our own human consciousness. And, it's looking like the "computer program" model of human cognition is not as fruitful in giving the answers we need, as was once thought.

The Singularity, Virtual Immortality and the Trouble with Consciousness (Op-Ed)

Episode 25: David Chalmers on Consciousness, the Hard Problem, and Living in a Simulation – Sean Carroll

That hardly resolves the core issue of the problem.

Let's assume that artificial devices can never obtain genuine consciousness. It still follows that a spontaneous arrangement of a biological brain would obtain genuine consciousness. We then simply replace the simulation crisis with the Boltzmann Brain crisis. In the long run of the universe, the vast majority of all self-aware minds will be Boltzmann Brains, meaning that you are most likely a Boltzmann Brain that formed moments ago with memories of things that never happened.

Now, of course, the paradox here is that the reasoning by which we conclude that you're most likely a Boltzmann Brain is assuming that the laws of physics are what we are observing, but a Boltzmann Brain would typically be unaware of what real physics actually are and, as far as we know, quantum mechanics are a fiction invented by the Boltzmann Brain that is you. And then that would mean that the mechanism by which a Boltzmann Brain arises does not even exist.

Also I'm aware that the OP is arguing that Christianity is compatible with the simulation hypothesis, and he isn't discussing the existential crisis that results from simulation theory. I don't think that Christianity is compatible with simulation theory much at all.

JohnClay · Jan 13, 2020

Nihilist Virus said:
.....Also I'm aware that the OP is arguing that Christianity is compatible with the simulation hypothesis, and he isn't discussing the existential crisis that results from simulation theory. I don't think that Christianity is compatible with simulation theory much at all.

Firstly the Christianity I'm talking about either involves every word in the Bible being literal Truth or that some parts might be invented or figurative...

AI could be used to work out how apparent contradictions in the Bible can be reconciled as "real" history...
e.g.
The Genealogies of Jesus
it could calculate a possible time line where Jeconiah AND Neri are fathers of Shealtiel - apologists have already worked out some possible explanations. But we wouldn't be aware of these "actual" histories in our modern times.

The version of Christianity could involve a 6000 year old universe. Perhaps the apparent evidence for evolution involves demonic deception.

A simulation can explain why skeptics have trouble finding evidence for the angels, demons, heaven, hell, souls, and other supernatural things.

It can also explain how "God" can be outside of time.

A simulation allows any amount of ad-hoc tweaks such as hallucinations and delusions whenever necessary.

It explains how God can seem like a bronze age concept even though he would theoretically be aware of modern technology.

It can even involve God being a trinity.

If this isn't a simulation it seems odd to me that God would eternally exist as a Father and Son...

JohnClay · Jan 13, 2020

BTW there is a book I own called Physics of Christianity By Frank J. Tipler
The Best Review of The Physics of Christianity By Frank J. Tipler | FRANKTIPLER.COM

I haven't read much of it but I think it involves "the Omega Point" which is the concept that every person who ever lived is resurrected into a computer simulation that lasts forever while the universe collapses.

Nihilist Virus · Jan 13, 2020

JohnClay said:
Firstly the Christianity I'm talking about either involves every word in the Bible being literal Truth or that some parts might be invented or figurative...

AI could be used to work out how apparent contradictions in the Bible can be reconciled as "real" history...
e.g.
The Genealogies of Jesus
it could calculate a possible time line where Jeconiah AND Neri are fathers of Shealtiel - apologists have already worked out some possible explanations. But we wouldn't be aware of these "actual" histories in our modern times.

The version of Christianity could involve a 6000 year old universe. Perhaps the apparent evidence for evolution involves demonic deception.

A simulation can explain why skeptics have trouble finding evidence for the angels, demons, heaven, hell, souls, and other supernatural things.

It can also explain how "God" can be outside of time.

A simulation allows any amount of ad-hoc tweaks such as hallucinations and delusions whenever necessary.

It explains how God can seem like a bronze age concept even though he would theoretically be aware of modern technology.

