United Methodist/ELCA beliefs

KagomeShuko · Oct 17, 2019

My home church is a 45 minute drive away from the city where I live. I've been involved in some ministries at a local United Methodist Church as well as the United Methodist college ministry.

I read through the Methodist beliefs and they seem that they are basically the same as the ELCA (Evangelical Lutheran Church in America).

The one thing that I've heard mentioned that is different is that Wesley believed humans could become holy on this earth. The ELCA doesn't say this does or doesn't happen and says "God works how God works" and that the message of the Gospel is what matters.

Everything else seems the same.
Confession (not like Catholic, to God and to our neighbors - if we want to confess aloud to our neighbors or pastor, fine, but confessing to God is what matters). There might be a general time of confession in a worship service.

Two sacraments - communion and baptism and they are both a means of God's grace.

Communion/Eucharist - the Real Presence of Christ in and under the bread and wine/grape juice

Baptism - a means of God's grace to welcome one into the family of God

Confirmation - when a person is ready to let others know, publicly, that they do have this faith in God and Jesus (because I can't think of a better way to phrase it).

Is this right?

tampasteve · Oct 17, 2019

I am not the person to comment on the core beliefs, but in general the service at an ELCA Lutheran church will be higher, unless you seek a "contemporary" service out. It seems most ELCA minsters still wear some vestments, and the liturgy will be more set and superficially almost identical to a Catholic Mass. All services following the traditional Liturgy will have a general confession and absolution, some contemporary liturgies leave it out (sadly).

I am ELCA Lutheran and have been to 5 or 6 parishes and this has been my experience. I went to a UMC church through high school and college, but they were pretty low church, essentially a non-denominational church in style.

Methodized · Oct 17, 2019

KagomeShuko said:
My home church is a 45 minute drive away from the city where I live. I've been involved in some ministries at a local United Methodist Church as well as the United Methodist college ministry.

I read through the Methodist beliefs and they seem that they are basically the same as the ELCA (Evangelical Lutheran Church in America).

Is this right?

The ELCA and the UMC are in full communion. So we have declared that our beliefs are equivalent/compatible with each other. UM pastors can serve in the ELCA and visa versa. Also, our sacramental theology is very similar. I’ve helped serve communion in an ELCA church and the liturgy is so similar to the UMC that I don’t really need to look at the hymnal much.

As said about, ELCA church tend to be more formal (high church) than many UMC churches. But that depends on which UM church you grew up in. I’ve pastors some very formal UM congregations that could easily be mistaken for an ELCA worship service.

If suddenly there were no UM congregations the ELCA would feel like a very compatible alternative to me.

Rawtheran · Oct 19, 2019

KagomeShuko said:
My home church is a 45 minute drive away from the city where I live. I've been involved in some ministries at a local United Methodist Church as well as the United Methodist college ministry.

I read through the Methodist beliefs and they seem that they are basically the same as the ELCA (Evangelical Lutheran Church in America).

The one thing that I've heard mentioned that is different is that Wesley believed humans could become holy on this earth. The ELCA doesn't say this does or doesn't happen and says "God works how God works" and that the message of the Gospel is what matters.

Everything else seems the same.
Confession (not like Catholic, to God and to our neighbors - if we want to confess aloud to our neighbors or pastor, fine, but confessing to God is what matters). There might be a general time of confession in a worship service.

Two sacraments - communion and baptism and they are both a means of God's grace.

Communion/Eucharist - the Real Presence of Christ in and under the bread and wine/grape juice

Baptism - a means of God's grace to welcome one into the family of God

Confirmation - when a person is ready to let others know, publicly, that they do have this faith in God and Jesus (because I can't think of a better way to phrase it).

Is this right?

Having attended both I can say that the ELCA and the UMC are similar in some regards but are also very different. As others have stated the ELCA tends to be much more focused on tradition, the sacraments, and are very liturgical much more so than the UMC. The UMC generally tends to be more evangelical and low church. The UMC also tends to be more focused on Redemptive theology whereas the Lutheran Church are more Augustinian in their beliefs. I think you'd be fine attending a Methodist church though and even becoming a member if you wanted.

Methodized · Oct 19, 2019

Rawtheran said:
Having attended both I can say that the ELCA and the UMC are similar in some regards but are also very different. As others have stated the ELCA tends to be much more focused on tradition, the sacraments, and are very liturgical much more so than the UMC. The UMC generally tends to be more evangelical and low church. The UMC also tends to be more focused on Redemptive theology whereas the Lutheran Church are more Augustinian in their beliefs. I think you'd be fine attending a Methodist church though and even becoming a member if you wanted.

