Future New World Order One World Government...in the Bible?

Is a future NWO biblical?

  • No

    Votes: 13 37.1%
  • Yes

    Votes: 20 57.1%
  • I don't know what that is

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Other

    Votes: 2 5.7%

  • Total voters
    35

jerry kelso

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jerry,



Nothing to do with pretrib rapture.



You should listen to your own brethren.

Dr. Thomas Ice, Executive Director, Pre-Trib Research Center:

"
Irenaeus
Some have thought that Irenaeus (c. 180) could be a pre-trib rapture statement since he actually speaks of the rapture: “the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this [the tribulation],” as noted below:

And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, “There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be.” For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption.[7]

However, the very next statement speaks of believers in the tribulation. When taken within the context of all of Irenaeus’ writings on these subjects, it appears that he was not teaching pretribulationism.
"



Bogus unless accompanied by a link to quote and source of quote.



Correct. "we wouldn't taken to the Lord".



Bogus unless accompanied by a link to quote and source of quote. Nothing to do with pretrib rapture.



Bogus unless accompanied by a link to quote and source of quote. Nothing to do with pretrib rapture.



Then why did you make a bogus claim about Barnabas in your post 128?

Where did I say that Barnabas wrote Hebrews?



All of these wrote during the Reformation era prior to the appearance of dispensational modernism. They were unanimous in declaring the apostate papacy to be the antichrist of that era, under which the true Church was suffering.

Their guffaws would have been long and loud at any suggestion of a pretrib rapture which had never occurred.

jgr,

1. I see you understand nothing much about dispensationalism and immanency concerning the rapture or the imminent return of Christ.

2. Most pre-trinkets would disagree and I read the next statement and all it talked about was the recapitulation of the nature of the corruption of the Antichrist.
The snatching away is pre-trib terminology such as 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 and then he quotes Matthew 24:21 which is about the time of Jacob ‘s trouble which is tribulation separate from the present church.

2. New Advent and Freedom watchers. Not that it will make any difference for you will cry wolf and scream heretics.

3. We would be taken to the Lord is what it is supposed to be, got in a hurry.

4. New Advent and Freedom Watcher and Beginning To End.

5. Nothing bogus. Barnabas preached with Paul and Paul certainly did not believe in post rapture 2 Thessalonians 2:1-2.

6. I never said that you said Barnabas wrote Hebrews. I said scholars could not really substantiate he wrote it. My personal opinion I said was Paul.
Just by these kind of replies sure gives the perception that you don’t really pay close enough attention or you are trying so hard to prove your doctrinal stance instead of trying to search and find the real truth.

7. The Bible shows a pre-trib rapture 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17; Revelation 4:1 and the Jewish persecution of the time of Jacob’s trouble Jeremiah 30:7; Daniel 12:1; Matthew 24:21 etc.
It shows the Jews will have a nation called Israel like today. The difference is that they won’t be backslidden Isaiah 2; 9:6-7; Jeremiah 31:31-34, Joel 2; Ezekiel 36:25-29; 37:16-28; Luke 1 with Zachariah’s prophecy, Luke 2 and Simeon and Anna as well.
It also shows they will be at the head of the nations Isaiah 2:2-4 which will be the earthly Jerusalem.
David will Be King Over Israel Ezekiel 37 verse 20 I believe.
And Christ over the nations from the same capital, Jerusalem Zechariah 14 if I recall.

8. There has always been dispensational teachings and concepts from the time God drafted the redemption plan.
Paul said he was given the dispensation of the grace of God.
I believe in being careful of making doctrines out of perceptions like many do such as the spiritual jew theory.
But there is no comparison between the two.
The spiritual Jew context was getting on the physical Jew that was disobedient and blasphemous towards the gentiles.
The real physical Jew is one who is truly saved inwardly which was always the case for the law could not save anyone.
It was not for the physical Jew who was not truly saved.
What is interesting to to not is that in vs. 28-29 the uncircumcision that represented the heathen gentile is not mentioned.
Because God has never been a respect of persons he has always made a way for a gentile to be saved whether in the Old or New Testaments. Compare Ezekiel 18:20-32 with Romans 2:25-27.
So the context doesn’t warrant a whole new doctrine called the spiritual Jew theory.

9. A dispensation is a stewardship of an economy. This denotes a caretaker to take care of an economy.
A covenant is an agreement or contract between men, or between men and God.
God made covenants and originate with him. Some are unconditional promises and are usually based on fulfillment of certain conditions. They all relate to the earth and we’re given to individual and representative men and some have been fulfilled and some are still future.
There were many stewards in each covenant.
Many believe that the New Covenant has not happened yet. It’s for Israel to receive their land (Matthew 5:5)
The promise is in Jeremiah 31:31-34; Hebrews 8:7-13.
It’s unconditional and covers the Millennium and the New Heaven and the New Earth. It is based on the finished work of Christ.
It has nothing to do with the church.

10. The truth is that the New Covenant was made in Jeremiah 31:31 with the house of Israel and the house of Judah not according to the covenant that he made in Egypt.
The church was not in effect in Egypt and is not the same kind of physical nation as Israel and Judah.
Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Hebrews 8:8-12 are the same New Covenant that will be made with the real Israel Nd Judah, not the church.
That doesn’t mean the New Covenant wasn’t the finished work of Christ because Hebrews 8:6-7 shows this to be true.
So there is only one New Covenant which happened at Calvary.
But to stay true to context Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Hebrews:8-12 specifically is the New Covenant to the houses of Israel and Judah.
The reason is so God can fulfill his unconditional promises of the Abrahamic and Davidic Covenants.
The only way to believe otherwise is to spiritualize scriptures and their context and not believe that God’s Unconditional covenants that are specifically to them is not true or it ended at Calvary etc. and the church has been amen their place which is replacement theology.

11. It took the reformationists of the 15th and 16th century and the revivalists of the 17th and 18th centuries to remove the crooked and corrupt Catholic Church who were legalistic and power hunger mixed in with the government.
The Catholic Church as a whole we’re Antichrists but not the Antichrist of Revelation 13 for that one will be a man, the son of perdition.

12. The Catholic Church still believes they are the one and only church and all the Protestants are just branches that are their children and have to come into their fold.
There are also some other Protestant denominations that believe they are the only church and they are all wrong.
They either believe you have to be baptized in water or the Holy Spirit with speaking in tongues and they are also wrong on those points.
So you are right the CC called anything outside their denomination or belief system, which was more vocal and law in the dark ages. The biggest reason was belief in Apostolic Succession. They were wrong on that too. History records all this historical nonsense and sham.
This is why the CC has had to keep modifying their image. But it’s not working and I am saying this more to the leadership.
This doesn’t mean there are no sincere Catholic Christians because there are.
My father used to teach many that we’re hungry for the Holy Spirit in the charismatic renewal in the 1970’s.
But you cannot hide the truth about the cancerous side of the CC even today. Read the news. Jerry Kelso
 
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BABerean2

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Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Hebrews 8:8-12 are the same New Covenant that will be made with the real Israel Nd Judah, not the church.

