Women in church

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I like that idea. If you don’t need it, get rid of it.

I think you misunderstood. I was commenting on Rubiks' observation that some have seen it as an interpolation. I can see why someone would make that argument. But, to take what I said as making a general rule of taking something out simply because one does not like it was neither my point, nor a suggestion I was making.
 
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RaymondG

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Come on, Raymond, give us what we want. What does the mysterious 36 mean?
Your OP stooped at verse 34, which I answered already.....yet you could not understand this. If you open up the OP to include the rest of the bible.....you will easily get a few hundred extra interpretations.
 
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Emmylouwho

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Your OP stooped at verse 34, which I answered already.....yet you could not understand this. If you open up the OP to include the rest of the bible.....you will easily get a few hundred extra interpretations.
But I’m not the only one on this thread who wants to know what verse 36 means. You implied that you had insider knowledge of its real meaning. Please share.
 
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RaymondG

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But I’m not the only one on this thread who wants to know what verse 36 means. You implied that you had insider knowledge of its real meaning. Please share.
You can find the same knowledge, when you go into your closet, shut the door, and ask. Praying aloud is not the way to get it.
 
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Emmylouwho

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I appreciate your honesty in this acknowledgment. (I'm sure you meant 1 Cor 11:5)



Where does Scripture describe this, or point to this as prescriptive?

The gender references in passage of 1 Cor 11 are speaking to men not cross dressing to look like women (which was happening in the temple up the street where people were worshiping in sexual orgies, both homosexual in orientation and with female prostitutes). Paul didn't want the male Christian converts crossdressed with women's hair styles; he didn't want any confusion in the testimony of the Christians to potential converts about what type of worship occurred in the Christian gatherings.

Edited to add: In that day, women who were prostitutes or accused of adultery had their hair shorn. This is also why Paul was wanting the women to not have shorn hair - so no one misunderstood the nature of their worship, and also so their good would not be spoken of as evil.
I thought they stoned the prostitutes?
 
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Thir7ySev3n

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I am puzzled by what Paul says in 1 Corinthians, as I have been to churches where women can speak.

1 Corinthians 14:34-35

34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.

35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

So, basically, although Paul’s words seem straightforward, they actually don’t mean what they seem to mean?

Paul is being straightforward, and means what you think he means. This is not the only place this is taught in the New Testament (as you may know), and Paul does not allow the interpretation others make to dismiss this command. When Paul teaches the same thing to Timothy, after not permitting the women to teach or exercise authority over men, but to learn in quietness and full submission, what is the context Paul provides for this? Because the Ephesian church was disorderly? Because the culture of their day? No. Paul's context for Paul's declaration is:

"For Adam was formed first, then Eve; and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor." (1 Timothy 2:13-14)

So the context is one which transcends all cultures, locations and times: the order and nature of creation.
 
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paralambano

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Emmylouwho, Paul in other places in his letters has women speaking in churches. They can prophesy, give a teaching, sing hymns, etc..

In context, the idea is that at Ephesus and Corinth, there were temples dedicated to goddesses and some of the female Christian converts tended to bring some of those teachings into the Church. One of them was that a mother-goddess originated humans. That's why he mentions Adam/Eve and how women should adorn themselves (different from goddess-temple worship). These converts were used to speaking out in their religions. They'd bring disorder into worship services by questioning lectors or a reading so Paul tells them to do this with their husbands at home, not while worshipping.
 
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Endeavourer

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Emmylouwho, Paul in other places in his letters has women speaking in churches. They can prophesy, give a teaching, sing hymns, etc..

The idea is that at Ephesus and Corinth, there were temples dedicated to goddesses and some of the female Christian converts tended to bring some of those teachings into the Church. One of them was that a mother-goddess originated humans. That's why he mentions Adam/Eve. These converts were used to speaking out in their religions. They'd bring disorder into worship services by questioning lectors or a reading so Paul tells them to do this with their husbands at home, not while worshipping.

This has also been the conclusion of Biblical scholars who considered the context and the audience of 1 Cor 11.

