Taxing the rich to help poor is theft

rjs330 · Oct 16, 2019

RaymondG said:
I have no problem with that.... Do you think it would be ok for me to try and become rich....so that I can be taxed more and, thereby, help the poor more?

To whom much is given, much is expected. If God is good to us and blesses us then it would be wise to use that to bless others.

rjs330 · Oct 16, 2019

dogs4thewin said:
no we should not all seek to become rich. Not everyone can handle it.

The Bible tells us what to seek. It tells us to seek first the kingdom of God. It tells us to seek righteousness. It tells is to seek justice and mercy. It never tells us to seek wealth. Wealth is a byproduct of hard work, mixed with talent and opportunities that God has provided to us. As believers we consider wealth a blessing from God, who could remove our wealth as fast as he gives it.

dogs4thewin · Oct 16, 2019

rjs330 said:
The Bible tells us what to seek. It tells us to seek first the kingdom of God. It tells us to seek righteousness. It tells is to seek justice and mercy. It never tells us to seek wealth. Wealth is a byproduct of hard work, mixed with talent and opportunities that God has provided to us. As believers we consider wealth a blessing from God, who could remove our wealth as fast as he gives it.

but there is nothing wrong with working hard and as a result getting more money.

Fantine · Oct 16, 2019

A world of 7.1 billion people is very different from the Biblical world. Those who sincerely want to do good and discern God's will will not be slavishly tied to a book written for a completely different audience. The Bible tells us to be good stewards of the Earth and the riches that God has given us. Are we good stewards when millions are starving in Africa while we in the United States have more than enough? Andy yet due to great distance we don't have the ability to help them directly. We can however support good governmental practices which will help us all to be good stewards of God's Earth and not be like the man who stockpiled all of his grain even though he was surrounded by need.

rjs330 · Oct 17, 2019

GoldenBoy89 said:
Where do they say not to?

Paul tells that each of us should decide how much to give. People want to claim that the Bible teaches that we should force people to give. It doesn't.

Speedwell · Oct 17, 2019

rjs330 said:
Paul tells that each of us should decide how much to give. People want to claim that the Bible teaches that we should force people to give. It doesn't.

In this country we decide together how much to give.

RaymondG · Oct 17, 2019

rjs330 said:
To whom much is given, much is expected. If God is good to us and blesses us then it would be wise to use that to bless others.

I think you have it backwards. When we bless others, God will bless us. It is unwise to ask for blessings first.......and equally unwise to believe that others, who seem to have more than one, should be force to provide help you arent providing.....as this only ensures that they will always have more than you.

rjs330 · Oct 17, 2019

Ricky M said:
From the NT:

Matthew 4:9-10 and he said to Him, "All these things I will give You, if You fall down and worship me." Then Jesus said to him, "Go, Satan! For it is written, ‘You shall worship the Lord your God and serve Him only’”.

Matthew 6:24 No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and wealth.

Matthew 13:22 And the one on whom seed was sown among the thorns, this is the man who hears the word, and the worry of the world and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful.

Matthew 19:21-22Jesus said to him, "If you wish to be complete, go and sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me." But when the young man heard this statement, he went away grieving; for he was one who owned much property.

Mark 4:19 but the worries of the world, and the deceitfulness of riches, and the desires for other things enter in and choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful.

Mark 10:21-22 Looking at him, Jesus felt a love for him and said to him, "One thing you lack: go and sell all you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me." But at these words he was saddened, and he went away grieving, for he was one who owned much property.

Luke 6:20 “Blessed are you who are poor, for yours is the kingdom of God. 21 Blessed are you who hunger now, for you will be satisfied. Blessed are you who weep now, for you will laugh. 22 Blessed are you when people hate you, when they exclude you and insult you and reject your name as evil, because of the Son of Man. 23 “Rejoice in that day and leap for joy, because great is your reward in heaven. For that is how their ancestors treated the prophets. 24 “But woe to you who are rich, for you have already received your comfort. 25 Woe to you who are well fed now, for you will go hungry. Woe to you who laugh now, for you will mourn and weep. 26 Woe to you when everyone speaks well of you, for that is how their ancestors treated the false prophets.