The error of your comment above is revealed in the passage below.


Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
Heb 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
Heb 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.


Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:22-24, modern Dispensational Theology falls apart, and the pretrib removal of the Church falls with it.

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jerry kelso

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The error of your comment above is revealed in the passage below.


Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
Heb 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
Heb 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.


Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:22-24, modern Dispensational Theology falls apart, and the pretrib removal of the Church falls with it.

.

baberean2,

1. There is one New Covenant at Calvary.

2. It was made for the whole world; Jew and gentile alike.
For the 1st transgressions of the Old Testament Jews Hebrews 9:15 and gentiles that were saved according to the knowledge of Christ in their covenant Romans 2.
It was also for those who would become saved after the cross for we had to be perfected with them which the blood of Christ did what blood of bulls and goats could not do Read Hebrews 9.

2. Abraham and the rest are in their heavenly home.
We all will be raptured before the time of Jacob’s trouble and all of us including Abraham and David etc will come back with Christ to Armageddon out of Heaven to come back to earth.
This doesn’t disannull anything of Israel’s earthly calling with the Davidic kingdom reign.
Matthew said, people from the north, south, east and west will come to sit down with Abraham in the kingdom.
God is coming back to save his people the Jewish nation to establish the kingdom and their place in it at the head of the nations in Jerusalem.
Read your Bible.
What is to you that God have Israel a different position of authority.
You and I and all the church will have different positions in the Kingdom or don’t you believe that? Jerry kelso
 
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BABerean2

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You and I and all the church will have different positions in the Kingdom or don’t you believe that? Jerry kelso

Your Two Peoples of God/ Two Kingdoms of God doctrine falls apart below, and in all of the New Covenant scriptures.

Joh 10:16 And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.


Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off were assured of them, embraced them and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

Heb 11:14 For those who say such things declare plainly that they seek a homeland.
Heb 11:15 And truly if they had called to mind that country from which they had come out, they would have had opportunity to return.
Heb 11:16 But now they desire a better, that is, a heavenly country. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city for them.


.....................................

Jer 31:34 No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the LORD. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more."


Heb 8:11 NONE OF THEM SHALL TEACH HIS NEIGHBOR, AND NONE HIS BROTHER, SAYING, 'KNOW THE LORD,' FOR ALL SHALL KNOW ME, FROM THE LEAST OF THEM TO THE GREATEST OF THEM.


1Jn 2:27 But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him.

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jerry kelso

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Your Two Peoples of God/ Two Kingdoms of God doctrine falls apart below, and in all of the New Covenant scriptures.

Joh 10:16 And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.


Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off were assured of them, embraced them and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

Heb 11:14 For those who say such things declare plainly that they seek a homeland.
Heb 11:15 And truly if they had called to mind that country from which they had come out, they would have had opportunity to return.
Heb 11:16 But now they desire a better, that is, a heavenly country. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city for them.


.....................................

Jer 31:34 No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the LORD. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more."


Heb 8:11 NONE OF THEM SHALL TEACH HIS NEIGHBOR, AND NONE HIS BROTHER, SAYING, 'KNOW THE LORD,' FOR ALL SHALL KNOW ME, FROM THE LEAST OF THEM TO THE GREATEST OF THEM.


1Jn 2:27 But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him.

.

baberean2,

1. There are no two peoples of God for all are in one in Christ to make one new man. Ephesians 2:14-15

2. The nation of Israel is still backslidden so they cannot be one with Christ or Christians.

3. The Two Kingdoms are scriptural.
Whether it is distinguished as KOH and the KOG the physical land and the physical Kingdom reign has to be consummated and restored.

4. John is talking about the lost sheep of Israel for Ezekiel 37 says the house of Israel and Judah and have to become one stick with One shepherd and one flock.
John knew nothing about the church and the church was never at odds with Judah physically. You must be dreaming.
You have to spiritualized scripture.
Even if it was talking about the church prophetically everybody in Christ is one under our he blood covenant that is a born again Christian.

5. Those faith heroes never seen the promise of the restoration of all things
or the promise of God the Messiah.
They were strangers and pilgrims on earth and they sought a better country.
This has nothing to do with God’s plan for Israel in the KOH nor does it interfere with that program.

6. God made a covent with Israel that is unconditional and the same for the church.
Through his foreknowledge and being foreordained the church was born. It was no plan b.
Christ had to offer the unconditional covenants to Israel. The scriptures say that Israel would reject him. None said they would accept him.
There was no plan b but it was God’s doing by his word.

7. People ask what was the reason for proclaiming the KoH if Jesus knew they were going to reject him.
The promise was made to Israel on condition of salvation.
It does not really matter for he offered it to them Matthew 4:17.
Another question is would the kingdom had started if they had accepted him.
Any answer would be opinion and conjecture.
One thing is for sure is that Christ still would have had to die at the cross because no one would be perfected in salvation Hebrews 11:40.
The Old Testament Christians would have been held in limbo and no one after that would have been able to be saved.
The Old Testament saints were saved but not to the uttermost otherwise there would be no purpose for Christ finished work.
The Jewish nation of Israel rejected Christ before the cross under the Old Covenant.
They will not be saved as a nation until after the time of Jacob’s trouble. They have to be saved as a nation under the New Covenant of Calvary when they repent Jeremiah 31:31-34; Romans 11:25-29 Hebrews 8:8-12.
So there was no plan b or two peoples of God or two kingdoms in the context of your false accusations. Jerry Kelso
 
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BABerean2

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baberean2,

1. There are no two peoples of God for all are in one in Christ to make one new man. Ephesians 2:14-15

2. The nation of Israel is still backslidden so they cannot be one with Christ or Christians.

3. The Two Kingdoms are scriptural.
Whether it is distinguished as KOH and the KOG the physical land and the physical Kingdom reign has to be consummated and restored.

4. John is talking about the lost sheep of Israel for Ezekiel 37 says the house of Israel and Judah and have to become one stick with One shepherd and one flock.
John knew nothing about the church and the church was never at odds with Judah physically. You must be dreaming.
You have to spiritualized scripture.
Even if it was talking about the church prophetically everybody in Christ is one under our he blood covenant that is a born again Christian.

