2 Thessalonians 1:7-10

Ed Parenteau said:

Perfect example of word replacement theology. The Thessalonians are the ones to whom Paul is writing, not Christians generically. Therefore, the 'you' that follows is always specifically referring to the Thessalonians. By taking away Thessalonians and replacing with Christians, makes the whole letter nonsensical. For instance: "2Thess 2: 5Do you(Christians) not remember that while I was still with you(Christians), I was telling you(Christians) these things? 6And you(Christians) know what restrains him now, so that in his time he will be revealed."
So, what things did he tell us Christians when he was with us about the man of lawlessness? And what did he say was restraining him?

Click to expand...

The following proves you can't be entirely correct since the 2nd coming never happened in their lifetimes.

1 Thessalonians 1:1 Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians which is in God the Father and in the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Thessalonians 1:9 For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God;
10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

1 Thessalonians 2:19 For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Are not even ye in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at his coming?

1 Thessalonians 3:11 Now God himself and our Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, direct our way unto you.
12 And the Lord make you to increase and abound in love one toward another, and toward all men, even as we do toward you:
13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

1 Thessalonians 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

1 Thessalonians 5:8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

2 Thessalonians 1:1 Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ:

2 Thessalonians 1:4 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:
5 Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:
6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

2 Thessalonians 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.


I see a pattern in the above, that being the 2nd coming.

Continuing.............
===============================
2 Thessalonians 1:7-10 Commentary: The Fact that “Jesus is revealed from Heaven in Blazing Fire” is also a Reference to the Destruction of Heaven and Israel, the Earth, by Fire as predicted in 2 Peter 3:7-13.

2 Thessalonians 1:7 pictures Christ being “revealed from heaven in blazing fire.” According to Josephus this army in the sky was seen at sunset in Iyyar. Perhaps this army in the sky also appeared when the sky over Israel shimmered with hues of orange and red giving an appearance of the sky being on fire as is often the case at sunset in Israel in this month? Regardless, the fact that “the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire”5 also subtly hints at the destruction of heaven and earth by fire predicted in 2 Peter 3:7-13.6
===================================
1 Peter 4:7 "THE END OF ALL THINGS IS NIGH AT HAND"

1 Peter 4:7 Of all-things yet, the End is nigh<1448>. Be sane then, and be sober into the prayers,

Click to expand...

James 5:8 be patient! also stand-fast the hearts of ye! that the Parousia <3952> of the Lord is drawn near<1448>

Click to expand...

Preterism Explained and Interpreted, A Commentary of 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10: The Land of Israel was burned by the Romans leaving it a Charred Waste.

Throughout the Book of Revelation, the Book of Daniel and much of the Bible, earth represents the nation of Israel and sea, the Gentile nations. See In the Bible “Earth” Signifies the Specific Land Addressed While “Sea” Symbolizes Foreign Nations.

In War of the Jews, Josephus repeatedly mentions the fact that as the Roman army actively suppressed the rebellion in Palestine, they burned many of the cities and much of the surrounding countryside as part of Rome’s scorched-earth policy.7 Thus the fact that Jesus was “revealed from heaven in blazing fire” foreshadowed the ultimate destruction of Israel, the earth, by fire. It is interesting to note that if a fire is sufficiently large the reds, yellows and orange hues of the flames can reflect in the smoke in the sky above the fire giving an illusion that the sky is also on fire at this time. For an added explanation see 2 Peter 3:5-13: A Preterist Commentary.


The burning of Jerusalem and its Temple in A.D. 70
==================================
Revelation 18:8 Thru this in one day shall be arriving Her blows, death and sorrow and famine.
And in fire She shall be utterly burned, that strong Lord the GOD, the One judging Her.
=====================================
The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD
Proof that Matthew 24 was fully fulfilled in 70 AD!
Also see: Rapture refuted

The flames which enveloped the Temple were so violent and impetuous, that the lofty hill. on which it stood appeared, even front its deep foundations, as one large body of fire.
The blood of the sufferers flowed in proportion to the rage of this de structive element ; and the number of the slain exceeded all calculation. The ground could not be seen for the dead bodies, over which the Romans trampled in pursuit of the fugitives ; while the crackling noise of the devouring flames mingled with the clamor of arms, the groans of the dying and the shrieks of despair, augmented the tremendous horror of a scene, to which the pages of history can furnish no parallel.