The UMC tends to be more evangelical in the south. That is only partially true in the Midwest and not really true in the NE and NW. Methodists in the upper Midwest have a lot more in common with the ELCA than they do with evangelicals.

Rawtheran · Oct 20, 2019

Methodized said:
The UMC tends to be more evangelical in the south. That is only partially true in the Midwest and not really true in the NE and NW. Methodists in the upper Midwest have a lot more in common with the ELCA than they do with evangelicals.

Methodized, thank you for the response! You are right in that I can only speak of the UMC in the West Ohio Conference which tends to lean more Evangelical in it's beliefs. It's really neat to see just how much diversity exists in the UMC

bekkilyn · Oct 20, 2019

There is a lot of Baptist influence down here in the south U.S. Many Methodists were former Baptists and vice-versa and if there is a Methodist church on one street corner, there is a Baptist church on the other, or right around the corner...sometimes even across the street from one another. (And Presbyterian or Church of God/Pentecostal likely somewhere nearby.) Lutherans? Maybe in the bigger towns or cities where "Catholics" are more common.

Methodized · Oct 20, 2019

bekkilyn said:
There is a lot of Baptist influence down here in the south U.S. Many Methodists were former Baptists and vice-versa and if there is a Methodist church on one street corner, there is a Baptist church on the other, or right around the corner...sometimes even across the street from one another. (And Presbyterian or Church of God/Pentecostal likely somewhere nearby.) Lutherans? Maybe in the bigger towns or cities where "Catholics" are more common.

The state I’m in the three largest denominations are (in order) Roman Catholic, ELCA and UMC. Baptists are father down the list. The majority of those are American Baptist Churches, USA and not Southern Baptists.

So in this part of the world Methodists are more like Lutherans and Presbyterians by far than they are like Baptists.

Methodized · Oct 20, 2019

bekkilyn said:
There is a lot of Baptist influence down here in the south U.S. Many Methodists were former Baptists and vice-versa and if there is a Methodist church on one street corner, there is a Baptist church on the other, or right around the corner...sometimes even across the street from one another. (And Presbyterian or Church of God/Pentecostal likely somewhere nearby.) Lutherans? Maybe in the bigger towns or cities where "Catholics" are more common.

The state I’m in the three largest denominations are (in order) Roman Catholic, ELCA and UMC. Baptists are father down the list. The majority of those are American Baptist Churches, USA and not Southern Baptists.

So in this part of the world Methodists are more like Lutherans and Presbyterians by far than they are like Baptists.

KagomeShuko · Nov 22, 2019

So, theology-wise, ELCA/UMC is basically the same is what I'm finding.

Sinner and saint/broken and holy at the same time.
The real presence of Christ is in communion - but that's a mystery, the bread and wine don't literally turn into flesh and blood (Sure, God CAN do miracles with it, but we're eating bread and drinking wine or grape juice)
Baptism and communion are the sacraments and they are means of God's grace.

This one is never a huge deal - do Methodists believe a person can lose salvation or not? In the ELCA, we believe it CAN happen, but we think it is extremely rare and we also say that we do not know how God works and it isn't for us to judge. It is all still a mystery.

I've attended UMC worship and I'm comfortable with it. That's no problem. I do miss the confession at times, but I often can't get out to my home church. There are reasons that I can't attend the local ELCA congregation for reasons of trust issues with that pastor and the congregants.

Rawtheran · Nov 23, 2019

KagomeShuko said:
So, theology-wise, ELCA/UMC is basically the same is what I'm finding.

Sinner and saint/broken and holy at the same time.
The real presence of Christ is in communion - but that's a mystery, the bread and wine don't literally turn into flesh and blood (Sure, God CAN do miracles with it, but we're eating bread and drinking wine or grape juice)
Baptism and communion are the sacraments and they are means of God's grace.

This one is never a huge deal - do Methodists believe a person can lose salvation or not? In the ELCA, we believe it CAN happen, but we think it is extremely rare and we also say that we do not know how God works and it isn't for us to judge. It is all still a mystery.

I've attended UMC worship and I'm comfortable with it. That's no problem. I do miss the confession at times, but I often can't get out to my home church. There are reasons that I can't attend the local ELCA congregation for reasons of trust issues with that pastor and the congregants.

Denominations that are aligned with the Methodist ideology generally don't think that you can lose your salvation but that it is under very extremely rare circumstances possible to reject God's salvation that is offered to them. Essentially salvation is viewed like a relationship and although God will never walk away or reject you its still possible for you to walk away from him. I should note though that there are some people in the Methodist tradition such as myself who do believe in Eternal Security though its rare.

