The Preterist Gap

keras said:

This is wrong. Peter just reiterated the same thing; a Hebrew parallelism.
It means solely that for God in heaven; a thousand years of earth time is the same to Him as the passing of one day....Thinking that it also means the other way, simply makes the whole passage useless.

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So do you therefore assert Psalm 90:4 is "useless" since it says 1000 years are as "a watch in the night" as well as a whole day, simultaneously?

parousia70 said:

So do you therefore assert Psalm 90:4 is "useless" since it says 1000 years are as "a watch in the night" as well as a whole day, simultaneously?

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No; Psalms 90:4 is another example of a Hebrew parallelism.

The formula of 1 day to God equals 1000 years of earth time, is proved by the interpretation of Revelation 8:1....there was silence in heaven for about a half hour.

This prophecy is easily converted to earth time, equaling 'about 20 years'. Which is about right for all that must happen between the Sixth Seal and Jesus Return.

mkgal1 said:

I agree with you that 2 Thessalonians ties in to the desolation Jesus and Paul were predicting.
But, obviously you already know, I disagree with you that Paul's and Jesus' audience never experienced what they were told to expect.

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But 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 is telling them that the Lord's Return cannot happen until the DoL takes place.
As the Return didn't happen after 70 AD, there IS a gap and we still await the actual wickedness in human form sitting in the Temple and declaring himself to be God.
Titus never did that!

keras said:

we still await the actual wickedness in human form sitting in the Temple and declaring himself to be God.
Titus never did that!

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.....but these two men are candidates for that claim: Eleazar ben Simon and John Levi of Gischala.


Also.....the Law is done away with (we are in the New Covenant) - so there is no more "lawlessness" without the Mosaic Law (so this had to have occurred in the 1st century).

mkgal1 said:

.....but these two men are candidates for that claim: Eleazar ben Simon and John Levi of Gischala.

Quoting Adam Maarschalk:

Top Two Candidates for the Man of Lawlessness
In this passage, Paul specifically stated that the man of lawlessness was one who:

[1] “opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God” (verse 4);
[2] “the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming” (verse 8).

During the Jewish-Roman War, there were two Zealot leaders who took their place in the temple:

[1] The first one made the temple, including the inner court, his headquarters for about 3.5 years (from the fall of AD 66 until April AD 70). He was killed in Jerusalem in AD 70. That was Eleazar ben Simon.

[2] The second one took over the inner court about five months before the temple was destroyed, precisely when the Roman general, Titus, arrived and began his siege against Jerusalem (from April – August AD 70). He was captured, taken to Rome, and sentenced to life in prison. That was John Levi of Gischala. ~ II Thessalonians 2 and the Man of Lawlessness​

Also.....the Law is done away with (we are in the New Covenant) - so there is no more "lawlessness" without the Mosaic Law (so this had to have occurred in the 1st century).

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Neither of those two candidates for the Anti-Christ did anything like what is prophesied for the real, yet to be revealed man of wickedness.
He will demand worship of himself, on pain of death for those who refuse.

The great problem with preterist beliefs, is how it leaves those who believe that unprovable belief in the dark about what really will happen.

parousia70 said:

Yet the Psalmist also says the passing of a thousand years are "as a watch in the night" to God.
Would you likewise assert, to, as you said, remain consistent, that he is referencing the LITERAL earthly time span of "a watch in the night"?

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The fact he also said it as yesterday when it is past, the watch in the night is referring to the entire thousand years then. We already know that a thousand years are as a day to the Lord. We can't have a day meaning less than a day can we?

keras said:

Neither of those two candidates for the Anti-Christ did anything like what is prophesied for the real, yet to be revealed man of wickedness.
He will demand worship of himself, on pain of death for those who refuse.

The great problem with preterist beliefs, is how it leaves those who believe that unprovable belief in the dark about what really will happen.

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Eleazar joined forces with John Levi at this time, and, after killing Ananus ben Ananus and other high priests in February-March AD 68 AD, together they seized control of the entire city of Jerusalem (Wars 4.4.1 – 4.6.3).

In Antiquities of the Jews and Wars of the Jews, Josephus wrote about a phenomenon taking place in the Jewish world before and during the Jewish-Roman War, especially in Judea and Galilee. During this time, said Josephus, there were “a great number of false prophets suborned by the tyrants [Zealots] to impose on the people.” Here Josephus described the close working relationship between the Zealots and false prophets. Many of the people, he said, were persuaded “by these deceivers,” who were “such as belied God himself” (Wars 6.5.2-3).

keras said:

Neither of those two candidates for the Anti-Christ did anything like what is prophesied for the real, yet to be revealed man of wickedness.
He will demand worship of himself, on pain of death for those who refuse.

