Women in church

joshua 1 9 said:

I am not usurping anything. I do not teach in the church even though I took 4 teacher training classes at the Bible college. My job is to be a servant and to help as many people as I can. I have noticed thought that people usually accuse others of what they are guilty of. Or as Matthew 7:2 says as you judge you shall be judged.

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Could you please reply to all of the information I provided in post #9?

RaymondG said:

The verse means exactly what it says...... No use trying to change it or dismiss it because you do not understand it's meaning. No need finding a better translation to better match your belief..... but instead let the scripture transform your beliefs.

Confusion only arises when we try to figure it out ourselves instead of ask God for wisdom.

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So Raymond, what does verse 36 mean then?

@Endeavourer While I am new to these forums, I just wanted to say that I agree with you on a more basic level.

As a male I found that I learn better from female teachers. I have always gotten along better with females and even today, the majority of my friends are female.

With that said, I prefer learning from a female as it's the best way for me to learn.

Endeavourer said:

However, as you can also see from the detailed explanation above, they misused the word "silent". The word Paul used specifically did not indicate speechlessness.

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This does present a problem because Paul does say that women can give prophecy in 1Cor14:5 "every woman who prays or prophesies" We do see women with long thick hair and long dresses. I do not know where they get that from, but I am pretty sure that it is not a man teaching them to conduct themselves that way. When they pray at the alter they cover themselves with their hair. The young women usually discuss that among themselves to decide how they want to conduct themselves in the church and how they want to represent the church to the world.

Endeavourer said:

So Raymond, what does verse 36 mean then?

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Dont forget verse 37: "37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord."

This seem to oppose your view that the statements in the OP(the verses above 37) are somehow wrong and added by pharisees.

joshua 1 9 said:

This does present a problem because Paul does say that women can give prophecy in 1Cor14:5 "every woman who prays or prophesies"

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I appreciate your honesty in this acknowledgment. (I'm sure you meant 1 Cor 11:5)

joshua 1 9 said:

We do see women with long thick hair and long dresses. I do not know where they get that from, but I am pretty sure that it is not a man teaching them to conduct themselves that way. When they pray at the alter they cover themselves with their hair. The young women usually discuss that among themselves to decide how they want to conduct themselves in the church and how they want to represent the church to the world.

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Where does Scripture describe this, or point to this as prescriptive?

The gender references in passage of 1 Cor 11 are speaking to men not cross dressing to look like women (which was happening in the temple up the street where people were worshiping in sexual orgies, both homosexual in orientation and with female prostitutes). Paul didn't want the male Christian converts crossdressed with women's hair styles; he didn't want any confusion in the testimony of the Christians to potential converts about what type of worship occurred in the Christian gatherings.

Edited to add: In that day, women who were prostitutes or accused of adultery had their hair shorn. This is also why Paul was wanting the women to not have shorn hair - so no one misunderstood the nature of their worship, and also so their good would not be spoken of as evil.

Emmylouwho said:

Where do you see this going on?

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At a church I attended for 10 years. Actually that was where I took the 4 teacher training classes. Even though most of the people there were young women. They still let me take the class. There were some girls in there that had taken that class something like 16 times. If you take the class 6 times they give you a certificate that qualifies you to be a Sunday school superintendent at any church in the country. So every now and then I think about going back and taking the class two more times. This is an accredited bible college.

Endeavourer said:

Could you please reply to all of the information I provided in post #9?

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I can not add to what you have done or do any better then that. At least not right now, I have already done a lot on this thread.

Emmylouwho said:

I am puzzled by what Paul says in 1 Corinthians, as I have been to churches where women can speak.

1 Corinthians 14:34-35

34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.

35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

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This, along with "women not having authority" over a man, and women "covering their head" during services, have been debated for a long time now, and are used to justify not ordaining women to the Pastoral Ministry. Some fundamentalist denominations may still try to invoke these principles. I have seen women speak during voter meetings, and a few other times when there has been an open floor for conversation, but never during services of any type.

How has this impacted worship? Clearly, there have been some compromises over the years.

Endeavourer said:

Hi Emmylou.

The law being referenced in v. 34-35 is not God's law but is a quote from the Pharisaical writings that they made into laws. Verses 36 and further give Paul's response to his quote of the Pharisaical law.

Many have gravely misunderstood this passage to be Paul saying the words in 34, 35. Paul is just quoting the Pharisees there to refute them in the following verses.

If you do some research you will find the words of verses 34 & 35 in the Talmud Law (the Pharisaical writings), but not the Torah Law (the Old Testament writings given by God).

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Do you have any links or sources to cite for this specific detail? I'm just asking because it's an interesting point but it would help if you could direct us a little more firmly to a specific place in the Talmud(s) where this is stated rather than just say, "It's in the Talmudic Law."

Thanks.

Emmylouwho said:

I am puzzled by what Paul says in 1 Corinthians, as I have been to churches where women can speak.

1 Corinthians 14:34-35

34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.

35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

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Verse 35 explains verse 34.
If women wanted to learn anything/ask questions, they were to ask their husbands at home. I cannot see any reason for Paul needing to say that unless women were calling out in the service or asking their questions to whoever was sitting next to them.
As Paul had already said in chapter 11 that women could pray and prophesy, obviously he didn't mean them to be completely silent - it's unthinkable that he would have told them not to worship God.

1 Cor 14:34-35 is widely regarded as an interpolation. All manuscripts technically have it; although some have these verses in different places in the letter and a few manuscripts have markings indicating whatever scribe copied from thought they were spurious. These verses also conflict with the fact that we see women teaching and prophesizing in chapter 11 of 1 Corinthians.

Emmylouwho said:

I am puzzled by what Paul says in 1 Corinthians, as I have been to churches where women can speak.

1 Corinthians 14:34-35

34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.

35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

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Are you really puzzled? Do you actually have an unsettled position on its interpretation?

Rubiks said:

1 Cor 14:34-35 is widely regarded as an interpolation. All manuscripts technically have it; although some have these verses in different places in the letter and a few manuscripts have markings indicating whatever scribe copied from thought they were spurious. These verses also conflict with the fact that we see women teaching and prophesizing in chapter 11 of 1 Corinthians.

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And it reads like an interpolation. If you read without it:

32 And the spirits of prophets are subject to the prophets, 33a for God is a God not of disorder but of peace. (interpolation vss. 33b-35) 36 Or did the word of God originate with you? Or are you the only ones it has reached? 37 Anyone who claims to be a prophet, or to have spiritual powers, must acknowledge that what I am writing to you is a command of the Lord.

It flows very nicely without it and retains Paul's discussion of prophecy without the rough interjection about women, which doesn't really fit the context.

Emmylouwho said:

I am puzzled because I have heard women speak in church when the Bible says not to. Why do they do that?

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Do you speak in church?