Is salvation by grace alone? Or faith alone? Or grace through faith? or by faith plus repentance?

Bible Highlighter · Oct 13, 2019

gradyll said:
Since Jesus came there was only two places in the new testament that revealed God's anger toward man. Both were toward the religious hypocrite.

Actuallly, that is not exactly true. Jesus was also angry with Peter when he tried to prevent Him in going to the cross (See Matthew 16:22-23). Jesus rebuked Peter and called him satan.

You said:
A religious hypocrite tells others how to be saved, but cannot save himself.

Thank you for the false slander. I will rejoice in God my Savior.

You said:
See salvation is a free gift

But like all gifts in life, they come with responsibilities in keeping them.
If you receive a free car as a gift, you cannot run red lights, drive drunk, and hit pedestrians or you will not have your gift for very long. If you prayed for a wife for many years and you eventually receive a wife from the Lord and consider her as a gift, then that does not mean you can cheat on her and or not love her and expect for her to stay with you. It is the same with God. Disloyalty to GOD means we do not really love GOD and we just love ourselves more than Him. GOD calls us to obedience to His Word. This was the problem that goes all the way back to the Garden of Eden. But men today want to say that we can break God's commands and they will not die. This was the same lie that the enemy was trying to sell Eve on. The serpent told her that she would not die if she ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (Which was a violation of God's command).

You said:
as romans four and ephesians 2 states,

There are two kinds of works that we are saved by. Justification, and Sanctification. You are assuming that there is only one process in salvation when such a thing is not true (See 2 Thessalonians 2:13). For not only are we saved by God's grace through faith (Ephesians 2:8-9, and Romans 4:1-3), but we are also saved by the Sanctification process (holy living, and works), as well (See: Romans 8:1, Romans 8:13, Titus 1:16, James 2:24, Hebrews 5:9, John 5:29, etc.). Sanctification comes after we are saved by God's grace (Justification).

You said:
yes we must repent of our sin and turn to the true God. But that is a free gift too. We get to repent, after Christ forgives us and gives us a new slate, we are allowed to repent. In the Bible it speaks of "granting repentance" See God grants us that gift.

No. Repentance is not a gift. Grace is the gift and we receive that gift of our own free will by faith in Christ for salvation (i.e. Accepting Jesus as our Savior, believing in His death, and resurrection on our behalf, and in seeking forgiveness with Him). Granting repentance as mentioned in 2 Timothy 2:25 is referring to giving men an opportunity to repent. This is not some forced thing being pushed upon a person.

"who is gentle as you correct your opponents, for it may be that God will give them the opportunity to repent and come to know the truth" (2 Timothy 2:25) (GNT).

You said:
Before Christ came into our lives we were bound to sin, we were stuck in addictive behaviour. But after Christ came He did away with the law of sin and death.

Why do you think Paul refers to the Law as the Law of sin and death in Romans 8:2?
It is because Paul was referring to the Old Testament Law of Moses (the 613 Laws given to Israel) because if a person disobeyed certain OT laws, they could be killed). This is not the case in the New Testament or New Covenant. In fact, in the same verse (Romans 8:2), Paul mentions another kind of Law. It is the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus. This Law is described to us in Romans 8:1. So if Paul was against all forms of law (in regards to salvation), then the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus would not be true and it would be false. 1 John 3:23 says that believing in Jesus is a commandment. Is this Law or command also null and void because no law plays a part in our salvation? Surely not. So you have to understand which Law Paul is referring to. You want it to be in reference to all laws or works in general, but this is simply not the case.

Bible Highlighter · Oct 13, 2019

gradyll said:
“...And having become servants of God, ye have your fruit unto holiness and the end, everlasting life.” (Romans 6:22).

Notice that Romans 6:22 does not say that we are unprofitable servants of God and that that we are unfruitful, and we are living unrighteously and at the end, there is everlasting life. While this verse may not be a slam dunk in saying that works play a part in the salvation process, it does imply it. For there is no verse that says the exact opposite of Romans 6:22. So this leads us to the conclusion that we need to be servants of God, and our fruit should lead unto holiness, which then leads to everlasting life (Glorification or when the Lord takes us home). But when I talk with most (and not all) Belief Alone Proponents, or Eternal Security believers, they say that nobody can truly live holy or overcome grievous sins (like lying, lusting, hating, etc.). They say the carnal Christian is saved, etc. In other words, it does not sound like the majority of them (or at least most of those I have talked with) are in support of the idea of having fruit unto true holiness (or in having a holy life as defined in the Bible).

You said:
”Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.” (Matthew 25:34-40).

“Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.” (Matthew 25:41-46).

The orange verses I don't exactly know but some theologians believe parts of the gospels talk about the millenial reign and I would not know if that is the case or not, I typically don't study theology anymore, just the Bible itself. But one down fall of just studying the Bible is that I don't always see unified chain references to verses in other parts of the Bible for one, and so this type of thing I would not know,

Eternal Security Proponents believe that Matthew 25:31-46 is dealing with the judgment of nations (which will go through the Millennium), and not individuals in an attempt to explain this passage away. Yes, Matthew 25:32 refers to the gathering of nations, but nations are made up of individuals, and nowhere does another part of the Bible talk about how nations in the end times will go through the Millennium because they helped the poor, and those nations who did not help the poor will be punished with everlasting punishment. That makes no sense. That would be teaching salvation by works alone (Which is what both Jesus and Paul condemns).

Besides, we see other places in the Bible that suggest that helping the poor deals with salvation. In the story of Lazarus and the rich-man, we learn that the rich-man's lack of compassion involving Lazarus (who was a suffering poor man in the real world) is reciprocated in return with the rich-man's time in torments (or hell) (Luke 16:19-31). For the rich-man desired to have mercy from Lazarus in the place of torments, but he did not get it because he did not have compassion on Lazarus when he was alive. He reaped what he sowed. He refused to help the poor man at his gates, and his fate was suffering in the place of torments as a result (with nobody showing him compassion or help).