Amongst the tragical events which at this time occured, the following is more particularly deserving of notice : a false prophet, pretending to a divine commission, affirmed that, if the people would repair to the Temple, they should behold signs of their speedy deliverance. Accordingly about six thousand persons, chiefly women and children, assembled in a gallery, that was yet standing, on the outside of the building. Whilst they waited in anxious expectation of the promised miracle, the Romans with the most wanton barbarity, set fire to the gallery ; from which, multitudes; rendered frantic by their horrible situation, precipitated themselves on the ruins below, and were killed by the fall : while, awful to relate, the rest, without a single exception, perished in the flames.
====================================================
Visual Timeline of the Roman-Jewish War ARTchive @ PreteristArchive.com, The Internet's Only Balanced Look at Preterist Eschatology and Preterism

With Vespasian taking over the government of the Roman Empire, his son Titus Flavius Vespasianus (AD 9-79; Joint Emperor AD 69-79 ; Sole Emperor 79-81) takes over as field marshal of the Roman forces opposing the Jewish revolt. Titus and Tiberius Alexander, Prefect of Egypt, march to Caesarea from Alexandria, bringing with them reinforcements from the 18th and 3rd Augusta Legions. The 12th Legion marched down from Syria, and three thousand legionaries of the 23rd and/or 24th Legions marched west from the Euphrates. In April, 70, Titus led the 12th and 15th Legions and the 3rd Augusta and 18th Legion cohorts out of Caesarea towards Jerusalem. Upon arriving, he encamped on Mount Scopus, north of the city.

APRIL, A.D. 70 - PHASE ONE
THE ROMAN ARMY ARRIVES AT JERUSALEM TO PREPARE THE SIEGE

The first night of Titus' encampment with the 15th, 3rd and 18th Legions, the 5th Legion arrived from Emmaus and set camp north of the city on Mount Scopus. Later the next day, the famed 10th Legion (founded by Julius Caesar) marched in from Jericho and camped on the Mount of Olives, east of the city........
==========================

mkgal1 said:

The Parousia is not "the 2nd Coming".

The "coming" that the disciples of Christ were anticipating was the enthronement of Christ on the promised throne of David:

Luke 1:32-33 ~ "He will be great and he will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of David his father. He will rule over Jacob's house forever, and there will be no end to his kingdom."

ETA: The destruction of Jerusalem (was) a dramatic and visible manifestation (“sign”) of the heavenly rule (in the Parousia) of the Son of Man.”

Quoting James Jordan: "Thus we should now understand that the destruction of Jerusalem was in fact the proof that He (Jesus) had indeed ascended to heaven and “in His Parousia" had become the King of kings and Lord of Lord” upon the throne of His glory, i.e. the throne of His father David". The destruction of the Old Creation is of incalculable importance to Biblical theology. It is not some mere mopping up operation, but was teh great public historical vindication of Jesus by the Father. Those who fail to see this fact generally discount the importance of the destruction of Jerusalem, and thus fail to see why it occupies so much attention in the Gospels, and also fail to see that it is the major concern of the book of Revelation. We might just as well call the book of Revelation "the Vindication of Jesus Christ". (The Handwriting on the Wall: a commentary on the book of Daniel, p 340-342) The Handwriting on the Wall​

Click to expand...

1 Thessalonians 1:1 Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians which is in God the Father and in the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Thessalonians 1:9 For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God;
10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.


For the time being what is your interpretation of verse 10 above?

Let's consider Acts 3 as well.

Acts 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

Do you see any of this involving the 2nd coming?