5. Those faith heroes never seen the promise of the restoration of all things
or the promise of God the Messiah.
They were strangers and pilgrims on earth and they sought a better country.
This has nothing to do with God’s plan for Israel in the KOH nor does it interfere with that program.

6. God made a covent with Israel that is unconditional and the same for the church.
Through his foreknowledge and being foreordained the church was born. It was no plan b.
Christ had to offer the unconditional covenants to Israel. The scriptures say that Israel would reject him. None said they would accept him.
There was no plan b but it was God’s doing by his word.

7. People ask what was the reason for proclaiming the KoH if Jesus knew they were going to reject him.
The promise was made to Israel on condition of salvation.
It does not really matter for he offered it to them Matthew 4:17.
Another question is would the kingdom had started if they had accepted him.
Any answer would be opinion and conjecture.
One thing is for sure is that Christ still would have had to die at the cross because no one would be perfected in salvation Hebrews 11:40.
The Old Testament Christians would have been held in limbo and no one after that would have been able to be saved.
The Old Testament saints were saved but not to the uttermost otherwise there would be no purpose for Christ finished work.
The Jewish nation of Israel rejected Christ before the cross under the Old Covenant.
They will not be saved as a nation until after the time of Jacob’s trouble. They have to be saved as a nation under the New Covenant of Calvary when they repent Jeremiah 31:31-34; Romans 11:25-29 Hebrews 8:8-12.
So there was no plan b or two peoples of God or two kingdoms in the context of your false accusations. Jerry Kelso


Pastor John Otis proves the error of your Two Kingdoms doctrine in the video below.

Great Errors in Dispensational Eschatology: Pastor John Otis


.
 
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jgr,

1. I see you understand nothing much about dispensationalism and immanency concerning the rapture or the imminent return of Christ.

2. Most pre-trinkets would disagree and I read the next statement and all it talked about was the recapitulation of the nature of the corruption of the Antichrist.
The snatching away is pre-trib terminology such as 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 and then he quotes Matthew 24:21 which is about the time of Jacob ‘s trouble which is tribulation separate from the present church.

2. New Advent and Freedom watchers. Not that it will make any difference for you will cry wolf and scream heretics.

3. We would be taken to the Lord is what it is supposed to be, got in a hurry.

4. New Advent and Freedom Watcher and Beginning To End.

5. Nothing bogus. Barnabas preached with Paul and Paul certainly did not believe in post rapture 2 Thessalonians 2:1-2.

6. I never said that you said Barnabas wrote Hebrews. I said scholars could not really substantiate he wrote it. My personal opinion I said was Paul.
Just by these kind of replies sure gives the perception that you don’t really pay close enough attention or you are trying so hard to prove your doctrinal stance instead of trying to search and find the real truth.

7. The Bible shows a pre-trib rapture 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17; Revelation 4:1 and the Jewish persecution of the time of Jacob’s trouble Jeremiah 30:7; Daniel 12:1; Matthew 24:21 etc.
It shows the Jews will have a nation called Israel like today. The difference is that they won’t be backslidden Isaiah 2; 9:6-7; Jeremiah 31:31-34, Joel 2; Ezekiel 36:25-29; 37:16-28; Luke 1 with Zachariah’s prophecy, Luke 2 and Simeon and Anna as well.
It also shows they will be at the head of the nations Isaiah 2:2-4 which will be the earthly Jerusalem.
David will Be King Over Israel Ezekiel 37 verse 20 I believe.
And Christ over the nations from the same capital, Jerusalem Zechariah 14 if I recall.

8. There has always been dispensational teachings and concepts from the time God drafted the redemption plan.
Paul said he was given the dispensation of the grace of God.
I believe in being careful of making doctrines out of perceptions like many do such as the spiritual jew theory.
But there is no comparison between the two.
The spiritual Jew context was getting on the physical Jew that was disobedient and blasphemous towards the gentiles.
The real physical Jew is one who is truly saved inwardly which was always the case for the law could not save anyone.
It was not for the physical Jew who was not truly saved.
What is interesting to to not is that in vs. 28-29 the uncircumcision that represented the heathen gentile is not mentioned.
Because God has never been a respect of persons he has always made a way for a gentile to be saved whether in the Old or New Testaments. Compare Ezekiel 18:20-32 with Romans 2:25-27.
So the context doesn’t warrant a whole new doctrine called the spiritual Jew theory.

9. A dispensation is a stewardship of an economy. This denotes a caretaker to take care of an economy.
A covenant is an agreement or contract between men, or between men and God.
God made covenants and originate with him. Some are unconditional promises and are usually based on fulfillment of certain conditions. They all relate to the earth and we’re given to individual and representative men and some have been fulfilled and some are still future.
There were many stewards in each covenant.
Many believe that the New Covenant has not happened yet. It’s for Israel to receive their land (Matthew 5:5)
The promise is in Jeremiah 31:31-34; Hebrews 8:7-13.
It’s unconditional and covers the Millennium and the New Heaven and the New Earth. It is based on the finished work of Christ.
It has nothing to do with the church.

10. The truth is that the New Covenant was made in Jeremiah 31:31 with the house of Israel and the house of Judah not according to the covenant that he made in Egypt.
The church was not in effect in Egypt and is not the same kind of physical nation as Israel and Judah.
Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Hebrews 8:8-12 are the same New Covenant that will be made with the real Israel Nd Judah, not the church.
That doesn’t mean the New Covenant wasn’t the finished work of Christ because Hebrews 8:6-7 shows this to be true.
So there is only one New Covenant which happened at Calvary.
But to stay true to context Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Hebrews:8-12 specifically is the New Covenant to the houses of Israel and Judah.
The reason is so God can fulfill his unconditional promises of the Abrahamic and Davidic Covenants.
The only way to believe otherwise is to spiritualize scriptures and their context and not believe that God’s Unconditional covenants that are specifically to them is not true or it ended at Calvary etc. and the church has been amen their place which is replacement theology.

11. It took the reformationists of the 15th and 16th century and the revivalists of the 17th and 18th centuries to remove the crooked and corrupt Catholic Church who were legalistic and power hunger mixed in with the government.
The Catholic Church as a whole we’re Antichrists but not the Antichrist of Revelation 13 for that one will be a man, the son of perdition.

