Women in church

I am going to go ahead and go back to the Episcopal board. I am in good company there.

Isilwen said:

Again, you're opinion is duly noted and rejected.

Click to expand...

Anything can be rejected by anyone. The evidence is not for you, but against you, and so betrays your dishonesty in this conversation. It is not significant to the truth that you can simply render the statement "I reject that."

I believe that the church service of Corinth was the means of social gathering and not the way church service was to run. I can imagine a party type atmosphere with many drunk and woman talking loudly with no form or structure at all. Paul was seeking for some type of order in the church service.

And the next day we that were of Paul's company departed, and came unto Caesarea: and we entered into the house of Philip the evangelist, which was one of the seven; and abode with him. And the same man had four daughters, virgins, which did prophesy. - Acts 21:9

I can imagine these daughters speaking in church and may have delivered a message. The speech was of the Spirit and in order so I am sure nothing was said. I do not have a problem with lady evangelist.

Thir7ySev3n said:

The silent acknowledgment of one's loss in an argument is when substance is replaced by rhetoric, in your case imagining that expressing the emotional state you are personally experiencing, and expecting it you manifest itself into some concrete form that can add objectivity to any argument you have presented.

Click to expand...

See, in all seriousness THAT is your problem. To you this is a debate to be won or lost, rather that worrying about those who are lost and need to be won. I know of people who are in the kingdom of God right now because of women in leadership. Marriages that have been restored because of women in leadership. Addictions broken, lives healed, ministries birthed all because of women in leadership positions. THAT is concrete. THAT is fruit. And I'll take that every time over any argument you have or ever will present.

topher694 said:

THAT is fruit. And I'll take that every time over any argument you have or ever will present.

Click to expand...

Thank you!

You have explained what I was really trying to earlier with much more eloquence than I can achieve!

Isilwen said:

Thank you!

You have explained what I was really trying to earlier with much more eloquence than I can achieve!

Click to expand...

You did fine. With this topic you will always run into this type of behavior.

Arguing with it never works. I look at it as putting the alternative out there so others can decide for themselves knowing I'll always get the same tired push back. I try not to get too worked up about it and even be a little silly with it, but that just gets twisted too. Oh, well.

Isilwen said:

Basically the way that it is stated is what I have. I may not be en English major, but it is indeed my native language and it can also mean what I referred to it as meaning as I am sure you know.

Click to expand...

It was an honest question.....I thought you had other insight or reasons why you read it as the "noted apostle" instead of the written "noted among the apostles." And I did not considered education.

I guess I was wrong and will now take heed to the verse and remain silent, myself.

Emmylouwho,

Paul gives the antithesis of the teaching that humankind came from out of a mother-goddess by his Adam/Eve dichotomy. He's not using it to completely silence women since in other places he writes, women do all the things audibly in church that men do. All. Rather, he's concerned about false teachings (i.e. another Christ) coming into congregations and there were cultic priestess converts who were disrupting worship by arguing with and questioning tenets of the Christian faith during worship in certain places.

Paul was way ahead of his age as to how he viewed women. He mentions a woman apostle and puts naming her first in relation to her husband in another place.

topher694 said:

I know of people who are in the kingdom of God right now because of women in leadership.

Click to expand...

Are you stating that you have spiritual knowledge of those who dwell now in heaven, or that you believe because of.....beliefs?.....that they are there?

Emmylouwho said:

I am puzzled by what Paul says in 1 Corinthians, as I have been to churches where women can speak.

1 Corinthians 14:34-35

34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.

35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

Click to expand...

It's pretty straight forward, women are to remain silent at church. They are not permitted to teach and they are not permitted to ask questions of the pastor during services. I suspect that at the time it wasn't atypical for people to ask questions of the pastor after his sermon. Paul's teaching here is that women are to remain silent and if they have questions they should ask their husband first.

RaymondG said:

It was an honest question.....I thought you had other insight or reasons why you read it as the "noted apostle" instead of the written "noted among the apostles." And I did not considered education.

I guess I was wrong and will now take heed to the verse and remain silent, myself.

Click to expand...