Another place is in Luke 10:25-37. We learn that Jesus agrees with the lawyer on the truth from the Scriptures that we need to love GOD, and love our neighbor as a part of inheriting eternal life, and tells the lawyer to do this and he will live (Luke 10:25-28). But the lawyer asked (trying to justify himself), "Who is my neighbor?" Jesus then gave us the "Parable of the Good Samaritan" which was about helping the poor beat up man on the side of the road. For Jesus said, "Go, and do likewise." (Luke 10:29-37). In other words, the poor man is our neighbor in whom we are to love as a part of inheriting eternal life.

Yet again in the Bible, we see that helping the poor is related to salvation. For James condemn those believers he is writing to in the fact that they showed favor to the rich brethren, but they did not show any favor to the poor brethren (by helping them). James makes his case that if they love their neighbor as themselves they will fulfill the royal law and they will do well. But committing respect of persons by showing favor to rich brethren and giving no favor or help to the poor brethren is committing a serious sin (whereby they would have broken all of God's laws as a result in doing so) (James 2:1-13). "There will be no mercy for those who have not shown mercy to others. But if you have been merciful, God will be merciful when he judges you." (James 2:13) (NLT). So again, we see that helping the poor is tied to eternal life or salvation.

You said:
I could look it up however this weekend if it is important for you to have my exact theory on the... verses.

Well, you said before that you don't really know what these passages in Matthew 25 mean. Why would I trust your interpretation if the meaning of these passages are entirely new for you and you do not know what they currently say?

Besides, it appears that you will not give me an answer on this one because you later decided to end our discussion. But that's okay. I am not expecting you to tell me anything I have not already heard before by other OSAS or Belief Alone Proponents.

You said:
on the yellow verses.

You mean orange verses, right?

Anyways, while you may not be reading my posts anymore, it is my hope that only good things be upon you from the Lord Jesus Christ.

May you please be well (even if we strongly disagree on the topic of Soteriology).

Bible Highlighter · Oct 14, 2019

gradyll said:
”His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.” (Matthew 25:21).

”And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” (Matthew 25:30).

This makes no sense that you would label Matthew 25:30 as being for salvific repentance (of which you define as turning away from sin), and yet you do not highlight Matthew 25:21. Both verses are tied together within the Parable of the Talents and are making the same point. The point of the Parable of the Talents is that we have to be faithful to the Lord over the resources and or talents (skills) that the Lord has given to us. If we are faithful to the Lord with what we have, we will be profitable servants and enter the joy of the Lord. However, if we do not do anything for the Lord, we will end up as unprofitable servants and we will be cast into outer darkness where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth. To be faithful to the Lord with what we have implies that we have to do good works for the Lord. For Jesus commanded us in the great commission to preach the gospel, and to make disciples of all nations, and teaching them to obey His commandments (Matthew 28:18-20). Jesus commanded us, "Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven." (Matthew 5:16). These works would be the good works that the Lord does through us.

We are commanded to do good works here and or to cooperate with the good work GOD wants to do through us. Is the servant who refused to preach the gospel, and to teach others Christ's commands a faithful servant? Even the one who is faithful over a little is told to enter the joy of the Lord (Matthew 25:21). But some today think they can sin and still be saved. But Hebrews 12:14 says that without holiness, no man shall see the Lord. This is why the believers who did wonderful works in Christ's name were told to depart from Christ in Matthew 7:23. It was because they also worked iniquity or sin. So Sanctification is not only about good works, but is also about truly living a holy and pure life for the Lord. We cannot teach others that believers can willfully commit sin and still be saved. For Hebrews 10:26 says that if we willfully sin after we receive the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sin.

You said:
”Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation [i.e. as the people of Israel did when they rebelled against him in the desert.”] (Hebrews 3:12-15) (Note: The explanation on verse 15 in brackets is taken from the Living Bible Translation (TLB)).

”Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)” (Hebrews 3:10-11).

”Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief. (Hebrews 4:11).

Again, your choice of highlighting verses that refer to your definition of salvific repentance makes no sense. Hebrews 3:10-15, and Hebrews 4:11 are all saying a similar thing. We are told to hear God's voice. This would be the word of God within Scripture. This would be hearing the New Testament Scriptures. We are to hear what God says according to the New Testament. We are called today to exhort others to hear God's words in the NT. This would be preaching the gospel, helping the poor, loving your enemies, loving the brethren, etc. For Jesus and His followers teach these things within the New Testament Scriptures. These NT Scriptures are the voice of GOD for our day. We are to hear these words and not depart from the living GOD. But the deceitfulness of sin can harden a person's heart in departing from the faith. We are told labor to enter into God's rest. Laboring is obeying the Lord's commands within the New Covenant or New Testament (Which would include good works that the Lord desires of us). This is knowing His good ways. By doing so, we will enter into His rest (His love, and peace, and in being with Him one day). You said before that the carnal Christian is saved. But Hebrews here talks about how sin can harden a person's heart and make them depart from the living God. This does not mean they will become atheists exactly, but it simply means that they will stop in following the Lord as His Word describes. They will become their own gods and not submit their lives to the LORD anymore.

You said:
“In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.” (1 John 3:10).

You label this as salvific repentance (Which you define as turning away from sin, but it is not a work). But this very verse talks about doing good works because it says "Whoever does not righteousness is not of God, and neither is he who does not love his brother." In essence this equates that one who is of GOD (Which naturally means one is saved) is the kind of person who does righteousness, and loves his brother. Doing righteousness and loving your brother are clearly good works. So this aspect of being a true believer needs to be there to truly show if one is of GOD. This shows the necessity of works as a part of salvation because one cannot be a person that is not of GOD and still be saved; And 1 John 3:10 defines the difference between those who are of GOD and the devil. The person who is of GOD will do righteousness and love their brother (Which is cleary just another way of saying "good works").

Bible Highlighter · Oct 14, 2019

gradyll said:
I made this same mistake in the past before, usually it happens when we take lists from outside sources and have not actually studied them, but I am not saying you did this.

The list is my own that I have gathered by studying Scripture.
It was something I had to discover for myself.
I believe folks believe in Belief Alone-ism or Eternal Security because of what their Pastors told them and or what some article told them, and they did not come to learn this for themselves on their own in studying Scripture alone via by prayer with the Lord.

You said:
“He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God” (John 8:47).