12. The Catholic Church still believes they are the one and only church and all the Protestants are just branches that are their children and have to come into their fold.
There are also some other Protestant denominations that believe they are the only church and they are all wrong.
They either believe you have to be baptized in water or the Holy Spirit with speaking in tongues and they are also wrong on those points.
So you are right the CC called anything outside their denomination or belief system, which was more vocal and law in the dark ages. The biggest reason was belief in Apostolic Succession. They were wrong on that too. History records all this historical nonsense and sham.
This is why the CC has had to keep modifying their image. But it’s not working and I am saying this more to the leadership.
This doesn’t mean there are no sincere Catholic Christians because there are.
My father used to teach many that we’re hungry for the Holy Spirit in the charismatic renewal in the 1970’s.
But you cannot hide the truth about the cancerous side of the CC even today. Read the news. Jerry Kelso
 
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Hi Jerry, I am going to give you my Pre-Trib rapture challenge that I have given to every writer of raptureready.com which would include Dr. Thomas Ice of Liberty University, Dr. Mark Hitchcock and hundreds if not thousands of other professors and pastor/teachers. No response. The teaching itself creates a logical fallacy in about ten ways but I will stick with one that no one can answer me. Now I have about a ten page article just on the challenge but I will keep it simple.

HERE IT IS: THIS HAS BEEN GIVEN TO THOUSANDS!
Let's read 1st Thessalonians 4:13-18 in its context and none of that eisogesis [surface reading the scriptures and coming up with your own presuppositional ideas], throwing out your hermeneutics, and basing your faith on other books, or teachings that contradict scripture. It’s time to be intellectually honest with God, yourself, and each other and to search our hearts by searching the scriptures.

Is the pre-trib rapture teaching an end-time delusion [doctrine of demons] for those seeking teachers that will itch their ears? I hope I can make my point which is plainly from God’s Word. I believe in the simplicity that is in Christ Jesus and that God doesn’t make things difficult to understand but we do and we are easily receptive of things that we shouldn’t be.

The Bible does teach the doctrine of the sufficiency of scripture. Every false teaching and cult has come out of surface-reading God’s Word and they come up with some supposedly new revelation that never existed before. They also quote most of the time out of the Old Testament. This is what they all do. If someone is quoting 90% of the time out of the Old Testament, something is wrong with their doctrine. The New Testament is for believers in Jesus. Unfortunately, we are commanded in scripture to judge all things and test all things to see if they are true or not. And when we do that, if there is a contradiction, we should not believe something just because we hold some man or woman in high regard. There might actually be some idolatry in the heart going on there if we elevate a man’s teaching above the Word, Jesus.

Let’s read in its context and see what God says.

1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord [2nd advent] shall not prevent them which are asleep.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

It doesn’t sound like a quiet secretive event does it? Read those words I highlighted in red or are in bold print. Let it sink in. It’s God’s Word, not mine.

1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up [harpazo-Greek; rapturos-Latin] together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Now I exegete this passage within it's own book and it is about 10 pages long if you want a copy. I have a number of questions that go with this but I can't get ONE person to explain this simple first question-

"HOW CAN I, A GENTILE CHRISTIAN, BE BOTH ALIVE AND REMAIN AND RAPTURED AND GONE AT THE SAME TIME OF CHRIST'S (PAROUSIA)?" Parousia in scripture is always the "2nd coming of Christ". Harpazo is a different word. Did the Holy Spirit really mess up when He didn't use the word "klepto" instead of harpazo when He had Paul write this because klepto existed at the time of this writing? Klepto would have been perfect for a secret rapture. Harpazo has the meaning of rescue (to pull out of; like HARpooning a well out of water) and remain (pereelipo) has the meaning "survive".

Almost every single Christian cult came out between 1830 and 1890 and many of the current false teachings in the church on end times came out at this time also. Some Christians left Jesus when the 1844 rapture did not happen to the original pre-tribbers because they felt God's Word failed when God's Word never taught it.

I would love to see this debunked. I believed and even taught a few the pre-trib teaching for about 30 years. When I finally studied out it for myself and learned the history of those who brought it about, it seems to be the biggest scam the devil has ever brought upon the church that makes the prosperity teaching of the Word of Faith Movement pale in comparison.
 
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The error of your comment above is revealed in the passage below.


Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
Heb 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
Heb 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.


Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:22-24, modern Dispensational Theology falls apart, and the pretrib removal of the Church falls with it.

.
Amen
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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The error of your comment above is revealed in the passage below.
Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
.
Great verse..............

Mt Sinai OC 70AD Jerusalem Hebrews 12:18 Revelation 8:8
Mt Zion NC Heavenly Jerusalem Hebrews 12:22 Revelation 14:1

Faith, Mountain, and Sea Matt 21:21/Mark 11:3


Matthew 21:21 Yet Jesus answering said to them, "amen I am saying to ye, if ever ye may be having Faith, and no ye may be doubting, not only the of the fig-tree ye shall be doing,
but even-ever to this Mountain ye may saying, 'Be being lifted up! and be being cast! into the Sea', it shall be becoming"; [Revelation 8:8]

Galatians 4:24 which things is an allegory. For these are the two Covenants, one indeed from mount Sinai into servitude generating who-any is Hagar. 25 For the Hagar mount Sinai is in Arabia is together-elemental yet to now Jerusalem slaving/serving with the offpspring of Her.

Hebrews 12:18 For you have not come to a mountain that might be touched, and that burned with fire, and to blackness, darkness, storm, 19 the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which those who heard it begged that not one more word should be spoken to them,
Deuteronomy 411 And ye draw near and stand under the Mountain, and the Mountain is burning with fire unto the heart of the Heavens — darkness, cloud, yea, thick darkness:
Exodus 19:16 And it cometh to pass, on the third day, while it is morning, that there are voices, and lightnings, and a heavy cloud, on the Mount, and the sound of a Trumpet very strong; and all the people who are in the camp do tremble.
Revelation 8:8 And the second messenger trumpet, and as it were a great Mountain with fire burning was cast into the Sea, and the third of the sea became blood,
--------------------------------------
Isaiah 4:5
then the LORD will create above every dwelling place of Mount Zion, and above her assemblies, a cloud and smoke by day and the shining of a flaming fire by night. For over all the glory there will be a covering.

Hebrew 12:22 But ye have come to Mount Zion, and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable multitudes of angels,

Revelation 14:1 Then I looked, and behold, a Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His Father's name written on their foreheads.
 
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jerry kelso

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Hi Jerry, I am going to give you my Pre-Trib rapture challenge that I have given to every writer of raptureready.com which would include Dr. Thomas Ice of Liberty University, Dr. Mark Hitchcock and hundreds if not thousands of other professors and pastor/teachers. No response. The teaching itself creates a logical fallacy in about ten ways but I will stick with one that no one can answer me. Now I have about a ten page article just on the challenge but I will keep it simple.

HERE IT IS: THIS HAS BEEN GIVEN TO THOUSANDS!
Let's read 1st Thessalonians 4:13-18 in its context and none of that eisogesis [surface reading the scriptures and coming up with your own presuppositional ideas], throwing out your hermeneutics, and basing your faith on other books, or teachings that contradict scripture. It’s time to be intellectually honest with God, yourself, and each other and to search our hearts by searching the scriptures.