You could very well be right too. That was the reason for my English major comment. It was not meant in a mean way.

It is how I understand it to mean.

Kinda like with fasting. Many people will say that when Jesus said, when you fast to mean that all must fast. "When you fast" can also be read as "if and when you fast" do this.

RaymondG said:

Are you stating that you have spiritual knowledge of those who dwell now in heaven, or that you believe because of.....beliefs?.....that they are there?

Click to expand...

I am talking about people who have said a "sinner's prayer", turned their lives around, and are now serving God where they were not before. Sure, only God knows their hearts for certain, but that's a whole different topic.

Redwingfan9 said:

It's pretty straight forward, women are to remain silent at church. They are not permitted to teach and they are not permitted to ask questions of the pastor during services. I suspect that at the time it wasn't atypical for people to ask questions of the pastor after his sermon. Paul's teaching here is that women are to remain silent and if they have questions they should ask their husband first.

Click to expand...

Could you please join the thread by referencing the specifics of what you disagreed with on the discussion that has already taken place on your points? Otherwise you're just jumping in on top of the discussion to start those points all over again.

Endeavourer,

Yes, indeed. Scholars have concluded the verses by context.

Too, Paul's style's one of quoting an incorrect view of something and then giving the rhetorical "What?!" before refuting it. Therefore, when he says women are to be silent, he's quoting those who would have them to sit down and shut up completely, then after his what?!, he asks them rather slyly if they're more spiritual than others and says all have somethng to give (respectfully).

Endeavourer said:

Could you please join the thread by referencing the specifics of what you disagreed with on the discussion that has already taken place on your points? Otherwise you're just jumping in on top of the discussion to start those points all over again.

Click to expand...

I'm just noticing that there are 93 comments. I don't have the energy to go through all of them over a passage that's plain as day.

Emmylouwho said:

I am puzzled by what Paul says in 1 Corinthians, as I have been to churches where women can speak.

1 Corinthians 14:34-35

34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.

35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

Click to expand...

From my understanding Paul was talking to the women of that church because they were a mess.

It's interesting that just a couple sentences after Paul says women are to be silent in the assembly, he encourages brothers AND sisters to prophesy, which is speaking in an assembly!

I will probably never understand this one until Christ returns. Then suddenly it will seem so simple!

Emmylouwho said:

I am puzzled by what Paul says in 1 Corinthians, as I have been to churches where women can speak.

1 Corinthians 14:34-35

34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.

35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

Click to expand...

I’m sure have already received an array of responses, but I really implore you to seek God about this matter. I’ve asked God the same question because as a woman myself I felt like God couldn’t or wouldn’t do anything through me because of my gender.

But history tells a completely different side to this coin as God had shown me through His Word.

topher694 said:

See, in all seriousness THAT is your problem. To you this is a debate to be won or lost, rather that worrying about those who are lost and need to be won. I know of people who are in the kingdom of God right now because of women in leadership. Marriages that have been restored because of women in leadership. Addictions broken, lives healed, ministries birthed all because of women in leadership positions. THAT is concrete. THAT is fruit. And I'll take that every time over any argument you have or ever will present.

Click to expand...

That was a good attempt to try to "super-spiritualize" your position as opposed to my "win or lose" style of argument, but the truth is that sound doctrine is something to be won or lost, not hand waved. What I find interesting is that you frame this situation as a dichotomy between establishing biblical truth or saving the lost. The only way such a dichotomy can exist is if, negatively (as in, negate-ively, not the emotional connotation), it is presented to a person who says, "If these gender roles are actually biblical I will not follow this Christ" (in which case they are already not following Christ). Otherwise, positively, it was not intended as a gospel presentation to begin with and the subject is not the gospel, but women in church. So your false dichotomy fails to oppose my "win or lose" approach to this doctrine with soteriology and relevant presentations. Neither does the fact that it is not immediately essential for someone receiving salvation negate its importance for Christian living on many levels.

Emmylouwho said:

I only go to churches that I am comfortable being silent in, such as old cathedrals where nobody really says anything.

Click to expand...

That's very interesting.