You do not label this as dealing with your definition of salvific repentance (turning away from sin and yet it is not a work) and yet you labeled 1 John 3:10 as dealing with your version of salvific repentance (even though 1 John 3:10 says a similar thing as John 8:47). John 8:47 is saying that anyone who is of GOD will obey God's words (which would be our NT Scriptures of today). The New Testament Scriptures contain the words of Jesus and His followers. They include commands for us to follow and they are the words of GOD. If we hear (obey) these words, we are of GOD. If we do not obey them, we are not of GOD. Jesus commanded us to do good works (Matthew 5:16), such as preach the gospel, help the poor, love the brethren, love one's enemies, etc.; So clearly good works play a part in salvation because John 8:47 says that that person who is of GOD will hear (obey) God's Word (Which would naturally include the good works the Lord commanded of us).

You said:
so all the green are verses that I believe encompass salvic repentance, turning from some type of idol to the living God. Not works,

This is a vague description of rentance at best, my friend. Turning away from idols and turning to GOD. That could mean anything. Sure, it may include saying "no" to certain sins, but when you say that you turn to GOD, what do you exactly do? Do you do nothing when you turn to GOD? Do you worship Him? Do you serve Him? Do you love Him? Jesus said if you love me, keep my commandments (John 14:15). Paul says if any man loves not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be accursed (1 Corinthians 16:22). Keeping Christ's commandments involves doing good works.

You said:
again as I have said before if these were works then that would contradict ephesians 2 and romans 4. So that cannot possibly be meritting eternal life.

Ephesians 2:8-9 and Romans 4:1-7 are dealing with the Justification Process, and not the Sanctification Process. I believe you are not willing to harmonize the verses on Justification with Sanctification together because you desire to defend the popular unbiblical beliefs of Belief Alone-ism, and or Eternal Security (Which is appealing because it gives comfort to it's listeners without any major change or effort made within their lives).

You said:
Again if we meritted eternal life we could have pride in that exact fact, and pride is a sin. So we would disqualify ourself.

There is no real proof that your statement here is correct in what you say. If we believe that GOD does forgive and save us by His sacrifice (the 1st work of GOD), and we believe that GOD does the good work through us as a part of salvation (the 2nd work of GOD), we will not boast within ourselves or be prideful about it, but we will give praises to GOD because they are works of GOD ultimately done in our lives and not our own works alone. For Jesus said that we can do nothing without Him (John 15:5).

You said:
and again you have not addressed my probing questions, if you have meritted eternal life then you have two problems, you either have security that you are christian, or you don't. If you don't then this gospel is not saving you, if you do have security then I have to ask, how are you doing following all of the verses you just posted Above? Are you following them as needed for salvation?

My life has nothing to do with what the Bible says. The Bible is true regardless of any one person's life. My life is not the standard for holy living but it is the Bible that sets that standard or bar. For if a believer told you that they live like a saint, would you believe them? If a believer (who believes as I do) told you that they struggle with sin, would that really change what the Bible says? No, it wouldn't. God's Word is true regardless of any one person's life. Paul says in 2 Corinthians 7:1 to us believers that we are to cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit perfecting holiness in the fear of GOD. Now, I am not suggesting Sinless Perfectionism here (although, Paul appears to be teaching that), my point here is that we can overcome grievous sin (like lying, lusting, hating, etc.). But do you truly believe 2 Corinthians 7:1 in what it plainly says?

You said:
now the blue verses in my opinion are verses of law, that are meant to be a school master. The laws of the Bible in general are meant to be a school master to bring us to Christ, to make us humiliated that we are no good enough to enter life by our works, something that you have yet to learn I guess. And in being a school master, you don't shoot your teacher after they teach you, you embrace what they taught and use it to better yourself, just realize in humility that there is no way we can ever merit eternal life.

You believe that Matthew 19:17-19 is not dealing with eternal life. But Matthew 19:17-19 describes salvific repentance in your view in putting away sins such as murder, adultery, theft, etc. and turning to GOD.

You also label the words "this do and you will live." in Luke 10:28 as being blue (as being of the Law that does not apply for our salvation), but you did not highlight the other verses that are related in Luke 10:25-28. All of Luke 10:25-37 is related to the same point. To love God and to love your neighbor is a part of inheriting eternal life. This has not changed after the cross. For loving your neighbor is a part of eternal life after the cross. Loving your brother (loving your neighbor) is walking in the light according to 1 John 2:9-11, and 1 John 1:7 says that by walking in the light, the blood of Jesus cleanses us of all sin. 1 John 3:15 says that hating our brother means we are like a murderer, and no murderer has eternal life abiding in them. 1 John 3:10 says that he that does not righteousness or does not love his brother is not of GOD. Loving the Lord (GOD) is a part of eternal life, too. Paul says if any man loves not the Lord Jesus Christ (Who is God) they are accursed (See 1 Corinthians 16:22).

You said:
I do believe there is a law of love, love of God and neighbor, and this law summarizes all of the previous laws. I believe that repentance incorporates love of God and man. Again loving others is not a work of righteousness or law, but a response to being loved. Love typically is a response.

You can believe what you like, but the Bible says that there is a labour (work) of love.

"Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;" (1 Thessalonians 1:3).

The Bible says there is a work of love.

"For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister." (Hebrews 6:10).

In any event, may you be blessed in the Lord today.

BNR32FAN · Oct 14, 2019

Bible Highlighter said:
The list is my own that I have gathered by studying Scripture.
It was something I had to discover for myself.
I believe folks believe in Belief Alone-ism or Eternal Security because of what their Pastors told them and or what some article told them, and they did not come to learn this for themselves on their own in studying Scripture alone via by prayer with the Lord.

You do not label this as dealing with your definition of salvific repentance (turning away from sin and yet it is not a work) and yet you labeled 1 John 3:10 as dealing with your version of salvific repentance (even though 1 John 3:10 says a similar thing as John 8:47). John 8:47 is saying that anyone who is of GOD will obey God's words (which would be our NT Scriptures of today). The New Testament Scriptures contain the words of Jesus and His followers. They include commands for us to follow and they are the words of GOD. If we hear (obey) these words, we are of GOD. If we do not obey them, we are not of GOD. Jesus commanded us to do good works (Matthew 5:16), such as preach the gospel, help the poor, love the brethren, love one's enemies, etc.; So clearly good works play a part in salvation because John 8:47 says that that person who is of GOD will hear (obey) God's Word (Which would naturally include the good works the Lord commanded of us).