Luke 8:14 The seed which fell among the thorns, these are the ones who have heard, and as they go on their way they are choked with worries and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to maturity.

Luke 12:13-21 13 Someone in the crowd said to him, “Teacher, tell my brother to divide the inheritance with me.”14 Jesus replied, “Man, who appointed me a judge or an arbiter between you?” 15 Then he said to them, “Watch out! Be on your guard against all kinds of greed; life does not consist in an abundance of possessions.” 16 And he told them this parable: “The ground of a certain rich man yielded an abundant harvest. 17 He thought to himself, ‘What shall I do? I have no place to store my crops.’ 18 “Then he said, ‘This is what I’ll do. I will tear down my barns and build bigger ones, and there I will store my surplus grain. 19 And I’ll say to myself, “You have plenty of grain laid up for many years. Take life easy; eat, drink and be merry.”’ 20 “But God said to him, ‘You fool! This very night your life will be demanded from you. Then who will get what you have prepared for yourself?’ 21 “This is how it will be with whoever stores up things for themselves but is not rich toward God.”

Luke 14: 12Then Jesus said to the man who had invited Him, “When you host a dinner or a banquet, do not invite your friends or brothers or relatives or rich neighbors. Otherwise, they may invite you in return, and you will be repaid.13But when you host a banquet, invite the poor, the crippled, the lame, and the blind, 14and you will be blessed. Since they cannot repay you, you will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous.”15When one of those reclining with Him heard this, he said to Jesus, “Blessed is everyone who will eat at the feast in the kingdom of God.” 16But Jesus replied, “A certain man prepared a great banquet and invited many guests. 17When it was time for the banquet, he sent his servant to tell those who had been invited, ‘Come, for everything is now ready.’ 18But one after another they all began to make excuses. The first one said, ‘I have bought a field and I need to go see it. Please excuse me.’ 19Another said, ‘I have bought five yoke of oxen and I am going to try them out. Please excuse me.’ 20Still another said, ‘I have married a wife, so I cannot come.’ 21The servant returned and reported all this to his master. Then the owner of the house became angry and said to his servant, ‘Go out quickly into the streets and alleys of the city, and bring in the poor, the crippled, the blind, and the lame.’ 22‘Sir,’ the servant replied, ‘what you ordered has been done, and there is still room.’ 23So the master told his servant, ‘Go out to the highways and hedges and compel them to come in, so that my house will be full. 24For I tell you, not one of those men who were invited will taste my banquet.’”

Luke 16:13 No servant can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or else he will be devoted to one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and wealth

Luke 16:19-21 Now there was a rich man, and he habitually dressed in purple and fine linen, joyously living in splendor every day. And a poor man named Lazarus was laid at his gate, covered with sores, and longing to be fed with the crumbs which were falling from the rich man's table; besides, even the dogs were coming and licking his sores … 25 But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony

Luke 18:22-23 When Jesus heard this, He said to him, "One thing you still lack; sell all that you possess and distribute it to the poor, and you shall have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me." But when he had heard these things, he became very sad, for he was extremely rich.

Luke 21:1 As Jesus looked up, he saw the rich putting their gifts into the temple treasury. 2 He also saw a poor widow put in two very small copper coins. 3 “Truly I tell you,” he said, “this poor widow has put in more than all the others. 4 All these people gave their gifts out of their wealth; but she out of her poverty put in all she had to live on.”

Hebrews 13:5 Keep your lives free from the love of money and be content with what you have, for God has said: “Never will I leave you, never will I forsake you.”

1 Timothy 3:3 not addicted to wine or pugnacious, but gentle, peaceable, free from the love of money.

1 Timothy 6:8-9 If we have food and covering, with these we shall be content. But those who want to get rich fall into temptation and a snare and many foolish and harmful desires which plunge men into ruin and destruction.