Is the pre-trib rapture teaching an end-time delusion [doctrine of demons] for those seeking teachers that will itch their ears? I hope I can make my point which is plainly from God’s Word. I believe in the simplicity that is in Christ Jesus and that God doesn’t make things difficult to understand but we do and we are easily receptive of things that we shouldn’t be.

The Bible does teach the doctrine of the sufficiency of scripture. Every false teaching and cult has come out of surface-reading God’s Word and they come up with some supposedly new revelation that never existed before. They also quote most of the time out of the Old Testament. This is what they all do. If someone is quoting 90% of the time out of the Old Testament, something is wrong with their doctrine. The New Testament is for believers in Jesus. Unfortunately, we are commanded in scripture to judge all things and test all things to see if they are true or not. And when we do that, if there is a contradiction, we should not believe something just because we hold some man or woman in high regard. There might actually be some idolatry in the heart going on there if we elevate a man’s teaching above the Word, Jesus.

Let’s read in its context and see what God says.

1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord [2nd advent] shall not prevent them which are asleep.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

It doesn’t sound like a quiet secretive event does it? Read those words I highlighted in red or are in bold print. Let it sink in. It’s God’s Word, not mine.

1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up [harpazo-Greek; rapturos-Latin] together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Now I exegete this passage within it's own book and it is about 10 pages long if you want a copy. I have a number of questions that go with this but I can't get ONE person to explain this simple first question-

"HOW CAN I, A GENTILE CHRISTIAN, BE BOTH ALIVE AND REMAIN AND RAPTURED AND GONE AT THE SAME TIME OF CHRIST'S (PAROUSIA)?" Parousia in scripture is always the "2nd coming of Christ". Harpazo is a different word. Did the Holy Spirit really mess up when He didn't use the word "klepto" instead of harpazo when He had Paul write this because klepto existed at the time of this writing? Klepto would have been perfect for a secret rapture. Harpazo has the meaning of rescue (to pull out of; like HARpooning a well out of water) and remain (pereelipo) has the meaning "survive".

Almost every single Christian cult came out between 1830 and 1890 and many of the current false teachings in the church on end times came out at this time also. Some Christians left Jesus when the 1844 rapture did not happen to the original pre-tribbers because they felt God's Word failed when God's Word never taught it.

I would love to see this debunked. I believed and even taught a few the pre-trib teaching for about 30 years. When I finally studied out it for myself and learned the history of those who brought it about, it seems to be the biggest scam the devil has ever brought upon the church that makes the prosperity teaching of the Word of Faith Movement pale in comparison.

thesacredcowtipper,

1. First, I believe in proper exegesis which is not surface reading of the scriptures or coming up with presuppositions.
With that statement you have started on the wrong foot.
I also believe in Bible hermeneutics which is about rightly dividing the word 2 Timothy 2:15.

2. There are great Christian scholars on both sides of different issues whether it’s about eternal security unconditional or conditional or the rapture Pre-, Mid, or Post.
To be honest etc. statement doesn’t hold water. Now both of your feet are shot.

3. Pre-trib rapture demonic? Why? Because you believe that it will make Christians fall away from God if it doesn’t happen? We are to occupy until he comes and we are to be ready to give our lives for the cause of Christ. All the apostles except John were martyred.
Paul said in Romans 8:36; As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
1 Corinthians 15:30; And why stand we in Jeopardy every hour? V31; I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus, I die daily.
2 Corinthians 4:11; For we which live are alway delivered unto death for Jesus sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh v 12; So then death workers in us, but life in you.
2 Timothy 2:12; if we suffer we shall reign.
There are people in many countries that are martyred and always has been that way. Read Hebrews 11:35-38.
The deception theory about the pre-trib rapture came to the forefront because of opposition to the Left Behind series.
What rapture position you believe should not effect your salvation.
Matthew 24:22 tells how bad the tribulation will be that God will shorten it otherwise no flesh should be saved.
It could be argued spiritually as much as physically of losing one life because of the pressure.
The point is, to say it’s demonic is opinion and conjecture not scripture.
To be ready at all times and be ready to give your life if it comes to that is biblical. So you are wrong again.

4. The whole Bible is for us in the proper perspective. If you believe the Old Testament is of no value to the church you won’t be able to harmonize or really understand the New Testament. There are still Old Testament prophecies that have not been fulfilled yet and will be in the New Testament and are mentioned in the New Testament. The Old Testament concealed is the New Testament revealed.
We are to be like the Bereans to see if what they say is true.
You might ought to talk to baberean2 who is always pushing his videos of his teachers who make up stuff about dispensationalists etc.
So far reading what you’ve posted I don’t think you qualify for judging and accusing that I don’t study myself because I’m into respect of persons of who I think is a great teacher or scholar. Talk about superficial on your part.

5. Parousia means personal coming or appearance. It is used for both the rapture and the second coming.
Harpazo is transporting people from one place to another especially Heaven. It is referred to as rapture.

6. The church will be raptured Revelation 4:1; be judged for our works either in the middle of the tribulation or near the end in Heaven Revelation 11:18.
We will still be in Heaven for the Marriage of the Lamb Revelation 19:7-10; verse 11 the saints will come out of Heaven to go to Armageddon Revelation 11:15. There is no post trib rapture.

7. At the rapture Christ doesn’t appear visibly to earth but comes in the air and to catch up those alive and who remain to meet the dead in Christ who come with him from Heaven.
The rapture is a New Testament doctrine that the Old Testament people didn’t know about. Paul in 1 Corinthians 15:52 shows it is a mystery.
The second coming known as the Day of the Lord was understood by the Old Testament Saints and wasn’t a mystery.
They never saw the New Testament church lot alone the rapture of the church.
The Lord doesn’t stay in the air during the tribulation and then complete a second stage to come to earth to be among men.
He takes them back to Heaven to present them blameless before God (John 14:1-3; 1 Thessalonians 3:13; 4:16-17).

8. The shout and the trump etc. is for the churches ears to hear. Don’t put God in a box.
And I don’t know why you keep making a big deal about secrecy.
The Bible says the Day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night and yet if you read Revelation 16:16 which is Armageddon and if the person knows the story they ought to know it doesn’t sound very secretive.
We are to be looking for that Blessed Hope and lay aside the sin that so easily besets is cause the the cloud of witnesses are waving us home.
Even if it was secretive it wouldn’t be for long when cars start crashing and people are caught up while walking and clothes are left behind and it catches on to the news and people are Hearts are failing with fear etc.