This is a vague description of rentance at best, my friend. Turning away from idols and turning to GOD. That could mean anything. Sure, it may include saying "no" to certain sins, but when you say that you turn to GOD, what do you exactly do? Do you do nothing when you turn to GOD? Do you worship Him? Do you serve Him? Do you love Him? Jesus said if you love me, keep my commandments (John 14:15). Paul says if any man loves not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be accursed (1 Corinthians 16:22). Keeping Christ's commandments involves doing good works.

Ephesians 2:8-9 and Romans 4:1-7 are dealing with the Justification Process, and not the Sanctification Process. I believe you are not willing to harmonize the verses on Justification with Sanctification together because you desire to defend the popular unbiblical beliefs of Belief Alone-ism, and or Eternal Security (Which is appealing because it gives comfort to it's listeners without any major change or effort made within their lives).

There is no real proof that your statement here is correct in what you say. If we believe that GOD does forgive and save us by His sacrifice (the 1st work of GOD), and we believe that GOD does the good work through us as a part of salvation (the 2nd work of GOD), we will not boast within ourselves or be prideful about it, but we will give praises to GOD because they are works of GOD ultimately done in our lives and not our own works alone. For Jesus said that we can do nothing without Him (John 15:5).

My life has nothing to do with what the Bible says. The Bible is true regardless of any one person's life. My life is not the standard for holy living but it is the Bible that sets that standard or bar. For if a believer told you that they live like a saint, would you believe them? If a believer (who believes as I do) told you that they struggle with sin, would that really change what the Bible says? No, it wouldn't. God's Word is true regardless of any one person's life. Paul says in 2 Corinthians 7:1 to us believers that we are to cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit perfecting holiness in the fear of GOD. Now, I am not suggesting Sinless Perfectionism here (although, Paul appears to be teaching that), my point here is that we can overcome grievous sin (like lying, lusting, hating, etc.). But do you truly believe 2 Corinthians 7:1 in what it plainly says?

You believe that Matthew 19:17-19 is not dealing with eternal life. But Matthew 19:17-19 describes salvific repentance in your view in putting away sins such as murder, adultery, theft, etc. and turning to GOD.

You also label the words "this do and you will live." in Luke 10:28 as being blue (as being of the Law that does not apply for our salvation), but you did not highlight the other verses that are related in Luke 10:25-28. All of Luke 10:25-37 is related to the same point. To love God and to love your neighbor is a part of inheriting eternal life. This has not changed after the cross. For loving your neighbor is a part of eternal life after the cross. Loving your brother (loving your neighbor) is walking in the light according to 1 John 2:9-11, and 1 John 1:7 says that by walking in the light, the blood of Jesus cleanses us of all sin. 1 John 3:15 says that hating our brother means we are like a murderer, and no murderer has eternal life abiding in them. 1 John 3:10 says that he that does not righteousness or does not love his brother is not of GOD. Loving the Lord (GOD) is a part of eternal life, too. Paul says if any man loves not the Lord Jesus Christ (Who is God) they are accursed (See 1 Corinthians 16:22).

You can believe what you like, but the Bible says that there is a labour (work) of love.

"Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;" (1 Thessalonians 1:3).

The Bible says there is a work of love.

"For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister." (Hebrews 6:10).

In any event, may you be blessed in the Lord today.

Amen some great points brother. My sheep hear my voice, I know them and they follow.

Bible Highlighter · Oct 14, 2019

BNR32FAN said:
Amen some great points brother. My sheep hear my voice, I know them and they follow.

All glory to the Lord (of course).

Bible Highlighter · Oct 15, 2019

gradyll said:
again romans 4 contradicts what you are saying. Romans four says you can have faith without works and still be saved. I posted it a few times already, in bright bold green letters in as large a font as the forum would let me, yet no response. Now at this point you may say, that I contradict james, and I don't because repentance is not a work. God wants repentance in our lives as christians, not works. I hope you see this crucial difference. Here is a blog post I found online, I don't have much time to debate here unfortunately, but hopefully it will answer some of the questions: I agree with most of it, but also believe that trusting in Christ means repenting of idolatry, in whatever form that means. Here is the post:

"What is Works Righteousness?

Works righteousness is a form of self-righteousness that believes that our salvation can be earned and/or sustained by doing good works. It says we can make ourselves righteous before God by our obedience.

This is epitomized in the New Testament by the Pharisees for whom Jesus reserved his harshest criticism, calling them whitewashed tombs and hypocrites.

The Bible makes it clear that salvation comes through unmerited grace. It does not come because of our works, but because of the work of Jesus Christ on our behalf.

In an attempt to avoid the dangers of works righteousness, many evangelicals go to the other extreme, something theologians call antinomianism. This doctrine argues that if God forgives sins, what is the disadvantage in sinning, or the reward of obedience? If obedience to God’s laws does not save me, it’s just not that important.

I call this the “bus ticket to heaven syndrome”: my salvation is my ticket to heaven, and what I do here while I wait for the bus, good or bad, doesn’t matter.

The Gospel of Grace
Neither works righteousness nor antinomianism represent the gospel of grace taught in the Bible.

Tim Keller explains the difference between these views in this way:

Religion says, “I obey – therefore I’m accepted.” The Gospel says, “I’m accepted – therefore I obey.”

Our obedience to God is critically important. It flows out of our love and gratitude toward God for what he has done on our behalf through Christ.

True Christianity has always maintained that faith necessarily expresses itself in action. During the Protestant Reformation, Martin Luther and John Calvin taught that while good works could not in any way merit salvation, they did prove the genuineness of the individual’s faith.

We are saved by faith alone, but the faith that saves us will never be alone. It will always be accompanied by good works.

These good works are not just what we do at church or acts of evangelism. They should encompass all the work we do, whether it is in our churches, our communities, our families, or our vocations."

above quote from:
Faith and Work Vs. Works Righteousness

I see the same soteriology from many people going door to door, God give us grace initially in salvation but we must work to keep it.