KagomeShuko · Feb 4, 2020

tampasteve said:
I am not the person to comment on the core beliefs, but in general the service at an ELCA Lutheran church will be higher, unless you seek a "contemporary" service out. It seems most ELCA minsters still wear some vestments, and the liturgy will be more set and superficially almost identical to a Catholic Mass. All services following the traditional Liturgy will have a general confession and absolution, some contemporary liturgies leave it out (sadly).

I am ELCA Lutheran and have been to 5 or 6 parishes and this has been my experience. I went to a UMC church through high school and college, but they were pretty low church, essentially a non-denominational church in style.

I'm not concerned with the service type. The ELCA church I attend has both a traditional and contemporary service as does the UMC church.

I don't care if a pastor wears vestments or not. I like traditions, but they aren't important to worship. I'm seeking theological differences.

tampasteve · Feb 5, 2020

KagomeShuko said:
I'm not concerned with the service type. The ELCA church I attend has both a traditional and contemporary service as does the UMC church.

I don't care if a pastor wears vestments or not. I like traditions, but they aren't important to worship. I'm seeking theological differences.

Ah, in that case I am definitely not the best person!

That said, I would believe that Methodists have a closer view to Anglicans/Episcopal some things as they came out of that tradition. Overall I think you will have a view of the Eucharist that is much more similar to the Anglican low church view than a Lutheran viewpoint. Outside of that I am really not that sure.

KagomeShuko · Feb 5, 2020

tampasteve said:
Ah, in that case I am definitely not the best person!

That said, I would believe that Methodists have a closer view to Anglicans/Episcopal some things as they came out of that tradition. Overall I think you will have a view of the Eucharist that is much more similar to the Anglican low church view than a Lutheran viewpoint. Outside of that I am really not that sure.

Anglicans, Lutherans, and Methodists all believe in the real presence of Christ in and under the elements when it comes to the Eucharist.

It just seems that Lutherans and Anglicans take the "as often as you can" more seriously than the Methodists do, which is not a huge deal.

Episcopal/Anglican beliefs are pretty much identical to Lutheran when it comes to theology. They are more stuffy, though. They are very "Catholic" in that way - having discipline handed down from higher hierarchy while Lutherans are very much run from the congregation up.

hedrick · Feb 5, 2020

In my opinion, the mainline denominations, which includes those plus PCUSA, all have nearly the same beliefs. There are beliefs traditionally associated with each. Conservative versions of those denominations still feel strongly about them. But the mainline churches have slowly moved to a fairly common theology.

On communion, I think the most recent UMC position paper is pretty good. It defines a moderate sort of real presence that I think all of us would agree with.

tampasteve · Dec 4, 2020

So, I have come full circle and am back at the UMC. Ironically the same UMC I was baptized in. I have officially transferred from the ELCA and I think this is going to be good for me.

bekkilyn · Dec 4, 2020

tampasteve said:
So, I have come full circle and am back at the UMC. Ironically the same UMC I was baptized in. I have officially transferred from the ELCA and I think this is going to be good for me.

That's actually pretty neat! I was baptized in a Southern Baptist church and can't imagine any scenario where I'd be going back there unless they do a good bit of turning around on their politics.

Welcome back!

tampasteve · Dec 7, 2020

bekkilyn said:
That's actually pretty neat! I was baptized in a Southern Baptist church and can't imagine any scenario where I'd be going back there unless they do a good bit of turning around on their politics.

Welcome back!

It is nice to be back. I was at the ELCA, but through my continued searching and studying, and the ELCA's continued lurch to the more Liberal stance I had to make the move. Theologically I am more in line with Methodism now, and while I consider myself more Libertarian Liberal, the ELCA just keeps going further than I am prepared to support at this time.

TheGoodLight · Dec 13, 2020

Something that jumped out to me about the UMC right away is that communion is open to the unbaptized (although it is advised that unbaptized persons who feel called to accept communion be 'nurtured toward' baptism... May a person who has not been baptized participate in Holy Communion? – The United Methodist Church).

tampasteve · Dec 14, 2020

TheGoodLight said:
Something that jumped out to me about the UMC right away is that communion is open to the unbaptized (although it is advised that unbaptized persons who feel called to accept communion be 'nurtured toward' baptism... May a person who has not been baptized participate in Holy Communion? – The United Methodist Church).

I have read good arguments on both sides about why to, and why not to, allow it. I think the amount of people participating at a UMC that are unbaptized is probably pretty small. Since most UMC don't have weekly communion, the chances dwindle. It is not like TEC or ELCA where it is open and usually have weekly communion.

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