Diana was the head of a matriarchal worship theology/god. Paul was letting everyone know that women were not to be revered for their gender, as they were in the theology of Diana worship.
 
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topher694

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I am puzzled by what Paul says in 1 Corinthians, as I have been to churches where women can speak.

1 Corinthians 14:34-35

34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.

35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

It boils down to this:
I could easily list a dozen scriptures highlighting and affirming specific women in ministry, old and new testaments. Additionally there are scriptures about ministry leadership & callings that include men and women in a general sense. Yet we have 2 scriptures that folks against women in ministry always point to. God doesn't contradict Himself.

1 Cor 14:34-35 is not Paul's words. It's a quote. Which he does in other places. He is not encouraging this behavior, he is rebuking it. Given the context of 1 Cor 14, I personally believe that the quote is from some doofus in the Corinthian church who actually prophesied what is in verses 34 & 35. If you read the entire chapter in this context it actually makes a ton of sense and it makes it flow much better. Paul is setting this erroneous prophetic word straight. (btw, the erroneous word may have been inspired by what @Endeavourer outlined earlier)

1 Tim 2, when you study the context it boils down to this: Don't tolerate Jezebel. Or in other words don't give someone with a controlling manipulating spirit power in the church. What I find funny about this passage of scripture is these men who point to it that no woman should teach a man (which again contradicts specific biblical examples)... are those same men lifting up holy hands without wrath & doubting (verse 8)? In my experience that is a big fat no. So they selectively apply the scripture to others, but not themselves.
 
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Thir7ySev3n

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For Adam was formed first, then Eve; and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor." (1 Timothy 2:13-14)

How does that justify making women shut up in church?

The key to figuring this out is to stop fooling yourself into thinking your view is significant if it stands in contrast to the Word of God. If you can't do this, then nothing God commands will make sense or be desirable to you if you didn't already enjoy the consequences.
 
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Isilwen

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The key to figuring this out is to stop fooling yourself into thinking your view is significant if it stands in contrast to the Word of God. If you can't do this, then nothing God commands will make sense or be desirable to you if you didn't already enjoy the consequences.

No wonder non-Christians think of Christianity as misogynist.
 
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Emmylouwho

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It boils down to this:
I could easily list a dozen scriptures highlighting and affirming specific women in ministry, old and new testaments. Additionally there are scriptures about ministry leadership & callings that include men and women in a general sense. Yet we have 2 scriptures that folks against women in ministry always point to. God doesn't contradict Himself.

1 Cor 14:34-35 is not Paul's words. It's a quote. Which he does in other places. He is not encouraging this behavior, he is rebuking it. Given the context of 1 Cor 14, I personally believe that the quote is from some doofus in the Corinthian church who actually prophesied what is in verses 34 & 35. If you read the entire chapter in this context it actually makes a ton of sense and it makes it flow much better. Paul is setting this erroneous prophetic word straight. (btw, the erroneous word may have been inspired by what @Endeavourer outlined earlier)

1 Tim 2, when you study the context it boils down to this: Don't tolerate Jezebel. Or in other words don't give someone with a controlling manipulating spirit power in the church. What I find funny about this passage of scripture is these men who point to it that no woman should teach a man (which again contradicts specific biblical examples)... are those same men lifting up holy hands without wrath & doubting (verse 8)? In my experience that is a big fat no. So they selectively apply the scripture to others, but not themselves.
That’s not exactly what I’d call boiling things down. Boiling down condenses; it doesn’t expand.
 
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RaymondG

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For Adam was formed first, then Eve; and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor." (1 Timothy 2:13-14)

How does that justify making women shut up in church?
When you are not ready for the spiritual, you have no choice but to follow the literal. Adam and Eve are One. When they became two is when transgression happens and when silence is necessary.
 
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topher694

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That’s not exactly what I’d call boiling things down. Boiling down condenses; it doesn’t expand.
Since I've done an entire teaching on this with pages and pages of notes, and as I said, could quote a dozen or more scriptures, I'd say boiling it down applies.
 
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