Well, I did answer you before on Romans 4 in post #47, post #48, post #49, and post #50. I would like to add that we can see in Romans 4 itself where Paul alludes to the false belief of "Circumcision Salvationism" (Which was a heresy at the time that said that you had to be circumcised first in order to be saved instead of having faith in Jesus Christ).

9 "Does this blessedness then come upon the circumcised only, or upon the uncircumcised also? For we say that faith was accounted to Abraham for righteousness.
10 How then was it accounted? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised.
11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while still uncircumcised, that he might be the father of all those who believe, though they are uncircumcised, that righteousness might be imputed to them also,
12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also walk in the steps of the faith which our father Abraham had while still uncircumcised.
13 For the promise that he would be the heir of the world was not to Abraham or to his seed through the law, but through the righteousness of faith."
(Romans 4:9-13) (NKJV).

So we see here that Paul is trying to argue that Abraham first believed GOD and then he was circumcised afterwards to show that "circumcision so as to be saved" is not a Scriptural concept. For if somebody believes they have to be saved via by circumcision first, they are then making the Law as the entrance gate and foundation of their faith. I encourage you to read again about this heresy as described at the Jerusalem council (See: Acts of the Apostles 15:1, Acts of the Apostles 15:5, and Acts of the Apostles 15:24).

You said:
However if you study sanctification you see that even sanctification is by faith:

Well, if you were to go back and look at my posts you will see that this was my whole point. One cannot have Sanctification without God's grace through faith in Christ. For Sanctification (Holy Living) flows out of a person having God's grace. I have mentioned to you before several times this by pointing you to Titus 2:11-12, Ephesians 5:25-27, and Romans 5:21, my friend.

You said:
‘to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.’ Acts 26:18 NKJV

Sanctified means, "to be set apart" or to be "made holy." Again, we learn that the reason Christ died for us was for the purpose that he might sanctify and cleanse us with the washing of the water of the Word (Scripture) so that He might present to Himself a church that is holy and without blemish (Ephesians 5:25-27). In Titus 2:11-12 we learn that the grace of GOD teaches us to deny ungodliness, and that we should live righteously and godly in this present world. We know that while grace abounds (Romans 5:20), God's grace also reigns (rules) in righteousness (righteous living) (Romans 5:21).

Bible Highlighter · Oct 15, 2019

gradyll said:
We are not saved by works, that is for sure.

It is true that we are not saved by works (i.e. works alone). We are saved by God's grace through faith, and by Sanctification (Which is the work of God done through you).

You said:
There are over a 100 verses in the Bible the mention donating 50% of our assets to the poor, cutting off our hands, gouging out our eyes, etc.

Well, I believe there is a lot of misunderstanding going by people today in regards to God's commands. I have done an extensive study on the commands within the New Testament. There are approximately 450 explicit commands in the New Covenant, and other commands given to specific individuals or people groups. Some commands deal with salvation (because the Bible mentions that it deals with salvation), and there are other commands that are not tied to salvation. Paul disobeyed the Spirit in going to Jerusalem, but that does not mean Paul was condemned. So not all sins or forms of disobedience leads to spiritual death. But we do not know that there are certain sins that do lead to spiritual death (like not loving GOD - 1 Corinthians 16:22, not loving your brother - 1 John 3:10, 1 John 3:15, murder, hate, theft, coveting, lust, lying, - Galatians 5:19-21, 1 Corinthians 6:9-11, Revelation 21:8, unforgiveness - Matthew 6:15, etc.).

Bible Highlighter · Oct 15, 2019

gradyll said:
There are way more commands than just the ten commandments,

Well, only 9 out of the 10 commandments have been repeated in the New Testament (or New Covenant). The 4th commandment (i.e. the Saturday Sabbath command) is not repeated in the New Testament Scriptures. The ten commandments were given to Israel and not the church. But 9 out of the 10 were given to us believers within the New Covenant by Jesus and His followers. Jesus was even making changes to the Old Law during His earthly ministry and He was primarily teaching New Covenant and not Old Covenant. When Christ died upon the cross, the New Covenant had officially began.

Colossians 2:16-17 says we are not to judge according to Sabbath days, and the dietary laws, etc. because these things were merely a shadow that pointed to the body that cast that shadow (Who is Christ). They were shadows or types pointing to Jesus. Jesus nailed to the cross these ordinances because they were against us (Colossians 2:14). For not keeping the Sabbath meant punishment of physical death (See: Numbers 15:32-36).

BNR32FAN · Oct 15, 2019

Bible Highlighter said:
For Sanctification (Holy Living) flows out of a person having God's grace.

I would add that this is true provided that the individual acts in cooperation with the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Even after being justified we can refuse to comply with His guidance thus becoming sons of disobedience as mentioned in Ephesians 5:1-6.

Bible Highlighter · Oct 15, 2019

gradyll said:
There are way more commands.... loving enemies,

Matthew 5:44 that tells us to love our enemies is 1 out of 4 sub commands as a part of a main command that tells us to "Be ye perfect as the Heavenly Father is perfect." (Matthew 5:48). All four sub commands that make up this main command can be found in Matthew 5:43-48. Is this command a salvation issue? Well, I will admit, it took some digging to find the truth on this through careful study, but "yes"; Loving your enemy is a part of maintaining salvation for the believer in the Sanctification process (After we are saved by God's grace). For Hebrews 12:14 says that we are to "Follow after peace with all men... of which without no man shall see the Lord." Naturally if we are not loving our enemy, we are not making peace with them, and the author of Hebrews says we are to follow after peace with all men and if not, we will not see the Lord.

I don't believe that this is unreasonable or impossible to do; Especially if a person is born of GOD and they have Jesus living on the inside of them to help them.

You said:
forgiving people who have hurt you, or you have no forgiveness yourself.

Right, this one is really clear in the Bible. Jesus says "But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses." (Matthew 6:15).

Again, this is not unreasonable to obey in forgiving others. Even unbelievers are capable of forgiving others.

