St. Maximus the Confessor: ON THE FREE WILL OF CHRIST

SingularityOne · Oct 17, 2019

Archimandrite Irenei (Steenberg). Maximos the Confessor: On the Free Will of Christ

Can one explain logos, tropos, and gnomi in a different way so that I can more fully understand these concepts and how they are intertwined?

Also, the question that he poses at the end stumped me...

“Does not Maximos' conception of Christ as lacking a gnomic will in fact make His humanity somehow 'other' than that of humanity at large, and different from that of other human persons? Is there a contradiction between his insistence upon Christ as being entirely and fully human, yet lacking the gnomic will which Maximos' emphatically believes is shared by all other men?”

Can someone answer that?

ArmyMatt · Oct 17, 2019

to answer the question, no. the gnomic will is an aspect of our sinful state. we should only will the good as Christ does.

Not David · Oct 17, 2019

ArmyMatt said:
to answer the question, no. the gnomic will is an aspect of our sinful state. we should only will the good as Christ does.

So Father, the gnomic will is not natural on humans?

SingularityOne · Oct 17, 2019

ArmyMatt said:
to answer the question, no. the gnomic will is an aspect of our sinful state. we should only will the good as Christ does.

So, how does this “gnomic will” that we have (that Christ doesn’t have) relate to logos, tropos, and gnomi? I’m trying to figure out these concepts and their interrelatedness to understand the process of repentance towards humility more.

ArmyMatt · Oct 17, 2019

David Neos said:
So Father, the gnomic will is not natural on humans?

no.

Not David · Oct 17, 2019

ArmyMatt said:
no.

Then why do you say it is part of our sinful state?

ArmyMatt · Oct 17, 2019

SingularityOne said:
So, how does this “gnomic will” that we have (that Christ doesn’t have) relate to logos, tropos, and gnomi? I’m trying to figure out these concepts and their interrelatedness to understand the process of repentance towards humility more.

when I have time, I will try to read the article. I have been busy so I just tried to get at your last question.

ArmyMatt · Oct 17, 2019

David Neos said:
Then why do you say it is part of our sinful state?

because it is. nothing sinful or of our fallenness is natural to man.

SingularityOne · Oct 17, 2019

ArmyMatt said:
when I have time, I will try to read the article. I have been busy so I just tried to get at your last question.

I understand. Thank you Father.

Toolbelt · Oct 18, 2019

SingularityOne said:
Archimandrite Irenei (Steenberg). Maximos the Confessor: On the Free Will of Christ

Can one explain logos, tropos, and gnomi in a different way so that I can more fully understand these concepts and how they are intertwined?

Also, the question that he poses at the end stumped me...

“Does not Maximos' conception of Christ as lacking a gnomic will in fact make His humanity somehow 'other' than that of humanity at large, and different from that of other human persons? Is there a contradiction between his insistence upon Christ as being entirely and fully human, yet lacking the gnomic will which Maximos' emphatically believes is shared by all other men?”

Can someone answer that?

Logos pertains to the question of why. Like when one asks, Why did you wake up so early? Explaining your reasoning behind an action. The thought process one uses before taking action is logos.

Tropos is how one executes an action. Like when two persons walk to the store. They may take different routes there but, they both make it there. What's unique is how they executed their trip.

Gnomi is an opinion, or in this case an added opinion to what already exists. It pertains to an external influence. Like when someone twists your arm in an effort to redirect you. Something or someone that manipulates our natural thoughts.
In the human case, passions, fear of death and the human condition itself is gnomic. Can have profound Gnomi influence on us.
Lets say that you have foreknowledge that a person twisting your arm wont break it. That knowledge in itself, is enough to overcome the influence. Christ isnt affected by the shear fact of this knowledge.

SingularityOne · Oct 18, 2019

Toolbelt said:
Logos pertains to the question of why. Like when one asks, Why did you wake up so early? Explaining your reasoning behind an action. The thought process one uses before taking action is logos.

