Did we miss our turn somewhere?

Woke

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The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:” Revelation 1:1 (KJV 1900)

And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.” Revelation 22:6 (KJV 1900)

Why is it most still look for the visions of Revelation to be fulfilled in the distant future? When Jesus said they would soon come to pass - nearly 2000 years ago?

Could it be we are like a person who misses his turn and still looks for it 2000 miles down the road? Someone too stubborn to take another look at the map?
I wrote some information on this that I shared with a social media site owner on another site. It will take a few minutes to read.

THE LAST DAYS

Article’s author: messenger aka Woke


In Matthew chapters 24 and 25 Christ spoke of circumstances that occur preceding the world’s end. He didn’t explain how long those last. He didn’t use the phrase “last days,” but he called some of those circumstances “the beginning of birth pains,” while answering the question, “what will be the sign of your coming and end of the age?" (See Matthew 24:3) That question centered on Christ’s return, which is associated with the end of an age. Compare Matthew 13:39-40 to Matthew 24:3 and note that “end of the age,” in those scriptures, means when the world ends. Almost everything he said in Matthew chapters 24 & 25 was in response to that one question, not his apostles’ first question about Jerusalem’s temple stones getting knocked down. Christ’s response primarily consisted of circumstances on Earth before he comes rather than when. Those circumstances could be interpreted collectively as a sign, but only if viewed collectively. Leave one of them out, and the sign is not present per Christ’s words. Part of that sign is a worldwide great tribulation- See Matthew 24:32-34. In those scriptures Christ tells Christians the sign points to his return only once it is complete, totally complete to be redundant.


He started by describing wars, reports of wars, earthquakes and food shortages occurring in various places, and he said some Christians would find those notable, take them as the sign of his return, start teaching the end is imminent, and by doing that mislead themselves and other Christians. See Luke 21:8,9. Christ called those events, “the beginning of birth pains.” But those type of events occur in every historical period. So do you see a couple of reasons why some Christians misinterpret Christ’s answer to his apostles’ question? That phrase, “the beginning of birth pains,” might be one. Some Christians assume the birth must come soon after the birth pains begin, or soon after a part of them begin, without holding Christ to his word that all the things he said must occur before his return. Watchtower is one group that makes that assumption, as it looks to a sign of “the last days,” instead of the sign of Christ’s return. In doing so WT failed to include major circumstances Christ said must occur to form the sign he spoke of, e.g. a worldwide great tribulation, and signs in heaven. The nature of Christ’s answer to the question is a reason some read it incorrectly. Christ incorporated so much information in his answer many people can’t see the tree he spoke about, because of the forest surrounding it, or the forest for the trees, whichever way you want to look at it. They look for a sign of the last days and do not realize Christ was telling us what circumstances will exist in this world from the time he left it, until he comes back. Thus his use of the phrase, “the beginning of birth pains.” Last days to God is different than how some Christians view that term as it was actually used by the apostles in their writings.


{As WT and other religious groups misinterpret Christ’s response as a sign pointing to the “Last Days” of this world, other Christians misinterpret Christ’s response claiming it was a sign pointing to the “Last Days” of the Jewish system in AD 70. Therefore, as I continue, I’ll address both beliefs.}


Christ went on to list how the world would treat his disciples, saying they would live lives of difficulty. Trying circumstances for Christians did not stop when Jerusalem was destroyed. They continue to this day. And they do not start and then stop and then start again, as if they occur during two or more time periods separated by breaks. Christian persecutions and betrayals occur during one time period. And it’s a long one. It’s from the time Christ died, until he returns. In another descriptor Christ said the good news will first be preached among all the nations, and then the end will come. The good news continues to be preached in all the nations. Again he did not cite preaching as a signal of Jerusalem’s end-see my 1st paragraph. Like Christian persecution, the preaching didn’t start and stop only to start again. It continues over one long time period. Preaching and trying circumstances were just part of the sign. Many of the circumstances Christ spoke of while answering that question take place over one long unbroken stream of time. However, not all. But at Luke chapter 21 Christ said the Jewish people would be scattered among the nations until “the appointed times of the nations” are fulfilled. And the “appointed time of the nations” is also a long period of time.