1 Timothy 6:10 For the love of money is a root of all sorts of evil, and some by longing for it have wandered away from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs.

1 Timothy 6:17 Instruct those who are rich in this present world not to be conceited or to fix their hope on the uncertainty of riches, but on God, who richly supplies us with all things to enjoy.

James 1:9The brother in humble circumstances should exult in his high position. 10But the one who is rich should exult in his low position, because he will pass away like a flower of the field. 11For the sun rises with scorching heat and withers the plant; its flower falls and its beauty is lost. So too, the rich man will fade away in the midst of his pursuits.

James 2:6 But you have dishonored the poor man. Is it not the rich who oppress you and personally drag you into court?

Rev 3:17 Because thou say, I am rich, and have gotten riches, and have need of nothing; and know not that thou art the wretched one and miserable and poor and blind and naked:

Rev 3:18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold refined by fire, that thou mayest become rich; and white garments, that thou mayest clothe thyself, and that the shame of thy nakedness be not made manifest; and eye salve to anoint thine eyes, that thou mayest see.

James 5:1 Now listen, you rich people, weep and wail because of the misery that is coming on you. 2 Your wealth has rotted, and moths have eaten your clothes. 3 Your gold and silver are corroded. Their corrosion will testify against you and eat your flesh like fire. You have hoarded wealth in the last days. 4 Look! The wages you failed to pay the workers who mowed your fields are crying out against you. The cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord Almighty. 5 You have lived on earth in luxury and self-indulgence. You have fattened yourselves in the day of slaughter. 6 You have condemned and murdered the innocent one, who was not opposing you.

All wonderful scriptures warning us of the deceitfulness of riches. As I have posted already the Word of God tells us what we should be seeking and wealth is not on the list.

However, I caution people not to use those scriptures to try and say that the Bible authorizes us to force people, believers and unbelievers alike to give away their money to others.

rjs330 · Oct 17, 2019

dogs4thewin said:
but there is nothing wrong with working hard and as a result getting more money.

Not at all. The Bible tells us that we SHOULD work hard. It also tells us the worker is worthy of his wages. It just warns us to be careful not to seek wealth for wealths sake and be careful of wealth as it can become our god or take us away from depending on God.

durangodawood · Oct 17, 2019

rjs330 said:
All wonderful scriptures warning us of the deceitfulness of riches. As I have posted already the Word of God tells us what we should be seeking and wealth is not on the list.

However, I caution people not to use those scriptures to try and say that the Bible authorizes us to force people, believers and unbelievers alike to give away their money to others.

I would say that, according to the Bible, Jesus specifically does authorize govt taxation.

Then, as now, taxation is a redistribution of wealth to various ends that you may or may not agree with.

Albion · Oct 17, 2019

rjs330 said:
To whom much is given, much is expected. If God is good to us and blesses us then it would be wise to use that to bless others.

Can't argue with that. Of course it has nothing to do with taxation, which is the topic of this thread.

ArmenianJohn · Oct 17, 2019

dogs4thewin said:
Is it though? or is the thing to do to help them without force of law?

The Bible says it's the government's right and choice to tax and then spend those taxes as the government. It's not disputable. People who call it theft can only do so from an anti-Biblical perspective.

rjs330 · Oct 17, 2019

Speedwell said:
In this country we decide together how much to give.

Right that's a representative government. And being as we live under such the government gets to decide how much we pay in taxes.

I just don't want people trying to claim there is some sort of BIBLICAL mandate to make people give away their money. Like Jesus expects or commanded us to go around and take people's money and give it to others.

These are two different things.

Albion · Oct 17, 2019

durangodawood said:
I would say that, according to the Bible, Jesus specifically does authorize govt taxation.

There are all sorts of things in life that are good in principle but cease to be good if misused or taken to an extreme.

I would hope that everyone could agree to that at least.