9. I have to go to bed but suffice to say your exegesis was totally wrong and not scriptural.
And those who fell from grace because they believed God’s word failed didn’t know the word and must have not had much root and backbone and willingness to count the cost and carry their cross daily even in martyrdom.
The Bible says no one knows the day or hour. This is the problem of date setters.
I believe in pre trib rapture but that doesn’t make me worried about going through it if I had to. We have to be cemented in Christ the solid rock forever not tossed about with ever wind of doctrine which the devil tries to use to steal, Kill, And destroy our lives. But we need to be sold out to God and occupy till he comes not give up.
So yes, I have debunked your wrong scriptural exegesis and your wrong unscriptural thinking about making people fall away. Either you are for God all the way or you just fall from Grace. Jerry Kelso
 
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Great verse..............

Mt Sinai OC 70AD Jerusalem Hebrews 12:18 Revelation 8:8
Mt Zion NC Heavenly Jerusalem Hebrews 12:22 Revelation 14:1

Faith, Mountain, and Sea Matt 21:21/Mark 11:3


Matthew 21:21 Yet Jesus answering said to them, "amen I am saying to ye, if ever ye may be having Faith, and no ye may be doubting, not only the of the fig-tree ye shall be doing,
but even-ever to this Mountain ye may saying, 'Be being lifted up! and be being cast! into the Sea', it shall be becoming"; [Revelation 8:8]

Galatians 4:24 which things is an allegory. For these are the two Covenants, one indeed from mount Sinai into servitude generating who-any is Hagar. 25 For the Hagar mount Sinai is in Arabia is together-elemental yet to now Jerusalem slaving/serving with the offpspring of Her.

Hebrews 12:18 For you have not come to a mountain that might be touched, and that burned with fire, and to blackness, darkness, storm, 19 the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which those who heard it begged that not one more word should be spoken to them,

Revelation 8:8 And the second messenger trumpet, and as it were a great Mountain with fire burning was cast into the Sea, and the third of the sea became blood,
--------------------------------------


Hebrew 12:22 But ye have come to Mount Zion, and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable multitudes of angels,

Revelation 14:1 Then I looked, and behold, a Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His Father's name written on their foreheads.
Yes, two covenants. The one promised 2,500 years before Abraham in Genesis 3:15, the covenant of Promise, had finally come and replaced the temporary (as Paul put it) mosaic covenant once and for all. All one in Christ now (Romans 3:28, 29; Galatians 3:28,29 and the Christians whether Jew or Gentile now are the heirs of the kingdom (Gal. 4:1-4). He that hath the Son hath life. He that hath not the Son is antichrist whcih includes Judaism and Islam, two fo the three biggest threats on Christianity to this day and why the Jewish media is right now trying to block all content exposing the Noahide Laws and passing their anti-bds laws.
 
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BABerean2

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Pre-trib rapture demonic? Why?

In the video below a woman reads a letter written by Corrie Ten Boom, whose family died in Nazi concentration camps, because they were caught hiding Jews during WWII.

Corrie reveals how the pretrib teaching caused damage to the Body of Christ in nations undergoing persecution.



.
 
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In the video below a woman reads a letter written by Corrie Ten Boom, whose family died in Nazi concentration camps, because they were caught hiding Jews during WWII.

Corrie reveals how the pretrib teaching caused damage to the Body of Christ in nations undergoing persecution.



.
Amen. It gives a false hope of the Blessed Hope which is Jesus' physical return to rescue his church IN tribulation. No one in the western church wants to quote the promises of God that are not the happy ones like "If you follow me, you will be persecuted." The days of being lukewarm and people lying to themselves that they are not going to have to suffer in the western church are coming to a close. I say this with the utmost confidence and 1000% belief that I KNOW the pre-trib rapture is very false. Look at those who left Jesus in 1844 at The Great Disappointment. They must have felt their pastor/s were giving them the truth and Jesus failed them. In my "pre-trib rapture challenge" that I have givne 1,000's of people. They cannot answer this ONE simple question as their whole foundation is destroyed. "How can I as a Gentile believer be both alive and remain (survive/perleepio) and be raptured and gone already at the second coming (parousia) of Jesus? It goes to show how screwed up Bible College students are. They went and got an indoctrination instead of an education. They throw out their hermeneutical exegesis every time it comes to a subject that presuppose to be true that itches their ears. I hope we can warn millions to get oil in their lamps. This is a serious doctrine. This is also why people like John McArthur were able to say he thinks you can repent after taking the mark of the beast. His whole end time theology is bogus to be able to ignore 7 passages that say otherwise.
 
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jerry kelso

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In the video below a woman reads a letter written by Corrie Ten Boom, whose family died in Nazi concentration camps, because they were caught hiding Jews during WWII.

Corrie reveals how the pretrib teaching caused damage to the Body of Christ in nations undergoing persecution.



.

baberean2,

1. I respect Corrie Ten Boom and I read The Hiding Place when it first came out.
I don’t recall a direct reference to the Pre-trib rapture.
She made the statement that God has promised to keep his covenant people from the wrath to come but he said we would have tribulation but he has overcome and we can overcome. These are two different things.
Also, some of those articles are by people who are posttribbers.

2. The introduction to your video is supposedly a letter against pre-trib rapture but the video is just about the value of persecution and being an intercessor and overcoming.

3. Tribulation worketh patience Paul wrote. So there is no argument there.
There is no argument against persecution of being a martyr for we are like sheep led to the slaughter and all the other scriptures I gave last time including to be faithful and occupy until he comes.

4. To go by Corrie Ten Boom’s experience doesn’t mean everyone will have to go through the same thing. There are plenty of well known and great Christians who never suffered in a concentration camp or became martyrs but all went through personal tribulations of different things.

5. Theologically, it doesn’t hold up a post tribute rapture.
All the tribulation saints will be raptured in time for the marriage of the Lamb with the saints who are already there and they are martyrs Revelation 6:9-11; 7:13-17; 13:7; 11:13, 14:13; 15:1-2.
The 144;000 from Revelation 7 are rapture to Heaven and the last martyrs are in Revelation 15:1-2 which is right before the Wrath of God of the 7 vials Revelation 15:1;16:1 and 16:2 says the vials are poured out on the Beast Kingdom Worshippers.
The believing remnant will be left and Israel who will be preserved in the wilderness.

6. The tribulation for saints is not a new thing and is still happening in different places of the world.
Maybe the United States has not known such persecutions in concentration camps but we have predominantly been a Christian nation and been fortunate for the grace of God. But I can assure you right now it wouldn’t take much more of Christians didn’t pray for us to get there and we may still get there before the rapture. But God hasn’t changed so why should we if we are fully committed and understand the word.