I would think, in 1 Thessalonians 1:10---And to wait for his Son from heaven---is because of this in Acts 3:21---Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things

I would also think, in Acts 3:20---And he shall send Jesus Christ..is meaning once the wait for His Son from heaven is over, thus is meaning the 2nd coming. 1 Thessalonians 1:10 is clearly being applied to the church of the Thessalonians in verse 1 of that same chapter, yet the 2nd coming never occurred within their lifetimes. And like I showed, unless you deny Acts 3:19-21 involves the 2nd coming at some point, that passage proves 1 Thessalonians 1:10 involves the 2nd coming once the wait for His Son from heaven is over.

mkgal1 said:

ETA: The destruction of Jerusalem (was) a dramatic and visible manifestation (“sign”) of the heavenly rule (in the Parousia) of the Son of Man.”

Click to expand...

This appears to be simply from tradition of men, not from Scripture.

Ed Parenteau said:

Perfect example of word replacement theology. The Thessalonians are the ones to whom Paul is writing, not Christians generically. Therefore, the 'you' that follows is always specifically referring to the Thessalonians. By taking away Thessalonians and replacing with Christians, makes the whole letter nonsensical. For instance: "2Thess 2: 5Do you(Christians) not remember that while I was still with you(Christians), I was telling you(Christians) these things? 6And you(Christians) know what restrains him now, so that in his time he will be revealed."
So, what things did he tell us Christians when he was with us about the man of lawlessness? And what did he say was restraining him?

Click to expand...

So your belief is that the Bible is Written to dead people and has no relevance to us today?

Hello Parousia70, thanks for your interest and reply.

In the previous post (#5) I stated the following.

The passage above certainly states that believer's will find relief from their suffering when Jesus returns.

Click to expand...

To which you replied.

Not believers in general, but the actual 1st century Thessalonian congregation.

Click to expand...

Actually you may need to read the quoted passage again. As your comprehension of the passage (2 Thessalonians 1:7-10) is erroneous.

2 Thessalonians 1:7
And to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven.

The phrase 'to us as well' means Paul includes other people besides the Thessalonians.

Then you stated.

That is the FACE VALUE rendering of the passage.

Click to expand...

Your not reading the text itself.

Here are two more verses in the immediate context of this second letter to the Thessalonians.

2 Thessalonians 1:9-10
These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed, for our testimony to you was believed.

Not just the Thessalonians will be rescued and that is what the quoted passage declares.

2 Thessalonians 2:2
Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him...

Any attempt to REMOVE them from direct application of the passage, as you appear to be doing, is you applying an interpretation to the text that the text itself does not teach.

Click to expand...

No interpretation of that passage (2 Thessalonians 1:7-10) is evident in my post #5.

The Hope of Relief Paul is encouraging the Thessalonians to have is Key to understanding the timing...

Click to expand...

You are now applying an interpretation to the quoted passage after clearly misreading the quoted passage cited in the OP.

Jesus came and cut off the Jewish persecution against the Thessalonian congregation. That's what they were expecting, and that is what they got -- scripture is very specific on it. It was a then-contemporary situation. Follow the scriptures on this...

Click to expand...

I could find no evidence of a Jewish persecution against the Thessalonians in the quoted text ( 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10). Perhaps you could specify the verse or phrase that indicates a Jewish persecution.

The Thessalonicans were being persecuted by the Jews who were stirring up violence against them in their city (see Acts 17:1-14).

Click to expand...

That is beyond the scope of the OP.

The passage you quoted (Acts 17:1-14) does not necessarily imply that the suffering the Thessalonians endured, was directed by the Jews. You must quote from the context of the letter (2 Thessalonians) more precisely, otherwise you will be applying an interpretation to the text.

Paul mentions this specifically at 1 Thessalonians 2:14-16, saying that "God's wrath was to come upon them to the uttermost." Specifically, it was the coming of Jesus Christ to them that was to end that Jewish persecution against them. Paul writes:

"This is a plain indication of God's righteous judgment so that you will be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which indeed you are suffering. For it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well WHEN the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire" (2 Thessalonians 1:5-7)

Click to expand...

Here Parousia70, read the text you quoted again.

1 Thessalonians 2:14
For you, brethren, became imitators of the churches of God in Christ Jesus that are in Judea, for you also endured the same sufferings at the hands of your own countrymen, even as they did from the Jews.