The great problem with preterist beliefs, is how it leaves those who believe that unprovable belief in the dark about what really will happen.

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It's simple for futurists to ignore history and make the claim these words will be fulfilled in the future - because that is truly "unprovable".

Some background of these two men:

mkgal1 said:

It's simple for futurists to ignore history and make the claim these words will be fulfilled in the future - because that is truly "unprovable".

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Thinking that the prophesies about the Anti-Christ have been fulfilled in the past requires far better proof than you have given. Those two men were never even national leaders, let alone in world control.
It must be obvious to anyone, that we are in for something dramatic soon. Just the latest news tells us of Turkey becoming involved in Syria. Iran WILL attempt to destroy Israel, as they have threatened so often.
But at the Appointed time, the Lord will intervene and destroy them all. Ezekiel 7:14

This will change the world and enable the establishment of a One World Govt, initially with 10 regional Governors. Exactly as prophesied.
Disbelief of this scenario amounts to rejection of the Bible.

keras said:

Disbelief of this scenario amounts to rejection of the Bible.

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No - please don't get this twisted. I'm not rejecting the Bible. I'm rejecting YOUR interpretation of it.

You claim to perceive fulfilled eschatology as a rejection of the Bible - but I believe that futurists deny God's fulfillment of His promises.

mkgal1 said:

No - please don't get this twisted. I'm not rejecting the Bible. I'm rejecting YOUR interpretation of it.

I believe that futurists deny God's fulfillment of His promises.

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I read and understand the Bible literally. Some is in metaphorical language, but is usually easily explained in modern terms or as a homily.

Futurists, in my understanding; believe that God WILL fulfill His Promises, exactly as He has told us He will.
It is preterists who make out those Promises and threats have all happened in the past.
A very wrong belief, one that simply doesn't fit with history.

keras said:

I read and understand the Bible literally. Some is in metaphorical language, but is usually easily explained in modern terms or as a homily.

Futurists, in my understanding; believe that God WILL fulfill His Promises, exactly as He has told us He will.
It is preterists who make out those Promises and threats have all happened in the past.
A very wrong belief, one that simply doesn't fit with history.

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So, which is the longer period of time?

Numbers 24:17I see him, but not now;
I behold him, but not near:
a star shall come out of Jacob,
and a scepter shall rise out of Israel;
Or
1 Peter 4:7
The end of all things is near; therefore, be of sound judgment and sober spirit for the purpose of prayer.

mkgal1 said: ↑
No - please don't get this twisted. I'm not rejecting the Bible. I'm rejecting YOUR interpretation of it.
I believe that futurists deny God's fulfillment of His promises.

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I totally agree mkgal.........

keras said:

I read and understand the Bible literally. Some is in metaphorical language, but is usually easily explained in modern terms or as a homily.
Futurists, in my understanding; believe that God WILL fulfill His Promises, exactly as He has told us He will.
It is preterists who make out those Promises and threats have all happened in the past.
A very wrong belief, one that simply doesn't fit with history.

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Hello keras.
Not all Futurist agree with each other. Seems most everyone else's view is wrong except yours.......why is that?

This exchange on another thread had me giggling a little........
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My latest chart (number 3)

keras said: ↑
A false teaching of the first magnitude. Nowhere does the Bible say anything of the kind.
Jesus is in heaven, yes; and He said that humans cannot go there. John 3:13, +
THIS is what He did say: Some will be imprisoned and some will be killed, but all must endure and remain faithful until the end. Revelation 13:10
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keras said: ↑
Fanciful dreams.
There is no scripture that says there will be a ‘rapture’, but there is plenty saying such a thing is impossible:
John 3:13 No one goes to heaven, except the One who came from there.
This verse is a plain irrefutable statement, making it mean anything other than waht it says is a serious error...........
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keras said: ↑
More speculation and Douggishness.
Immortality is NOT given until after the Millennium, when it all over and Eternity for those worthy commences.
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keras said: ↑
The armies of heaven are angel beings. Proved by Matthew 16:27....coming with His angels...
In no way is Jesus army humans. Jesus will bring the souls of the martyrs with Him and they will be brought back to life then. Please cease posting unscriptural nonsense.
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That occurs often on this board.................

Preterism turns the illogical/unscripturalness of Futurism into the logical/scriptural.

Matt 26:64 High Priest "ye shall be seeing Son of Man upon clouds of the heaven"
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Preterist Bible Commentary

Jesus, the Son of Man, was LITERALLY Seen in the Clouds in A.D. 66 - Revelation Revolution

Preterism, The Parousia Described: 2 Peter 1:16-18 indicates that the Transfiguration was a Model of the Parousia. This Fact is Confirmed by Yosippon who describes what appears to be the Coming of Christ on the Clouds in a Radiant Form similar to the Description of Christ during the Transfiguration.