You said:
I have dozens more laws that we must follow to be saved under the new covenant (not the old). Here they are:
LORDSHIP-INDEX-–UPDATE-5.doc.docx

17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. –Matthew 4:17

“And they went out, and preached that men should repent.” –Mark 6:12

Jesus says, "I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish."
(Luke 13:3) (NKJV).

So yes, repentance is a salvation issue.

By what you stated so far in this thread:

You believe repentance is for salvation but repentance is not a work.
You believe repentance is turning away from sin and towards GOD.
But what do you mean by turning towards GOD?
Does that not include good works?
Does not turning away from sin also include a life that did not obey the Lord's commands to preach the gospel, help the poor, etc.?

I believe the Bible actually teaches us that "repentance" means to seek forgiveness with the LORD, and the "fruits of repentance" is living holy and doing good deeds.

See again my biblical case for repentance in post #53 within this thread.

You said:
"And he came into all the country about Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins;" -Luke 3:3

Water baptism was a temporary Old Covenant ritual. Jesus implied that this ritual would change; For He said, "for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.” (Acts of the Apostles 1:5) (NKJV).

John the Baptist even prophesied this.

"I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire." (Matthew 3:11).

Paul describes this change more clearly with those at Ephesus:

1 "And it happened, while Apollos was at Corinth, that Paul, having passed through the upper regions, came to Ephesus. And finding some disciples
2 he said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?”
So they said to him, “We have not so much as heard whether there is a Holy Spirit.”
3 And he said to them, “Into what then were you baptized?”
So they said, “Into John’s baptism.”
4 Then Paul said, “John indeed baptized with a baptism of repentance, saying to the people that they should believe on Him who would come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.”
5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
6 And when Paul had laid hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke with tongues and prophesied.
7 Now the men were about twelve in all."
(Acts of the Apostles 19:1-7) (NKJV).

To learn more about water baptism vs. Spirit baptism, check out this article here:

What is True Baptism?
(Please take note that I do not believe in their view of Soteriology, I merely agree with the overall argument that water baptism is not for salvation and it was an OT ritual.).

Bible Highlighter · Oct 15, 2019

BNR32FAN said:
I would add that this is true provided that the individual acts in cooperation with the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Even after being justified we can refuse to comply with His guidance thus becoming sons of disobedience as mentioned in Ephesians 5:1-6.

I agree. But the Spirit acts in accordance with God's Word (Scripture), as well. There are many NT commands that the Lord desires for us to obey. These are a part of God's will for our life. Granted, it takes careful study and prayer to learn to what NT commands are applicable for us personally. We also must act of glorifying God's grace and mercy, as well. For without God's grace, there is no salvation.

BNR32FAN · Oct 15, 2019

gradyll said:
We are not saved by works, that is for sure. There are over a 100 verses in the Bible the mention donating 50% of our assets to the poor, cutting off our hands, gouging out our eyes, etc.

"43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: 44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. 45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: 46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. 47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: 48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. 49 For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt. 50 Salt is good: but if the salt have lost his saltness, wherewith will ye season it? Have salt in yourselves, and have peace one with another. -Mark 9:43-50

There are way more commands than just the ten commandments, loving enemies, forgiving people who have hurt you, or you have no forgiveness yourself. I have dozens more laws that we must follow to be saved under the new covenant (not the old). Here they are:
LORDSHIP-INDEX-–UPDATE-5.doc.docx

Now again, please explain salvation in light of those verses. Are we truly saved by doing all those things? Or did Jesus not really mean what He said, and if He didn't really mean what He said, was He lying, or deceiving or both? Now at this point, granted you have actually read the document above (if you haven't do it now), at this point you should be broken, and realize. "Who can be saved?" No one can do all of those laws, and commands and be saved. And that is the proper take on the matter. That means that the law has done it's job. See the law is the school master to bring us to Christ. That is it's only purpose. Once we realize that we cannot do those things, the old testament law of moses, the ten commands, or the new testament laws and commands, none of them can we do...... we realize that salvation must not be on our own merit. It's a free gift. The other thing that I conclude when I read those passages, is that you cannot simply believe in Jesus's existence and be saved. Satan believes in Jesus's existence. Satan believes in the resurrection of Christ, Satan believes in the diety of Christ, and the Trinity. Satan in fact has perfect soteriology, end times theories, and theology. Yet he is not saved. So what does it make us if we simply believe Jesus existed ourselves? It makes us twice the sons of hell. That is if we don't really want christianity for it's true purpose. Christianity is not to make us saved merely. To sit on a cloud with a harp. But it is to understand and know God for who He really is, to see Him in His glory one day, and to love Him for all He is worth. For only He is worthy to break the seal. Salvation is to bring us victory over our sin, now, here in this life. Then in that victory we can testify of God's power to others. Thus incorporating eternal rewards for our honest witness and testimony. But to simply say, hey that crusade was awesome, I prayed the prayer, got the Bible, now lets snort some lines. That is not Christianity. Christianity is leaving the old stuff behind. You are forgiven of your sin, past, present and future. Now go and sin no more. You are not saved by works at this point, if you believe that, go read the lordship index again (right now), then come back. Now have you performed a donation of 50% of your assets to the poor? As required in the gospels? Have you forgiven everyone who ever cut you off, cursed you our, broke up with you, divorced you, or unfriended you? As the gospels require? Have you cut out your eyes, when you browse that girls profile on instagram? If you haven't you are not doing it right. Those are literal God's honest commands in the Bible. Now if you are not eyeless, houseless, and forgiving....then you are not doing the works righteousness correctly. You need to reread the gospels. See remember when I went through a nervous breakdown, I read all the gospels backward and forward, and highlighted every law and command in blue. And highlighted every free grace verse in green. There was 15 verses about grace through faith, and over 100 on repenting of sin and believing in Jesus. Yes we won't do it perfectly, but we are still required to repent of our sins. Now if you think repentance is a work, go back and re read all those commands of the new testament. loving your enemy, donating to the poor, one guy had to give everything he owned to the poor, and follow Jesus. Why did he have to do that and no one else? Think about it that way. Because we are required to sacrifice. But that sacrifice has no merit in itself. It's is God's work in our life. That is why in romans 4:5 it says " But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness," And ephesians 2:8-9 says :"For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast."