Albion · Oct 17, 2019

rjs330 said:
Right that's a representative government. And being as we live under such the government gets to decide how much we pay in taxes.

Maybe, but that of course has nothing to do with Jesus's sayings.

grasping the after wind · Oct 17, 2019

durangodawood said:
I think that if taxation was "theft" Jesus would have spoken against it when he took on that topic specifically.

Maybe contemporary morality has advanced beyond where Jesus was, and we should now consider taxation as theft?

Taxation is not theft.
Taking one person's money and then giving it to another is theft.
Taxation is an exchange of services.
A person is taxed and in return receives the benefit of an ordered society by the government spending that money to purchase the labor of people to keep order. If instead of purchasing labor or products to fulfill its mission, government gifts people with money getting nothing tangible in return then that is perpetrating a fraud on the taxpayer and essentially stealing the taxpayer's money. Money the taxpayer would then have had available to, if they so chose to, help the poor rather than to give the poor gifts in order to keep them poor. As Christ addressed taxation directly by saying give unto Caesar that which is Caesar's, I cannot see how anyone can consider giving to Caesar for Caesar's purposes a fulfillment of anything that Christ commanded of us other than to simply pay taxes.

Should the rich help the poor?
If the particular rich person we are talking about is Christian, the answer is yes. If not a Christian then I leave it up to their discretion to decide.

Should Christians advocate that, because their religion says for them to help the poor, the secular government should force all of the rich, no matter their religious beliefs or lack thereof, to fund government programs that simply give things to the poor without empowering them in any way to become self sufficient?
For the life of me I cannot see why .

Albion · Oct 17, 2019

grasping the after wind said:
Taxation is not theft.
Taking one person's money and then giving it to another is theft.

In essence, that is just what taxation is.

A person is taxed and in return receives the benefit of an ordered society by the government spending that money to purchase the labor of people to keep order.

However, it is not that simple. Just as with many other things in life, it matters how and for whom and under what circumstances. Nor, for that matter, does the Constitution provide for the government to confiscate as much of ones possession as it wants...just like that. No.

As Christ addressed taxation directly by saying give unto Caesar that which is Caesar's, I cannot see how anyone can consider giving to Caesar for Caesar's purposes a fulfillment of anything that Christ commanded of us other than to simply pay taxes.

The passage, that comment by Jesus, isn't a commentary about taxation anyway.

It is another example of him being challenged by someone seeking to see if Jesus was going to be putting himself into some kind of bind by his answer. His answer is saying to stay focused on his teachings.

As for the taxation question, he is not going to bring politics into the matter. If the government says to pay those taxes, pay them, that's all. He neither condemns taxation nor the Roman government; but he also doesn't flatter the government with his reply, either.

Should the rich help the poor?

Yes. However, here we are discussing taxation.

rjs330 · Oct 17, 2019

RaymondG said:
I think you have it backwards. When we bless others, God will bless us. It is unwise to ask for blessings first.......and equally unwise to believe that others, who seem to have more than one, should be force to provide help you arent providing.....as this only ensures that they will always have more than you.

Actually it's both equally. When we give it is given back to us. Whether we give a little or a lot. But when God has blessed us with much, then he expects much from us. Some are given more and some are given less. It's what we do with what we are given that counts. And when we do give out of a cheerful heart God gives back to us. It may not be more money, but it will be is some blessings that will be awesome!

rjs330 · Oct 17, 2019

Albion said:
Can't argue with that. Of course it has nothing to do with taxation, which is the topic of this thread.

Right! And the Bible doesn't command us believers to take from some and give to others.

It does tell us to obey the laws. So we pay and absolutely should pay our taxes. BUT, don't use scripture to support the DEMAND of taking of people's money to give to others as a SCRIPTURAL mandate.

It's a matter of public policy and not a SCRIPTURAL command.

rjs330 · Oct 17, 2019

Albion said:
Maybe, but that of course has nothing to do with Jesus's sayings.

Of course and thats been my point all along.

Taxing the rich to help poor is theft

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