We see that the Thessalonians were being persecuted bu their own countrymen, i.e., Thessalonians persecuting Thessalonians.

This is the opposite of what you were saying.

When would God give affliction to those that were persecuting the Thessalonican congregation and grant relief to the Thessalonians?

A. When the Lord Jesus was revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire.

Click to expand...

Correct.

Ask yourself:
Are the 1st century Thessalonians STILL suffering persecution at the Hands of the 1st century Jews?

Click to expand...

Incorrect as the text states the contrary.

If not, then the only option is that Christ’s coming happened and ended their persecution. There is no other scriptural option.

Click to expand...

An invalid interpretation and not based directly on the text itself.

I agree, but I find it interesting you say this, but then immediately elongate and elasticize the text to not only include others beyond the 1st century Thessalonians whom Paul was directly addressing, but in fact your stated interpretation EXCLUDES them from ANY application of the passage at all.

Click to expand...

Erroneous, as I did not interpret the text.

Ed Parenteau said:

Perfect example of word replacement theology. The Thessalonians are the ones to whom Paul is writing, not Christians generically. Therefore, the 'you' that follows is always specifically referring to the Thessalonians. By taking away Thessalonians and replacing with Christians, makes the whole letter nonsensical.

Click to expand...

Read the passage in the OP again and carefully.

2 Thessalonians 1:9-10
These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed, for our testimony to you was believed.

All Christians, all saints, are mentioned by Paul.

This is not a 'replacement theology' at all, this is what the text states!

mkgal1 said:

This was brought up in another thread (and it was off topic there) so I wanted to continue the discussion here.

It was posted:




I will give others a chance to give their views first.

Click to expand...

As far as I can tell, every reference to Jesus' second coming involves loud sounds and bright light. This one is no exception. As a result, I believe that Jesus' return will happen once to renew his creation and his people. He will also judge the sheep and the goats (Matthew 25:31-46). Included among the "goats" are all unrepentant unbelievers like those who were persecuting the Thessalonians.

keras said:

So your belief is that the Bible is Written to dead people and has no relevance to us today?

Click to expand...

The passage quoted in the O.P was not written to dead people as the Thessalonians, were alive when they received that letter from Paul.

How you then, no doubt, interpret that second letter to the Thessalonians, and then proceed to apply it to yourself and others. Is your business and beyond the Op itself.

mkgal1 said:

This was brought up in another thread (and it was off topic there) so I wanted to continue the discussion here.

It was posted:




I will give others a chance to give their views first.

Click to expand...

It describes the "day of the Lord". It is either God's wrath through the enemy or the "last day". If you do a study on the day of the Lord, you will find similarities. As far as Dispensational vs non, it has to do with whether or not Paul was speaking about 70AD or the "last day".

parousia70 said:

None, as they all heeded their Master's Warning to Flee upon witnessing the AoD.

However, the judgment associated with Christ's 1st century Parousia was not merely restricted to the land of Israel or Jerusalem as you seem to imply (although that was the center). Disasters were going on all over the empire as God's wrath was being poured out. While we could turn to a slew of historical resources to show the famines, city-sized destructions from earthquakes, and empire-wide wars that were breaking out by God's design, we need only to look in our bibles to see how the churches around the empire were being affected at that time:

--THE END-OF-THE-AGE TRIBULATION--

* world-wide famine (Acts 11:27-29)

* plagues (1 Cor 11:29-31)

* world-wide suffering of the church (1 Pet 4:7,12-13; 5:9; 2 Thess 1:4-6)

* judgment upon the empire's kings/rulers (Acts 12:1-4/19-24; 23:1-3; 24:24-25)

* the apostasy (book of Jude; 2 Tim 1:15; 2 Tim 4:16)

--THE RELIEF PROVIDED BY CHRIST'S PAROUSIA--

* Christ's Coming to First-Century Thessalonica
promise: 2 Thess 1:6-7
result: their persecutors would be cut off, ending their persecution

* Christ's Coming to First-Century Thyatira
promise: Rev 2:18-25
result: their false prophetess and all her followers would be killed off by
Christ's coming. The Church was granted Christ's authority.