It can even involve God being a trinity.

If this isn't a simulation it seems odd to me that God would eternally exist as a Father and Son...

The core of Christianity is the resurrection. If reality is simulated, did that event even happen?

Furthermore, if God is merely the operator of our simulation, then is he finite and mortal? Does he have a god? Is he in a simulation as well? How many nested simulations might there be?

JohnClay · Jan 13, 2020

Nihilist Virus said:
The core of Christianity is the resurrection. If reality is simulated, did that event even happen?

Well if a Christian God (AI?) is involved it is capable of practically anything so I would assume it might as well bring Jesus back from the dead...

Note that in simulations they can have "apparent age". So it could have begun last Thursday and people are given false memories of the "past".

Though to be more compatible with Christianity, the simulation would have begun when the universe was created whether it was 6000 or 13 billion years ago and it was all explicitly simulated. Or it began around the time of Eden and it worked backwards to create history... History could be tentative and "God" could go forwards and backwards in history so that things work out according to his will...

Maybe it deliberately allowed the evidence for the resurrection to be questionable so it can test people's faith.

Furthermore, if God is merely the operator of our simulation, then is he finite and mortal?

Yes though he might be an AI or connected to one.

Does he have a god? Is he in a simulation as well?

That seems probable. Often in movies about this there are simulations within simulations. See post #8.

How many nested simulations might there be?

Some people say that there could be an infinite number but I think each higher level you go up, more particles are required and I don't believe a universe could have an infinite number of particles - so there is a limit to the number of nested simulations. In theory there could be several levels. Or more if most people are simplified game characters.

Daniel Marsh · Jan 13, 2020

JohnClay said:
About the possibility we are in a computer simulation:
Simulation hypothesis - Wikipedia

If I lived in the far future I think a person (or AI) could create a world which is based on the Christian God. One of the only problems is that the God entity couldn't have existed for an eternity or last for an eternity. It could involve trillions of years though.

Note that there are signs which show we might be in a simulation - particles can be in two states simultaneously then they collapse when "observed" (computer games mainly focus what is observed). Space and time is quantized - just what you'd expect if computers are involved. In a Newtonian world the accuracy of time and space could be infinite.
If there is no limit to how small space and time is, there is a paradox:
Zeno's paradoxes - Wikipedia

Note that to involve the whole world, the simulation doesn't need to handle every single particle - it would focus on the ones that are observed. It would also involve "level of detail" (where the detail of objects [like a star in the sky] is based on how close you are, etc).

It's likely that simulations will become far better than they are already, but consider this:
Microsoft Flight Simulator returns as a mind-blowing cloud showcase

That game runs on a single computer (linked to a server to get the world data) and lets you go anywhere in the world and even shows blades of grass if you get close enough.

In a Christian simulation, the world could be created using AI that can understand voice commands. Anything from the Bible could happen including resurrections, parting of the Red Sea, demon possession, people surviving fire, etc.

It could also simulate Heaven and Hell for trillions of years. If you had people suffering in Hell by themselves, the AI could work out a simulation of it that doesn't take much CPU power. And the trillions of years could be simulated in a short amount of time, such as a day. Well that's being optimistic - maybe you could only simulate a million of years of Hell in one day.

The God entity could also go backwards and forwards in time in the simulation...

Except that the God entity not existing for a literal eternity backward or forward in time, and it having a creator, I think Christianity is compatible with the simulation hypothesis.

Who programmed the Computer?
Who built the Computer?
Who turned on the Computer?
Who made the Generator for Electricity?
Who created the internet in this simulation?
Who started the program?
I hope it is not running in windows.

JohnClay · Jan 15, 2020

I'm working on a theory for the purpose of the simulation I'm talking about...

I think it isn't clear which is the truth out of YEC, guided evolution and blind atheistic evolution. (and other belief systems)

I also think it isn't clear if the Bible is 100% true, partly true or if there is no God/supernatural.