Tropos is how one executes an action. Like when two persons walk to the store. They may take different routes there but, they both make it there. What's unique is how they executed their trip.

Gnomi is an opinion, or in this case an added opinion to what already exists. It pertains to an external influence. Like when someone twists your arm in an effort to redirect you. Something or someone that manipulates our natural thoughts.
In the human case, passions, fear of death and the human condition itself is gnomic. Can have profound Gnomi influence on us.
Lets say that you have foreknowledge that a person twisting your arm wont break it. That knowledge in itself, is enough to overcome the influence. Christ isnt affected by the shear fact of this knowledge.

Thank you for the explanation! Still trying to understand gnomi though... could you give another example?

And, did Christ not have “gnomi”?

Toolbelt · Oct 18, 2019

SingularityOne said:
Thank you for the explanation! Still trying to understand gnomi though... could you give another example?

And, did Christ not have “gnomi”?

No. He wasn't born through generation. He is a recreation of Adam. His life, just like Adams was all encompassing and cosmological. Our lives aren't.

Toolbelt · Oct 18, 2019

Gnomi is an outside influence that can affect behavior. In us its the passions. Bodily influence.
Because man dies, he is influenced by his nature. His nature twists his arm and affects his decision making.

Toolbelt · Oct 18, 2019

Here we see the struggle first hand.

Law Cannot Save from Sin
13 Has then what is good become death to me? Certainly not! But sin, that it might appear sin, was producing death in me through what is good, so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful. 14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. 16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. 17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. 19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. 20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.

21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!

So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin

Toolbelt · Oct 18, 2019

In Christ, we have a situation where he can never become captive in something he can never be presented with. Hope that makes sense.

SingularityOne · Oct 18, 2019

Toolbelt said:
Here we see the struggle first hand.

Law Cannot Save from Sin
13 Has then what is good become death to me? Certainly not! But sin, that it might appear sin, was producing death in me through what is good, so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful. 14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. 16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. 17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. 19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. 20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.

21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!

So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin

So, “gnomi” only encompasses sin then?

Toolbelt · Oct 18, 2019

SingularityOne said:
So, “gnomi” only encompasses sin then?

No. Its mastery of the passions that god wants people to learn. Part of living a spiritual life involves overcoming the passions. Just because one is tempted doesn't mean they should take action on it. That comes with practice and grace.

SingularityOne · Oct 18, 2019

Toolbelt said:
No. Its mastery of the passions that god wants people to learn. Part of living a spiritual life involves overcoming the passions. Just because one is tempted doesn't mean they should take action on it. That comes with practice and grace.

Ah, so “gnomi” are the “opinions” that we have that are either in line with Christ’s mind or against His mind?

Toolbelt · Oct 18, 2019

Gnomi are a contradiction to the natural will. An example would be.
If you set your intent on going to the store and you leave your house. All of a sudden your body informs you of a need to use the rest room. Your body has interfered with your intent. So you go back in the house.
I'm using a passionless example but, certain passions lead us into sin. Death itself is probably one of the greatest.
There is a list of passion posted in the internet. Some are passionless and some sinful. They have power to divert our intent and are associated with our fallen nature.

SingularityOne · Oct 18, 2019

Toolbelt said:
Gnomi are a contradiction to the natural will. An example would be.
If you set your intent on going to the store and you leave your house. All of a sudden your body informs you of a need to use the rest room. Your body has interfered with your intent. So you go back in the house.
I'm using a passionless example but, certain passions lead us into sin. Death itself is probably one of the greatest.
There is a list of passion posted in the internet. Some are passionless and some sinful. They have power to divert our intent and are associated with our fallen nature.

So, the “gnomi”, in that passionless example, would be the body informing me that I need to go to the restroom”? Our natural intent is to fill our heart with God, but we have sinned and want to fill our heart with pleasure’s and sensations outside of God. The “gnomi” seem to be the inclinations that drive us away from God. Correct?

St. Maximus the Confessor: ON THE FREE WILL OF CHRIST

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