The Restitution Of All Things

FineLinen said:

I repeat: The whole of created life has been made subject to futility/ bondage/ corruption/ disobedience "NOT WILLINGLY".

Romans 8:20 - For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope.

The identical many/polus "made sinners" is the many/polus "made righteous." EVERY LAST ONE!

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Still hanging everything on one misunderstood verse, I see ...17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!
This verse precedes the one you keep talking about, and explains who the many are.

Lazarus Short said:

Another failure to cite the source...his and yours.

Another failure to use quotation marks...FL got that correct.

It is very apparent to me that you two were/are using different translations, so no "Another Misquote" was called for.

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If you don't know the source ,Google will tell you in 5 seconds.

renniks said:

If you don't know the source ,Google will tell you in 5 seconds.

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That is not the point, my friend, and I don't use Google.

Lazarus Short said:

That is not the point, my friend, and I don't use Google.

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What was the point then? I think everyone's on a computer here, if they have questions about a verse it's a matter of seconds to look it up.

renniks said:

What was the point then? I think everyone's on a computer here, if they have questions about a verse it's a matter of seconds to look it up.

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Maybe it's just me, but I like to see correct spelling, grammar, punctuation and citing of sources. If nothing else, it helps make a post look respectable.

Lazarus Short said:

Maybe it's just me, but I like to see correct spelling, grammar, punctuation and citing of sources. If nothing else, it helps make a post look respectable.

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When you're on a phone using a microphone, and you're kind of an old guy you do the best you can.

FineLinen said:

Dear Ren: It becomes evident there are few verses that are not misunderstood by you. That is not in my dept. You must have an encounter with the Lord of Ephphatha!

The many/ the polus are equal on both sides of the God equation. The identical polus "made sinners" are the polus "made righteous", every last one!

Reigning, on the other hand, is for those who follow the Lamb in the withersoever and are a unique group of believers, most of whom cannot spell overcomer.

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You just make this stuff up with zero evidence.... Instead of letting scripture interpret scripture.

renniks said:

You just make this stuff up with zero evidence.... Instead of letting scripture interpret scripture.

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It's not easy on a discussion forum to present a cohesive presentation of an idea, when the data (the Biblical text) is so huge and interconnected. If you manage to do so, it is still rejected by most, but that does not make it false.

renniks said:

When you're on a phone using a microphone, and you're kind of an old guy you do the best you can.

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Sorry about that! Now I feel like an elitist...

Lazarus Short said:

Sorry about that! Now I feel like an elitist...

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Every once in a while my kid let's me use the PC, and my posts get much longer.

renniks said:

Verse please. Are you talking about the healing of the Nations at the tree of life? Sounds like an application of immortality to me, or perhaps a final healing of all our brokenness. But it's already been made clear that all the unrighteous are outside the city so they don't receive it.

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I gave you the list of nations-related action verses in #379. Obviously life goes on post-judgment. Nobody's trapped like a bug in aspic forever. The nations emerge from the fire renewed and walk in peace in 21:24-26, and come for healing in 22:2. The gates are always open. Simple storyline, follows the Christological pattern of cleansing and healing.

So your idea of heaven is what? You're inside sipping eau de vie daquiris while the screams and stench of mass burning rotting putrefying human flesh from outside mushrooms up forever and ever, and you occasionally yawn and wander outside to stretch the legs and spit on the writhing pile of wormy sludge, sneering 'you had your chance but you blew it, nyeahh.'

So what do you do for an encore?

I just saw this on another site, so thought I would slip it in here (no affiliation):

Holy Bible Aionian Edition® ~ Homepage

It looks like it takes an honest stand on "aionios."

Lazarus Short said:

I just saw this on another site, so thought I would slip it in here (no affiliation):

Holy Bible Aionian Edition® ~ Homepage

It looks like it takes an honest stand on "aionios."

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Good find, thanks Laz.

I see they translate the damnationists' favorite Matt 25:46 as:
These will go away into consummate (aiōnios g166) punishment, but the righteous into consummate (aiōnios g166) life."

That's sure to ruffle a few feathers.

"Consummate" is certainly a different spin/bias than "eternal." "Consummate implies an end, a fulfillment.

Lazarus Short said:

"Consummate" is certainly a different spin/bias than "eternal." "Consummate implies an end, a fulfillment.

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The translators appear to be alluding to/ relying on 'consummation of the age' scriptures.
Consummation in the Bible (8 instances)

Interesting choice.

Shrewd Manager said:

gave you the list of nations-related action verses in #379. Obviously life goes on post-judgment. Nobody's trapped like a bug in aspic forever. The nations emerge from the fire renewed and walk in peace in 21:24-26, and come for healing in 22:2. The gates are always open. Simple storyline, follows the Christological pattern of cleansing and healing.

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22 I did not see a temple in the city, because the Lord God are its temple. 23 The city does not need the sun or the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light,and the Lamb is its lamp. 24 The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their splendor into it.25 On no day will its gates ever be shut, for there will be no night there. 26 The glory and honor of the nations will be brought into it. 27 Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.

Nothing about nation's emerging from the fire here....
And what do we know about the book of Life?
"And all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain."

"The one who conquers will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my Father and before his angels."

"And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire."

"And if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book."

Well, that is certainly inconvenient for the universalist. You can be blotted out of the book. You can forfeit your place in the holy city by taking away from the truth told here.

Shrewd Manager said:

So your idea of heaven is what? You're inside sipping eau de vie daquiris while the screams and stench of mass burning rotting putrefying human flesh from outside mushrooms up forever and ever, and you occasionally yawn and wander outside to stretch the legs and spit on the writhing pile of wormy sludge, sneering 'you had your chance but you blew it, nyeahh.'

So what do you do for an encore?

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I'm very puzzled by your little rant here. Missing Glory is a very serious business, and it feels to me like God gives everyone every chance to find their way in before the judgement. I would hate to speculate too much about what heaven is... I don't want to go beyond what we're told. We know there will be a new heavens and a new Earth, so I'm looking forward to exploring the Earth, and especially the wilderness, because I've never found anything more fulfilling on this Earth than that. But who knows? Perhaps I'll spend the first million years on my knees in front of a throne. I doubt that we will be even thinking about the ones who didn't make it in. I suspect they will be somewhere far away, left to themselves, because that is what they wanted.