The Bible says that it is 100% true. It also says 1 Corinthians 3:18-19

If any of you think you are wise by the standards of this age, you should become "fools" so that you may become wise. For the wisdom of this world is foolishness in God's sight

Perhaps this simulation is a test about black/white thinking (believe everything and go to paradise or go to hell) or a shades of grey belief (risking salvation) or a rejection of God (perhaps due to a lack of evidence in their eyes)

If this is a simulation then there doesn't have to be a consistent reality. There could be good reasons to believe any of those three main beliefs. Then there is also the possibility of other religions.

Different religions can be based on hallucinations and delusions and deceptive (possibly malicious) intelligences.

Here is a related quote:

All phenomena are real in some sense, unreal in some sense, meaningless in some sense, real and meaningless in some sense, unreal and meaningless in some sense, and real and unreal and meaningless in some sense.

- Robert Anton Wilson

JohnClay · Jan 15, 2020

Daniel Marsh said:
Who programmed the Computer?
Who built the Computer?
Who turned on the Computer?
Who made the Generator for Electricity?
Who created the internet in this simulation?
Who started the program?
I hope it is not running in windows.

I think AIs would have a large role and if there were humans or non-AIs they might be enhanced. Often they would be a part of a company or organisation.

JohnClay · Jan 15, 2020

From Futurama:

My favourite part is:

"God": Bender, being God isn't easy. If you do too much, people get dependent on you. And if you do nothing, they lose hope. You have to use a light touch like a safecracker or a pickpocket.

Bender: Or a guy who burns down the bar for the insurance money.

"God": Yes, if you make it look like an electrical thing. When you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all.

This is close to my experience of "God" - it explains why many atheists claim there is no clear evidence for the existence of God.

Daniel Marsh · Jan 15, 2020

JohnClay said:
I'm working on a theory for the purpose of the simulation I'm talking about...

I think it isn't clear which is the truth out of YEC, guided evolution and blind atheistic evolution. (and other belief systems)

I also think it isn't clear if the Bible is 100% true, partly true or if there is no God/supernatural.

The Bible says that it is 100% true. It also says 1 Corinthians 3:18-19

Perhaps this simulation is a test about black/white thinking (believe everything and go to paradise or go to hell) or a shades of grey belief (risking salvation) or a rejection of God (perhaps due to a lack of evidence in their eyes)

If this is a simulation then there doesn't have to be a consistent reality. There could be good reasons to believe any of those three main beliefs. Then there is also the possibility of other religions.

Different religions can be based on hallucinations and delusions and deceptive (possibly malicious) intelligences.

Here is a related quote:

1 Corinthians 3:18-19 does not prove your claim. The NT was not even compiled into a canon as of yet. Also, not even all the books of the NT were even written as of yet.

James - 50 A.D.
First Thessalonians - 52-53.
Second Thessalonians - 52-53.
Galatians - 55.
First Corinthians - 57.
Second Corinthians - 57.
Romans - 57-58.
Philippians - 62-63.
Colossians - 62-63.
Philemon - 62-63.
Ephesians - 62-63.
Luke - 63.
Acts - 64.
First Timothy - 65.
Titus - 65.
Second Timothy - 66.
Mark - 66.
Matthew - 67.
Hebrews - 67.
First Peter - 67-68.
Second Peter - 68.
Jude - 68.
Apocalypse - 68.
John - c. 85.
Epistles of John - 90-95.
Appendix 8: Chronological Order of the Books of the New Testament - Bible Study Tools

Daniel Marsh · Jan 15, 2020

read to here

JohnClay · Jan 16, 2020

Daniel Marsh said:
1 Corinthians 3:18-19 does not prove your claim.

The point is that a gospel preacher is saying that ordinary logic and reasoning might not be enough to discover the "Truth".

...Luke - 63.
Acts - 64.
First Timothy - 65.
Titus - 65.
Second Timothy - 66.
Mark - 66...

I thought normally scholars say that Mark was written before Luke.

Christianity and Computer Simulations?

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