The fact that Jesus was expected to appear in the radiant glory of His post-ascension resurrection body at the time of the parousia is also implied in 2 Peter 1:16-18:

For we did not follow cleverly devised tales when we made known to you the power and coming [parousia] of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of His majesty. For when He received honor and glory from God the Father, such an utterance as this was made to Him by the Majestic Glory, ‘This is My beloved Son with whom I am well-pleased’— and we ourselves heard this utterance made from heaven when we were with Him on the holy mountain.

2 Peter 1:16-18 is a description of the transfiguration. During the transfiguration, Jesus appeared to the disciples in the likeness of a being of light. (Matthew 17, Mark 9, Luke 9) What is interesting about this description of the transfiguration is that the Greek word translated coming in v. 16 is parousia, the same word often used to refer to the second coming throughout the New Testament. The fact that Peter uses the word parousia to describe the moment in which Jesus was transformed into a being of light implies that Peter may have seen the transfiguration as a visionary shadow or model of the parousia, the second coming. The fact that the transfiguration in which Jesus appeared in bright, radiant glory may be a kind of model of the second coming seems to be confirmed by Yosippon’s description of the fiery army in the clouds of A.D. 66. At this time Jesus appeared in fiery radiance in the clouds of heaven bearing the same luminescent likeness of His body at the transfiguration in confirmation of 2 Peter 1:16-18.

It should also be noted that this is not the only way in which the transfiguration was a model of the second coming. According to Matthew 17:5 the Glory Cloud also appeared in the midst of the transfiguration: “While he was still speaking, a bright cloud overshadowed them, and behold, a voice out of the cloud said, ‘This is My beloved Son, with whom I am well-pleased; listen to Him!’” This bright cloud is the Glory Cloud, the quintessential sign of the presence of God. For historical evidence of the presence of the Glory Cloud in A.D. 68 and A.D. 70 see The Appearance of Christ in A.D. 68? and The Coming of Christ in A.D. 70–Like You’ve Never Heard it Before!.



Preterism Explained, “You will see the Son of Man . . . coming with the Clouds of Heaven”: Jesus must have been present at the Head of this Army.

Though Jesus is never identified at the head of this angelic army in the clouds, I believe that it is clear that He must have been. Throughout His ministry, Jesus predicted that He would come on the clouds in the presence of the heavenly host within the lifetimes of those present during His ministry. If this supernatural event did, in fact, occur which literally fulfills Revelation 19:14 and ALL OTHER BIBLICAL DESCRIPTIONS concerning the second coming, then Jesus must have been present at the head of this army on the clouds–this miracle would have been too much of a coincidence if He were not. Furthermore, if Jesus had been identified at the head of this army it could be considered strong evidence that the account of the army in the clouds as a whole is a spurious Christian interpolation intended for apologetic purposes. Since as non-Christians unfamiliar with the details of Christian eschatology, Tacitus and Josephus would never be expected to make such an identification. A more detailed explanation of the evidence of the historical reliability of this event will be discussed later.

Thanks for reprinting my comments, LLoJ.

Preterism is for those who:
A/ Are terrified of what they read in the prophesies, so their solution is to biff it all into the past.
B/ Can't be bothered to try and understand the Prophesies.
C/ Fondly imagine they will carry on with their cozy lifestyle, until Jesus Returns.

Good luck to them, I prefer to have some idea of what God has planned for His people in the end times.

Christian Gedge said:

Don’t confuse the literalists.

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The post by Ed Parenteau, with 2 completely unrelated prophesies, is confusion alright!

Mr. Keras, of course they're related. It might confuse your futurist doctrine, but I'm not the least bit confused.

First and foremost by:
2 Tim 3:16 "All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work."

Secondly, by prophesying the first coming of Christ in Numbers 24:17, we see the fulfillment in:
Matthew 2: 1Now after Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judea in the days of Herod the king, behold, wise men from the east came to Jerusalem, 2saying, “Where is he who has been born king of the Jews? For we saw his star when it rose and have come to worship him.”
Hebrews 1:8 But of the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom.

Thirdly, The God breathed word in both prophesies is "near". In Numbers 24:17 it is used as "not near", and after all, it was around ~1800 years before its ultimate fulfillment.
It just turns out that the God breathed word "near" in the New Testament doesn't mean "near" to futurists as they just use their handy dandy scripture eraser: 2 Peter 3:8 But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day.
But it turns out that the definition of near, is, well, near :
Original Word: ἐγγύς
Part of Speech: Adverb
Transliteration: eggus
Phonetic Spelling: (eng-goos')
Definition: near (in place or time)

Here's another question for futurists. When is/was this mustard seed planted: Past or future?

