Women in church

Thir7ySev3n · Oct 16, 2019

Isilwen said:
No wonder non-Christians think of Christianity as misogynist.

That's alright. God is not concerned if people dislike His commands or the way He communicates them. Why do you think Jesus was so excellent at driving people to the point of complete abandonment and trying to kill Him, even attempting to throw Him off a cliff? It has been rightly said that Christ would fail every course in evangelism today, as He was better at being a narrow road than a broad one, causing more to reject than accept Him.

"With the merciful you show yourself merciful; with the blameless man you show yourself blameless; with the purified you show yourself pure; and with the crooked you make yourself seem tortuous." (Psalms 18:25-26)

Isilwen · Oct 16, 2019

Thir7ySev3n said:
That's alright. God is not concerned if people dislike His commands or the way He communicates them. Why do you think Jesus was so excellent at driving people to the point of complete abandonment and trying to kill Him, even attempting to throw Him off a cliff? It has been rightly said that Christ would fail every course in evangelism today, as He was better at being a narrow road than a broad one, causing more to reject than accept Him.

"With the merciful you show yourself merciful; with the blameless man you show yourself blameless; with the purified you show yourself pure; and with the crooked you make yourself seem tortuous." (Psalms 18:25-26)

Maybe it's not really a command as people have been trying to show you?

As I said earlier. I prefer, as a man, learning from a woman. I learn more. I understand more. That is how God made me as He knew me before I was formed.

I will always gravitate towards learning from a woman. Are you going to say that I am sinning?

Thir7ySev3n · Oct 16, 2019

Isilwen said:
Maybe it's not really a command as people have been trying to show you?

As I said earlier. I prefer, as a man, learning from a woman. I learn more. I understand more. That is how God made me as He knew me before I was formed.

I will always gravitate towards learning from a woman. Are you going to say that I am sinning?

Trying to show, and quoting Scripture with its own explicit context are very different things. The context is creation order and creation nature, not culture, time or place. And yes, if you are learning your theology under a woman who pretends to have any authority over a man not her child (or younger women), you are sinning and encouraging an obstinate spirit in her.

Isilwen · Oct 16, 2019

Thir7ySev3n said:
And yes, if you are learning your theology under a woman who pretends to have any authority over a man not her child (or younger women), you are sinning and encouraging an obstinate spirit in her.

Your opinion is duly noted and rejected! There is no encouraging an obstinate spirit, but rather allowing her God given ability to do what it is meant for, teaching.

Any woman I go to hasn't taken the authority by force, or as the Bible puts it usurped. I don't know of any women that have usurped a man in order to teach. So, based on the Bible, they are within their God given abilities to teach a man.

I guess Junia was also sinning by being an apostle and teaching men.

Thir7ySev3n · Oct 16, 2019

Isilwen said:
Your opinion is duly noted and rejected!

I guess Junia was also sinning by being an apostle and teaching men.

Junia wasn't an apostle, and there is a difference between evangelizing and sharing theological insights, and discipling. Exegesis is the way to interpret Scripture, not eisegesis.

topher694 · Oct 16, 2019

Thir7ySev3n said:
Trying to show, and quoting Scripture with its own explicit context are very different things. The context is creation order and creation nature, not culture, time or place. And yes, if you are learning your theology under a woman who pretends to have any authority over a man not her child (or younger women), you are sinning and encouraging an obstinate spirit in her.

Acts 18:24-26:

24 Now a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man and mighty in the Scriptures, came to Ephesus. 25 This man had been instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in spirit, he spoke and taught accurately the things of the Lord, though he knew only the baptism of John. 26 So he began to speak boldly in the synagogue. When Aquila and Priscilla heard him, they took him aside and explained to him the way of God more accurately.

Uh-oh!

Thir7ySev3n · Oct 16, 2019

topher694 said:
Acts 18:24-26:

24 Now a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man and mighty in the Scriptures, came to Ephesus. 25 This man had been instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in spirit, he spoke and taught accurately the things of the Lord, though he knew only the baptism of John. 26 So he began to speak boldly in the synagogue. When Aquila and Priscilla heard him, they took him aside and explained to him the way of God more accurately.

Uh-oh!

I am amused you think that is an uh-oh. You both have a woman accompanying her husband, and a woman sharing theological insights, not discipling (teaching in authority).

"Uh oh"

topher694 · Oct 16, 2019

Thir7ySev3n said:
I am amused you think that is an uh-oh. You both have a woman accompanying her husband, and a woman sharing theological insights, not discipling (teaching in authority).

"Uh oh"

Oh please, look whose redefining things to fit his narrative now.

I'm guessing you are a blast at parties.

Isilwen · Oct 16, 2019

Thir7ySev3n said:
Junia wasn't an apostle

Romans 16:7 King James Version (KJV)
7 Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellow-prisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.

a·pos·tle
/əˈpäsəl/

noun
noun: Apostle; plural noun: Apostles
each of the twelve chief disciples of Jesus Christ.
any important early Christian teacher, especially St. Paul.
noun: apostle; plural noun: apostles

~Google search (I italicized, bolded and underlined the four words above)

You were saying?

Thir7ySev3n · Oct 16, 2019

topher694 said:
Oh please, look whose redefining things to fit his narrative now.

I'm guessing you are a blast at parties.

It is not my definition, it is the Scripture's. This is why a woman is commended for evangelizing, bringing up godly children and younger women, and sharing her knowledge of the Scripture, but commanded not to usurp authority, but to learn in full submission.