* Christ's Coming to First-Century Pergamum
promise: Rev 2:12-16
result: the heretical Nicolaitans were to put down by Christ's coming to
Pergamum. The Nicolaitans that were causing them to break the decree of the Council of Jerusalem were killed (Rev 2:14; cf. Acts 15:28-29).

* Christ's Coming to First-Century Sardis
promise: Rev 3:1-5
result: Christ promises them that his "thief-in-the-night" coming will come
upon them. They had not been faithfully expecting "the thief" as explained to them in Matt 24:43/1 Thess5:2-5. However, a few in Sardis were found worthy and had not soiled their garments. At Christ's coming to them "they walked in white, for they were worthy" (Rev 3:4-5).

* Christ's Coming to First-Century Philadelphia
promise: Rev 3:7-13
result: Christ puts down the then-contemporary Jewish persecution (3:9).
He preserves the Church at Philadelphia through the testing which was then about to come upon the whole empire (3:10). God makes his faithful ones "pillars" in the Temple of God.

* Christ's Coming to First-Century Laodicea
promise: Rev 3:14-21
result: Christ is shown to be knocking at their door as first promised in Matt 24:33 (cf. also James 5:9). If they didn't repent it appears they were annihilated. Repentant and obedient followers said to become partakers of Christ's heavenly authority.

I could add many other things, but this will do for now. It is clear that the scriptures contain the historic record of the tribulation period, and they explain the relief that Christ's Parousia brought to the churches around the empire, precisely as they were promised. Christ did not fail them.

Click to expand...

Can you show any passages which you believe refer to a future Second Coming of Christ, or a future bodily resurrection, and judgement of the dead?


.

mkgal1 said:

St. Paul wrote this second epistle, reminding them that certain events, which had not yet taken place, must precede the ‘day of the Lord.’ There is nothing, however, in the epistle to suggest that the Parousia was a distant event, but the contrary.

THE PAROUSIA A TIME OF JUDGMENT TO THE ENEMIES OF CHRIST,
AND OF DELIVERANCE TO HIS PEOPLE

2 THESS i.7-10. - ‘And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, in flaming fire, taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his power: in that day when he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believed.’

It is obvious from the allusions in the commencement of this epistle that the Thessalonians were at this time suffering severely from the malice of their Jewish persecutors​

Click to expand...

The text (1 Thessalonians 2) states that the Thessalonians were undergoing persecution from their fellow countrymen, i.e., other Thessalonians.
The persecution by the Jews was against the churches in Judea and not against Gentile churches such as in Thessalonica.
Jews in the time of Paul were prohibited from associating with sinful, filthy Gentiles.

Here read the text yourself.

1 Thessalonians 2:14
For you, brethren, became imitators of the churches of God in Christ Jesus that are in Judea, for you also endured the same sufferings at the hands of your own countrymen, even as they did from the Jews.

On a side note, what is the wrath described below?

1 Thessalonians 2:16
Hindering us from speaking to the Gentiles so that they may be saved; with the result that they always fill up the measure of their sins. But wrath has come upon them to the utmost.

Offering a date for the authorship of this text (1 Thessalonians) by Paul considering that 'wrath' and 'to the utmost' in that last line. Will create a considerable problem for pin pointing the date of the authorship of 1 Thessalonians.

mkgal1 said:

They were ALIVE when the letters were written to them. It certainly doesn't EXCLUDE the people Paul was addressing around 51-52 A.D. That doesn't mean the Bible isn't instructive or useful FOR us.

Click to expand...

Who said Paul addressed the Thessalonians in '51-52'. That seems to be a rather early date for Paul's authorship.

You need to explain the 'wrath' to the 'utmost' that the Jews underwent before Paul even wrote his first letter to the Thessalonians.

mkgal1 said:

That's off topic. We're discussing 2 Thess 1 in this thread.

Click to expand...

Very good point and keep reminding everyone.

Well at least keep the conversation to the two letters to the Thessalonians.