“And He said to him, " ' YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.' This is the great and foremost commandment. The second is like it, ' YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.' On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets."”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭22:37-40‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Bible Highlighter · Oct 15, 2019

gradyll said:
I have dozens more laws that we must follow to be saved under the new covenant (not the old). Here they are:
LORDSHIP-INDEX-–UPDATE-5.doc.docx

DONATE 50% OF OUR ASSETS TO POOR AS NEEDED FOR SALVATION:

7 Then said he to the multitude that came forth to be baptized of him, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come? 8 Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham. 9 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: every tree therefore which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 10 And the people asked him, saying, What shall we do then? 11 He answereth and saith unto them, He that hath two coats, let him impart to him that hath none; and he that hath meat, let him do likewise. 12 Then came also publicans to be baptized, and said unto him, Master, what shall we do? 13 And he said unto them, Exact no more than that which is appointed you. -Luke 3:7-13

Notice that this passage condemns "Belief Alone-ism." The Jews were saying to themselves, "We have Abraham as our father." (Luke 3:8) (NKJV). But John the baptist was telling them bring forth fruits (fruits of repentance = good deeds) worthy of repentance (repentance = seeking forgiveness with the LORD). John the baptist warns these Jews that the axe is laid root to the tree and it is ready to be chopped down and thrown into the fire. They are the trees. If they do not bring forth fruit, they will be cut down and thrown into the lake of fire. Jesus says a similar thing in John 15 (See: John 15:1-6).

So what were these Jews not doing that John was telling them to do?
John the Baptist is telling them to help the poor by giving away their extra coat, or if they have meat. I believe this is a general command in helping the poor here, because there is no command that says that not giving away 50% of our possessions equates with condemnation. John is basically saying that if you see somebody in need, give to them of your resources (of what you have extra of). For back then, folks were more likely to encounter people in great need. Today, people are in cars and they drive on highways, and they miss seeing those people living underneath the highways. Back then, you encountered the poor more. Yes, I know some areas here in America are different, and so it depends on where you live (Whereby you may see a lot more of the poor). But if you are in sight or view of those who need help, and you have the extra resources to help, then God's love compels us to want to help them. We want to give away our extra coat, our extra food, money, etc. This is what John is saying. If this was not the case, then the disciples would not be allowed to own their own houses and they should be forced to live in tents or temporary cheap dwellings. For the asset of a home far exceed the issue involving two coats.

But yes, if you see somebody who is freezing on the side of the road and you know you have an extra coat at home (and or you can afford to buy another one), give him your coat. It is not that hard to do. You can give money or food to those you happen to encounter on the side of the road. Buy them something at McDonalds. It is not hard or impossible to do. But a command that says give away 50% of all your assets? That is not what John said. Yes, Zacchaeus gave away half of his goods to the poor and Jesus said salvation had came to his house, but Zacchaeus was a rich tax collector. His was giving away his abundance because he was rich or wealthy. Jesus also did not tell Zacchaeus to give away half of his goods, either. It was not a command. Zacchaeus gave it away of his own compulsion in the joy of his salvation.

Also, John the baptist told the tax collectors to not require more from people than what they really owed. For the tax collectors would cheat the people and take more money from the people. John is telling them to deal fairly with them and not take more money from them. This is reasonable to do if we were in a profession like the tax collector.

Bible Highlighter · Oct 15, 2019

gradyll said:
I have dozens more laws that we must follow to be saved under the new covenant (not the old). Here they are:
LORDSHIP-INDEX-–UPDATE-5.doc.docx

INVOLVING SELF MUTILATION TO INHIBIT VARIOUS LUSTS AS NEEDED FOR SALVATION FROM HELL-

43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: 44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. 45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: 46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. 47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: 48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. 49 For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt. 50 Salt is good: but if the salt have lost his saltness, wherewith will ye season it? Have salt in yourselves, and have peace one with anothe. -Mark 9:43-50

27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: 28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart. 29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. –Matthew 5:7

This is why we have to read Scripture as a whole, and we are not to read verses or passages in a vacuum, my friend; For in isolating a text, we can easily come to the wrong conclusion on things. You think these verses mean what exactly? How do you apply them to your life? Are they simply to be ignored? Surely not. Jesus is clearly talking metaphorically here in regards to taking your eye out and or cutting off your hand. How so? Well, we are told to love our neighbor as ourselves (Mark 12:31). If we love our neighbor as ourselves, then we should help in taking out their eyes and chopping off their hands every time we see them lust after a woman or everytime we catch them indulging in inappropriate content. But Jesus says we are to love our enemies (Matthew 5:44), and we are to turn the other cheek (Matthew 5:39), and we are to make peace with all men (of which no man shall see the Lord) (Hebrews 12:14). Granted, this does not mean we preach a love gospel to them that says they can sin and still be saved, but it means we should be loving with them and we should reconcile with them (if they have harsh feelings towards us). Anyways, Jesus is telling us to do whatever it takes in removing yourself from situations that cause you to lust after women. If it means cutting of the internet access, or changing jobs, or going to places that are less likely to have attractive women, or shopping late at night when less people are around, then do so. It also involves praying, too. We can pray so as not to be be led into temptation, as well. For Jesus taught this to His disciples (See: Matthew 26:41).

Bible Highlighter · Oct 15, 2019

Cutting off your hands (in lusting after a woman) can be replaced by doing something good with those hands as an alternative instead.

For example:
"Let him who stole steal no longer, but rather let him labor, working with his hands what is good, that he may have something to give him who has need." (Ephesians 4:28).

As for the eyes:
"Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth." (Colossians 3:2).

"Let us lay aside every weight, and sin which does so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith" (Hebrews 12:1-2).