And only a child of a man would care if he is a "blast at parties." I'd rather being boring and right than entertaining and wrong.

RaymondG · Oct 16, 2019

Why not let women who want to teach, teach and those that want to be silent remain silent? Why not let the men who desire to be taught by women, be taught by women, and those who want only men teachers, have only men teachers?

"He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still."

Now stand, I say, in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free and be not entangled again in yokes of bondage.

topher694 · Oct 16, 2019

Thir7ySev3n said:
It is not my definition, it is the Scripture's. This is why a woman is commended for evangelizing, bringing up godly children and younger women, and sharing her knowledge of the Scripture, but commanded not to usurp authority, but to learn in full submission.

And only a child of a man would care if he is a "blast at parties." I'd rather being boring and right than entertaining and wrong.

Oh but that's exactly my point! You ARE entertaining AND wrong.

Maria Billingsley · Oct 16, 2019

Emmylouwho said:
I am puzzled by what Paul says in 1 Corinthians, as I have been to churches where women can speak.

1 Corinthians 14:34-35

34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.

35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

We should keep in mind that the Church in Corinth was dealing with a lot of Pagan influence. IMO, Paul was thwarting any attempts to merge other well known cults of that time, more specifically the cult of Isis. It was obvious this cult was creeping in through both men and women.

In this brief synopsis, we can see that women played a significant role in this cult in contrast to no role in Judaism. Paul was probably witnessing error within the church of Corinth when some women began to disrupt, control or misguide the congregation. The shame most likely stemmed from women who's behavior was not in keeping with the Holy Spirit, the Will of the Father. This is not to say that men were not just as much in error.

"The cult mainly concerned itself with concepts of material sacrifice (such as fasting and donations of wealth), and rituals involving symbolic death and the revelations of cult secrets. Unlike other mystery religions, there were both yearly rituals and daily services. Not only this, but there was a very public display of devotion to Isis, with temples, devoted priests, and the worshipers in her honor. Most evidence suggests that the cult of Isis was the largest competitor for Christianity in the Empire, especially concerning the inclusion of women as priests and worshipers equally."

Thir7ySev3n · Oct 16, 2019

Isilwen said:
Romans 16:7 King James Version (KJV)
7 Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellow-prisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.

a·pos·tle
/əˈpäsəl/

noun
noun: Apostle; plural noun: Apostles
each of the twelve chief disciples of Jesus Christ.
any important early Christian teacher, especially St. Paul.
noun: apostle; plural noun: apostles

~Google search (I italicized, bolded and underlined the four words above)

You were saying?

Nevermind the fact that Junia is not actually known to be a woman (research it if you like), but that is not the argument I would use or am concerned with. Women are not agents of authority, and thus can not be an "apostle" by the biblical understanding of their role. The definition you provided is contrary to Scripture, as an apostle is one who is called, not "any important early Christian teacher." The women in the Bible are commanded by the same one who commended their service to learn in full submission not usurp authority over men. So they are not "apostles" by the standard of one who disciples. You would have to fight Paul with Paul (among a plethora of other Scriptures) to make that inference, and thus your argument is self-defeating.

RaymondG · Oct 16, 2019

Isilwen said:
7 Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellow-prisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.

This reads to me, at first glance, that they were respected by the apostles...moreso than they were one of them. Do you have any reason, besides current convictions, that would lead others to read it as the latter?

Thir7ySev3n · Oct 16, 2019

topher694 said:
Oh but that's exactly my point! You ARE entertaining AND wrong.

This is nothing more than red-herring and has ceased to become useful for further conversation.

topher694 · Oct 16, 2019

Thir7ySev3n said:
This is nothing more than red-herring and has ceased to become useful for further conversation.

See, you're so entertaining!

But how about this, this is also entertaining. Just look at these awful sinners:
Iran has world’s ‘fastest-growing church,’ despite no buildings - and it's mostly led by women: documentary

Isilwen · Oct 16, 2019

Thir7ySev3n said:
Nevermind the fact that Junia is not actually known to be a woman (research it if you like), but that is not the argument I would use or am concerned with. Women are not agents of authority, and thus can not be an "apostle" by the biblical understanding of their role. The definition you provided is contrary to Scripture, as an apostle is one who is called, not "any important early Christian teacher." The women in the Bible are commanded by the same one who commended their service to learn in full submission not usurp authority over men. So they are not "apostles" by the standard of one who disciples. You would have to fight Paul with Paul (among a plethora of other Scriptures) to make that inference, and thus your argument is self-defeating.

Again, you're opinion is duly noted and rejected.

Isilwen · Oct 16, 2019

RaymondG said:
This reads to me, at first glance, that they were respected by the apostles...moreso than they were one of them. Do you have any reason, besides current convictions, that would lead others to read it as the latter?

Basically the way that it is stated is what I have. I may not be en English major, but it is indeed my native language and it can also mean what I referred to it as meaning as I am sure you know.

Thir7ySev3n · Oct 16, 2019

topher694 said:
See, you're so entertaining!

But how about this, this is also entertaining. Just look at these awful sinners:
Iran has world’s ‘fastest-growing church,’ despite no buildings - and it's mostly led by women: documentary

The silent acknowledgment of one's loss in an argument is when substance is replaced by rhetoric, in your case imagining that expressing the emotional state you are personally experiencing, and expecting it you manifest itself into some concrete form that can add objectivity to any argument you have presented.

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