Matt 13: 31He presented another parable to them, saying, “The kingdom of heaven is like a mustard seed, which a man took and sowed in his field; 32and this is smaller than all other seeds, but when it is full grown, it is larger than the garden plants and becomes a tree, so that THE BIRDS OF THE AIR come and NEST IN ITS BRANCHES.”

And when is/are the 3 pecks of leaven added to the bunch?

33He spoke another parable to them, “The kingdom of heaven is like leaven, which a woman took and hid in three pecks of flour until it was all leavened.”

The time is near for the prophesies to be fulfilled:
Here is an interesting dissertation on this,

Ecclesiasticus 15:11-20 Do not say; ‘The Lord is to blame for my going astray’. it is for you to avoid what he hates. Do not say; ‘I was led into error’. The Lord has no use for a sinner. He hates every kind of vice, you cannot love sinful things and still fear Him.

When, in the beginning God created mankind, He left them free to make their own decisions. If you choose, you can observe the Commandments, you can keep faith if you are so minded. He has set before you fire and water – reach out and make your choice. Mortals are offered life or death, whichever they prefer will be given to them.
For great is the wisdom of the Lord, He is mighty in power and all seeing. His eyes are on all, no human action escapes His notice. He has commanded no one to be impious, to none has he given a license to sin.

Ecclesiasticus 16:6-17 Where sinners assemble, fire breaks out – retribution blazes up when a nation is disobedient. There was no pardon for the giants of old who rebelled in their strength. There was no reprieve for Lot’s adopted home, abhorrent in its arrogance. There was no mercy for that doomed people, exterminated in their sin. No even one stubborn person can escape punishment, for mercy and anger belong to the Lord – He shows His power now in forgiveness, now in overflowing anger. His mercy is great, but so is His condemnation, He judges people by what each has done. He does not let a wrongdoer escape or try the patience of the godly for too long. Everyone is treated according to their deeds. Do not say; I am hidden from the Lord, who up there gives a thought to me?, among so many I will not be noticed.


Ecclesiasticus 16:18-23 The highest heaven, the earth and the abyss are shaken at His coming. The mountains and the foundations of the world tremble when he looks upon them. What mortal mind can comprehend the ways of the Lord? As a storm can take people unawares, for the most part His works are done in secret. Who is to declare His acts of justice, their fulfilment being so remote? But these are the thoughts of a small mind, the lack of sense of a misguided person.


Ecclesiasticus 36:1-10 Look on us with pity, Lord God of all and strike fear into every nation. Lift Your hand against the heathen and let then behold Your power. Let them learn, as we have; that there is no God but You. Renew Your signs, repeat Your miracles, win glory for Your mighty Right hand and pour out Your anger and wrath to destroy the enemy. Remember the Day You have appointed and hasten it, give us cause to recount Your wonders. Let burning wrath devour the oppressors of Your people, so the hostile and arrogant meet their doom.


Ecclesiasticus 36:11-17 Gather all the tribes of Israel and grant them their inheritance, as You did so long ago. Have compassion, Lord, on Your people, on Israel, named as Your firstborn. Show mercy to Jerusalem, Your sanctuary, fill Zion with the praise of Your triumph and the Temple with Your glory.
Now is the time to fulfil those prophecies given in Your Name, to prove Your prophets correct.

Listen now, Lord, to the prayers of Your servants, reward those who look to You in trust and claim the blessings promised to Your people. Let all who live on earth acknowledge that You are the Eternal God.

Reference: Revised English Bible Apocrypha.

keras said:

The time is near for the prophesies to be fulfilled:
Here is an interesting dissertation on this,

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Honestly, I'm not seeing it as a dissertation on the "time is near" as much as it is a prayer to "hasten the appointed time".
On another note, I did find it interesting that it mentions "giants" which reminded me of this quote by Josephus in Book 5 Chap 2 Antiquities of the Jews:
"For which reason they removed their camp to Hebron; and when they had taken it, they slew all the inhabitants. There were till then left the race of giants, who had bodies so large, and countenances so entirely different from other men, that they were surprising to the sight, and
terrible to the hearing. The bones of these men are still shown to this very day, unlike to any credible relations of other men. Now they
gave this city to the Levites as an extraordinary reward. . "

DavidPT said:

The fact he also said it as yesterday when it is past, the watch in the night is referring to the entire thousand years then. We already know that a thousand years are as a day to the Lord. We can't have a day meaning less than a day can we?

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But "a watch in the night" IS less than a day... and the Psalmist says that "a watch in the night", (a time period we know IS less than a day) is the the same as 1000 years to God.
Do you disagree?

keras said:

Thinking that the prophesies about the Anti-Christ have been fulfilled in the past requires far better proof than you have given.

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Right... because we sure can't take John's word for it:

"even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour."

Hey...Didn't you just say one hour = 40 years?