Bible Highlighter · Oct 15, 2019

gradyll said:
I have dozens more laws that we must follow to be saved under the new covenant (not the old). Here they are:
LORDSHIP-INDEX-–UPDATE-5.doc.docx

!!!SELL EVERYTHING YOU HAVE AND DONATE AS NEEDED FOR SALVATION:

17 "And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?
18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.
19 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother.
20 And he answered and said unto him,
Master, all these have I observed from my youth.
21 Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.
22 And he was sad at that saying, and went away grieved: for he had great possessions.
23 And Jesus looked round about, and saith unto his disciples, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God!
24 And the disciples were astonished at his words. But Jesus answereth again, and saith unto them, Children, how hard is it for them that trust in riches to enter into the kingdom of God!
25 It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
26 And they were astonished out of measure, saying among themselves, Who then can be saved?
27 And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible." -Mark 10:17-27

Well, before you were having a problem with the giving away of 50% of one's assets, and now you are saying that the Bible is giving a contradictory message in saying that we have to give away 100% of all our assets. So which position are you taking? Are we to give away 50% of our assets or 100% of our assets? You cannot do both. Besides, the disciples owned homes. Just do a keyword search on the word "house" at BlueLetterBible.org; In addition, Zacchaeus sold only half of his goods to the poor, and Jesus said salvation had come to his house that day. So obviously this was a unique situation with the rich man and the 12 disciples. I believe the 12 disciples were given special instructions that were temporary. How so? Read this article here:

Is giving up all material possessions a requirement for being a true Christian?

Bible Highlighter · Oct 15, 2019

gradyll said:
I have dozens more laws that we must follow to be saved under the new covenant (not the old). Here they are:
LORDSHIP-INDEX-–UPDATE-5.doc.docx

!!!ONLY POOR PEOPLE HAVE THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN:

"Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven."
–Matthew 5:3

Notice that the words "only poor people have the kingdom of heaven" is not mentioned in Matthew 5:3. You are adding the words "only" to the verse when it is not there. Also, notice the verse says that they are "poor in spirit" and they are not poor financially. A person who is poor in spirit is humble. Granted, I am not saying believers should be wealthy or rich, I see the early church more as minimalists who live on average incomes or less to spread God's Word and to help the poor. But that is the impression I get when I look at the lives of the disciples overall. But make no mistake, the Bible warns against being rich in 1 Timothy 6. We know rich people are those who do not have to work anymore and they have no worry for money. They have an an over abundance of cash flow that allows them to put treasures here upon this Earth (Whereby Jesus said do not put your treasures here upon this Earth but put them up in Heaven where moth and dust does not corrupt). For Jesus says where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

Bible Highlighter · Oct 15, 2019

gradyll said:
I have dozens more laws that we must follow to be saved under the new covenant (not the old). Here they are:
LORDSHIP-INDEX-–UPDATE-5.doc.docx

!!!FORGIVE OTHERS, NOT JUDGING, VARIOUS PACIFISM & NON RESISTENCE AS NEEDED FOR SALVATION (FORGIVENESS MUST COME FROM WITHIN HEART):

35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses. –Matthew 18:35

14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: 15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses. –Matthew 6:14-15

20 And in the morning, as they passed by, they saw the fig tree dried up from the roots. 21 And Peter calling to remembrance saith unto him, Master, behold, the fig tree which thou cursedst is withered away. 22 And Jesus answering saith unto them, Have faith in God. 23 For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith. 24 Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them. 25 And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses. 26 But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses. –Mark 11:20-26

27 But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you, 28 Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you. 29 And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloke forbid not to take thy coat also. 30 Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again. 31 And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise. 32 For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them. 33 And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same. 34 And if ye lend to them of whom ye hope to receive, what thank have ye? for sinners also lend to sinners, to receive as much again. 35 But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil. 36 Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful. 37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven: 38 Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again. –Luke 6:27-38

I already addressed these issues in post #131.
My guess is that you feel that it is impossible to do these righteous things.
If this is so, Jesus said,

"With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible." (Matthew 19:26).

Bible Highlighter · Oct 17, 2019

gradyll said:
I have dozens more laws that we must follow to be saved under the new covenant (not the old). Here they are:
LORDSHIP-INDEX-–UPDATE-5.doc.docx

!!!PERFECT OBSERVANCE OF EVERY LAW; IN ORDER TO OBEY BETTER THAN PROPHETS AND = IN ORDER TO BE PERFECT FOR SALVATION:

19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven. -Matthew 5:19-20

Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect1 -Matthew 5:48

39 And he spake a parable unto them, Can the blind lead the blind? shall they not both fall into the ditch? 40 The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master. -Luke 6:39

I am not sure if you wrote the above captions or conclusions on these verses, or if it was the Lordship Doctrine Proponents; But in either case, the descriptive title is wrong. I skipped ahead in the document so as to reply to this because it is exceptionally erroneous.

As for Matthew 5:19-20:

Well, Matthew 5:19-20 does not mention anything about perfectly keeping God's laws otherwise you will perish or fall into everlasting punishment. It merely says that those break the least of the Lord's commands and teach men to break them, will be called "least" in the Kingdom of Heaven. Meaning, the man of GOD will not desire for another to disobey GOD even in the slightest ways. This is not really about salvation for breaking the least of God's commands, but it is about having the wrong mindset or wrong teaching concerning them. Even if certain commands did not lead to spiritual death (1 John 5:17), or everlasting punishment if they were broken, the righteous believer will still tell others to obey them and not use that as an excuse to break God's laws (Just because they have God's grace).

As for Matthew 5:48, it is in reference to doing four things and not perfection in general.

(a) Love your enemies,
(b) Bless them that curse you,
(c) Do good to them that hate you, and
(d) Pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you.

44 "But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven" (Matthew 5:44-45).

In fact, re-read Matthew 5:43-48 several times, and it will become clear to you.

As for Luke 6:39: Jesus did not mention that if you are not perfect as He is, you are not saved. He did not say that. Granted, this does not mean we are to forego in living holy and or righteously. We are told by Paul, Let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of GOD (2 Corinthians 7:1). When I talk with many today, I do not get the impression that they believe the words of Paul here in 2 Corinthians 7:1.

Is salvation by grace alone? Or faith alone? Or grace through faith? or by faith plus repentance?

How are we saved.

salvation by grace alone (sola gracia)

salvation by faith alone (sola fide)

salvation by grace through faith

Saved by turning from our sins and trusting in Christ's salvation

saved by works, merit, obedience, performance morally speaking, plus faith

saved by works of the law, plus faith

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

He’s a Way of life

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

He’s a Way of life

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

He’s a Way of life

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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