7. Corrie Ten Boom is right that we can’t escape tribulation and it has value because we humbled and rely on God because we know there is no other alternative. But we should always live like that according to great apostles of the Faith like Smith Wigglesworth and Corrie Ten Boom and Harmon Popov and Richard Wurmbrand and others.
But the time of Jacob’s trouble is specific to the Jews purification Daniel 9:24 to receive the Davidic Kingdom reign on earth. Ezekiel 37:16-28.

8. So for those who think Pre-Trib rapture is just about escapism so we can live on easy street all our lives is ridiculous and are shallow to being a committed and sold out Christian.
So like Corrie Ten Boom said being saved from the wrath to come and tribulation now are two different things for she said some are already in tribulation just like her.
9. If you want a post rapture from 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 you would have us going up and the first resurrection in Revelation 20:4-6 which shows only the dead rising who didn’t take the mark which happens right before the vials Revelation 15:1-2.
That would be more than a year or however long it takes for all the judgements that are poured out would last.
So there is no post rapture right before Armageddon and then coming back immediately after going up. That is incorrect hermeneutics.
There are plenty of scriptures that say Israel will go through the time of Jacob’s trouble, but none that say the church has to go through the time of Jacob’s trouble. That is why you have to have the spiritual Jew theory which I have already debunked, just like the post rapture and Corrie Ten Boom’s assessment that you say was against Pre-trib.
I can surely understand why she might think that way about people that believed in escapism and not any real tribulation but she never set a real precedent about the church going through the time of Jacob’s trouble. Jerry Kelso
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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baberean2,

1. I respect Corrie Ten Boom and I read The Hiding Place when it first came out.
I don’t recall a direct reference to the Pre-trib rapture.
I can surely understand why she might think that way about people that believed in escapism and not any real tribulation but she never set a real precedent about the church going through the time of Jacob’s trouble. Jerry Kelso
Jesus implied escapism would'nt be easy up to the holocaust of 70AD in which those that heeded the call to flee Judea/Jerusalem would escape........

Luke 21:
23 “But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people.
36 “Yet be being vigilant/watching in every season, beseeching that ye should be being strong to be escaping<1628> all these, the being about to be becoming, and to stand before the Son of the Man.

1 Thessalonians 5:3 For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape<1628>.

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD

The sceptre of Judah, i . e . its civil and political authority, the life of its religion, and the glory of its temple, were departed. It was, in short, morally and judicially dead. The eagle, whose ruling instinct is rapine and murder, as fitly represented the fierce and sanguinary temper of the Romans, and, perhaps, might be intended to refer also to the principal figure on their ensigns, which, however obnoxious to the Jews, were at length planted in the midst of the holy city, and finally on the temple itself.

Of the Jews destroyed during the siege, Josephus reckons not less than ONE MILLION AND ONE HUNDRED THOUSAND, to which must be added, above TWO-HUNDRED AND THIRTY-SEVEN THOUSAND who perished in other places, and innumerable multitudes who were swept away by famine, and pestilence, and of which no calculation could be made. Not less than two thousand laid violent hands upon themselves. Of the captives the whole was about NINETY-SEVEN THOUSAND. Of the Two great leaders of the Jews, who had both been made prisoners, John was doomed to a dungeon for life ; while Simon, together with John, in triumph at Rome was scourged, and put to death as a malefactor.
==============================
Revelation 19
17 And I saw one messenger standing in the sun, and he cries-out in great voice, saying to all the birds, the ones flying in mid-heaven, "hither! be ye being gathered!<4863> into the Supper of the Great God.
18 That ye may be eating fleshes of kings......[Zeph 1:17/Ezekiel 39:19]
 
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BABerean2

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The introduction to your video is supposedly a letter against pre-trib rapture but the video is just about the value of persecution and being an intercessor and overcoming.

Starting at time 3:12 in the video there is a reference to how Christians in China had been told they would escape tribulation, and a bishop from China said they had failed to warn the people.

.
 
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baberean2,

1. I respect Corrie Ten Boom and I read The Hiding Place when it first came out.
I don’t recall a direct reference to the Pre-trib rapture.
She made the statement that God has promised to keep his covenant people from the wrath to come but he said we would have tribulation but he has overcome and we can overcome. These are two different things.
Also, some of those articles are by people who are posttribbers.

2. The introduction to your video is supposedly a letter against pre-trib rapture but the video is just about the value of persecution and being an intercessor and overcoming.

3. Tribulation worketh patience Paul wrote. So there is no argument there.
There is no argument against persecution of being a martyr for we are like sheep led to the slaughter and all the other scriptures I gave last time including to be faithful and occupy until he comes.

4. To go by Corrie Ten Boom’s experience doesn’t mean everyone will have to go through the same thing. There are plenty of well known and great Christians who never suffered in a concentration camp or became martyrs but all went through personal tribulations of different things.

5. Theologically, it doesn’t hold up a post tribute rapture.
All the tribulation saints will be raptured in time for the marriage of the Lamb with the saints who are already there and they are martyrs Revelation 6:9-11; 7:13-17; 13:7; 11:13, 14:13; 15:1-2.
The 144;000 from Revelation 7 are rapture to Heaven and the last martyrs are in Revelation 15:1-2 which is right before the Wrath of God of the 7 vials Revelation 15:1;16:1 and 16:2 says the vials are poured out on the Beast Kingdom Worshippers.
The believing remnant will be left and Israel who will be preserved in the wilderness.

6. The tribulation for saints is not a new thing and is still happening in different places of the world.
Maybe the United States has not known such persecutions in concentration camps but we have predominantly been a Christian nation and been fortunate for the grace of God. But I can assure you right now it wouldn’t take much more of Christians didn’t pray for us to get there and we may still get there before the rapture. But God hasn’t changed so why should we if we are fully committed and understand the word.

7. Corrie Ten Boom is right that we can’t escape tribulation and it has value because we humbled and rely on God because we know there is no other alternative. But we should always live like that according to great apostles of the Faith like Smith Wigglesworth and Corrie Ten Boom and Harmon Popov and Richard Wurmbrand and others.
But the time of Jacob’s trouble is specific to the Jews purification Daniel 9:24 to receive the Davidic Kingdom reign on earth. Ezekiel 37:16-28.

8. So for those who think Pre-Trib rapture is just about escapism so we can live on easy street all our lives is ridiculous and are shallow to being a committed and sold out Christian.
So like Corrie Ten Boom said being saved from the wrath to come and tribulation now are two different things for she said some are already in tribulation just like her.
9. If you want a post rapture from 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 you would have us going up and the first resurrection in Revelation 20:4-6 which shows only the dead rising who didn’t take the mark which happens right before the vials Revelation 15:1-2.
That would be more than a year or however long it takes for all the judgements that are poured out would last.
So there is no post rapture right before Armageddon and then coming back immediately after going up. That is incorrect hermeneutics.
There are plenty of scriptures that say Israel will go through the time of Jacob’s trouble, but none that say the church has to go through the time of Jacob’s trouble. That is why you have to have the spiritual Jew theory which I have already debunked, just like the post rapture and Corrie Ten Boom’s assessment that you say was against Pre-trib.
I can surely understand why she might think that way about people that believed in escapism and not any real tribulation but she never set a real precedent about the church going through the time of Jacob’s trouble. Jerry Kelso
 
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A lot of good stuff there Jerry that I can agree with. Some I can't. But you say post-trib rapture is incorrect.
If you do a word study and keep the Book of 1st Thessalonians in its context and exegete it, you will come away with only one belief- either a pre-wrath or post-trib rapture (which may actually end up being the same thing).

I confronted 1,000's of Christians over the last 3 years with one simple question when I had them read 1st Thess. 4:13-18 and not one could answer. It creates an automatic logical fallacy in their hermeneutic. I hit the entire staff of raptureready.com that has hundreds of writers like Dr. Thomas Ice who has went off the deep end trying to use the word apostasy as another harpazo. He's desperate. Other's like Dr. Mark Hitchcock. I put forth my PRE-TRIB RAPTURE CHALLENGE. None can answer it and stay in exegesis yet they continue to teach it knowing something is seriously wrong. This is why they have to hold to cult leader (as Charles Spurgeon put it) John Darby's dispensationalism and not interpret scripture in its context. The word dispensation is only in the Bible four times and it is speaking of only two dispensations- the old and new covenants.

The simple question is this. Maybe you can be the first to debunk it. You can only use scripture passages that are kept within their context. That's how scripture is supposed to be interpreted. "How can I be both "alive and REMAIN (PERLEEPIO; SURVIVE)" and be ALREADY raptured and gone at the same time at the Lord's coming (PAROUSIA; 2ND ADVENT- not harpazo and not klepto which the Holy Spirit could have used if it was a secret rapture)?"

One hint of many I can give you: Who is Paul talking to?
Pre-tribber teachers need to ask the questions who? what? when? where? and why? instead of going to God's Word with presuppositions and changing its meaning.

Actually Thessalonians has other passages that prove a post or pre-wrath rapture, not a pre-trib. Pre-trib takes every passage out of its context and what are the three rules of exegesis? Context. Context. Context.

I would also say that the mass majority of Christians in the western church are lukewarm and being spit out (apostatizing even now) and would be the last ones Jesus would rapture. Only 2% share their faith regularly and some never do. Is Jesus going to reward them with a get out of persecution card for being unfaithful? Look at all the false movements and crazy stuff people are saying-
John McArthur- take the mark of the beast and be able to repent still when scripture says otherwise 7 times. People are going crazy in doctrine. Southern Baptists are going insane with communism/socialism junk and receiving money from George Soros' Open Society's 1,000 sub-organizations. I can go on and on. What did their leader recently say, something about we need to be outspoken for LGBTQ? I can't remember his words but that denomination is gone. I left it two years ago. Come out from among them my people.

The falling away is the "what" in 2nd Thess. that will usher in the antichrist. For the time of the early church, the what was the Roman Empire with the rising of the Popes taking on the name Pontificus Maximus. Our generation is the falling away of the church. Jesus even said "Will I find THE faith on earth when I return". We would he say such a thing? Because there is only a remnant of Jewish and gentile believers that will hold to truth or be faithful UNTO death. There is only ONE body in Christ.

The phrase the time of Jacob's trouble is only in the Bible once also. And who does the Bible teach is the true Jacob? Paul, Peter and Jesus says it is the church (Gal. 3:28, 29; 4:1-4; Romans 2:28,29 for starters). Who has always been persecuted? The church. Read Martin Luther and see what was going on in his time. The Old Testament teaches the same exact principle- natural Jews or Israelites were cut off and Gentiles were grafted in over and over even in the Old Testament. This has always been the case. it is not replacement theology, it is fact from day one. The pre-tribbers are teaching replacement theology with replacing the church with Khazaria. If a man lay down with a man, he was to be cut off from the people. Is that man even though a natural Israeli, still an Israeli? Not according to God. His circumcision was made uncircumcision. He was no longer IN Yahweh. In the New Testament, if IN Yeshua, we are God's people. He that hat the Son (whether Jew or Gentile) hath life; he that doth not have the Son (Jew or Gentile) hath not life. He that denies Jesus as Messiah is antichrist if you read John's epistles. got to go. Gave you a bunch to think about. :?D

P.S. I believed and slightly taught the pre-trib/dispensationalism thing for about 32 years until I actually studied the scriptures and prayerfully asked God some questions and I noticed some things being taught were off and the pile of things that were off kept growing. The thing that got me was Matthew 24:32 and how everyone was teaching the fig tree was Israel in this verse and had something to do with 1948. Here are the problems with their hermeneutical holocaust of the scriptures.
1. The passage is a metaphor as it has the word like, as or likewise in it.
2. It is saying "when you see all these signs I am giving you happening all at the same time, you know spring is near like the flowers and leaves shooting forth in spring are that sign." (my paraphrase)
3. Luke 21 says this which totally debunks that. "when you see the fig tree AND ALL THE TREES..." How people teach on a subject and didn't even read the parallel synoptic gospel that gives a little extra details scares me. they call themselves scholars.

Luk 21:29 And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;

That was my journey out of the false teaching. It started with one of their 5 most quoted passages being taken out of context and had nothing to do with any country. I bet Hal Lindsey is moving that goalpost back another 40 years now because he said the rapture had to take place before 1988 as many, many pre-tribbers did. I wonder if many left Jesus like they did in 1844 when what people were teaching didn't happen like they said it would? Now we are two months shy of 72 years since 1948. Is Hal a liar or Jesus? A generation is 40 years in scripture. They keep changing their foundation and if a foundation can be moved it is made of sand and not bedrock.
 
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I believe the approach to the time before Yeshua returns needs to be looked at from His perspective. How bad must sin be in the world before He steps in and puts a stop to it all? Why then?

There are two activities going on simultaneously .. that in which God in Heaven in working on saving souls, and that on earth the devil is working to destroy souls through deception, disease, destruction and delusions.

In this thread the question is.. Is God revealing an end time government that so controls the world that all the world would and has to worship Satan? Is Satan's end game to rule the world? Does he want to be worship as god? Does God reveal it to His children so that they may not be a part of the financial, political, religious force that will rule the world? When you answer these questions, then comes the next questions, who what where when and how.
 
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