Now, how did New Testament writers use the actual term “last days’, and is it related to “the beginning of birth pains,” or “the appointed times of the nations?” First the term “last days” is not found in the books Matthew, Mark, or Luke. Second the apostles wrote they were living in the last days-See Acts chapter 2 and many other references in New Testament scripture stating that. Third, there is not one scripture written by any New Testament writer that defines the phrase, “last days” that they wrote about, as being limited to those days preceding the end of the Jewish system. Did their “last days” include the days before Jerusalem’s destruction? Certainly, but the apostles’ use of the term extends far beyond it. That is proven by my next point (#4). Fourth, there are scriptures written by Peter, which speak of the “last days” as explicitly referring to days that precede the end of this whole worldly system. See 2Peter chapter 3. The “last days” in those scriptures end when this world is destroyed. No other reference to “last days” in the New Testament tells us when they end. And no scripture in the New Testament claims the phrase last days applies to two separate time periods-there is no last days #1 and last days #2 in the New Testament.


The Last Days in the New Testament are spoken of as:

  1. Existing in the first century.
  2. The only scripture that references their end says they end when the world ends.
  3. No New Testament scripture claims they ended with Jerusalem’s destruction.
  4. New Testament Bible writers did not claim that term applies to more than one period of time.
The descriptors Christ spoke of in answering that question in Matthew 24 continue until he comes, with the exception of just a few. Those few are Jerusalem’s surrounding by armies, and it’s destruction, a worldwide great tribulation, signs in the heavens, and the sign of the Son of man, also occurring in the heavens. Since those other descriptors last so long, then how does that claim, “the beginning of birth pains,” harmonize with what he had John tell us in Revelation, “Look, I am coming quickly?” It does only if we view both ideas in the way Christ had Peter tell us to view the “last days.” Peter linked that phrase “last days” to the end of this whole worldly system. While doing so Peter was admonishing all Christians, living in every century, just as Christ was doing by giving his answers in Matthew 24 & 25. Peter admonished us to remain patient because, “One day with Jehovah is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.” See 2 Peter 3:1-13. Christ admonished Christians to be patient, see Luke 21:8, 9. Both Christ and Peter knew that although the “last days” is a short period for God, it’s a long, long time period to us.


The New Testament Bible writers did not write the “last days” were coming. What they wrote was coming were certain circumstances while the last days exist. Christ had already referred to many of those circumstances that were coming (during the last days) in their discussion with him on the Mount of Olives. That’s what they were referring to. During his response on the Mount of Olives Christ warned them of their persecutions, the betrayal of individual Christians by others, and the love of the greater number of people in the world cooling off. Paul, Peter, James, Jude, and John wrote about those things in their letters.


In an effort to promote its view of the last days Watchtower teaches there are distinctly different types of events described at Matthew 24:6, and Matthew 24:7-claiming that a different type of war (world war) was spoken of in vs 7, thus identifying world wars as a sign of the last days. Christ wasn’t speaking of different events but the same wars in vss 6 &7. In vs seven Christ was merely repeating what he had already described in vs six. Read those verses here:

vs 6 “You will be hearing of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not frightened, for THOSE THINGS must take place, but that is not yet the end. vs7“FOR nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom.”


The words in vs 7 represent “those things” Christ spoke of in vs 6. Also, the events in vs 6 are attached to the events in vs 7 by the word “For,” used as a conjunction in this case (a connecting word), and a substitute for the word ‘because,’ found at the beginning of vs 7. Also, in biblical days the word nation often meant a conglomerate of just a few cities, sometimes just one city. The apostles already knew of nations rising against nations as they understood how that phrase was used their day. That was nothing new to them. It was as much a part of man’s history at that time as the earthquakes and food shortages Christ spoke of.


Since Christ was asked for a sign of his coming and the end of the world those circumstances I covered at some length were just part of the sign. According to vss 32-35 we can say everything that Christ said would happen in Matthew chapter 24 up to vss 32-35 is that sign. That’s according to Christ’s words, not mine, “When you see all these things”. Though all Christians would read those words only one generation of Christians is represented by the pronoun YOU, that sees “all these things.” That pronoun YOU, if taken out of context, could have referred to his immediate audience. But it didn’t. In context it referred to a future audience. And that future audience is the generation that will see his coming, and all the things he spoke of. It will be those he referred to as “this generation,” seeing, “all these things.” That means part of his church will be on Earth to see, at least part of this world’s end. Because that generation sees all the things he mentioned, including the end. Christ’s long answer essentially meant, you’ll know it’s happening when you’ll see it happen. In other words, all these other things will happen first, but when I come, it will be obvious to you.


FURTHER THOUGHTS ON THIS TOPIC:

At Matthew chapter 24:

Vs 36 reads, “Concerning THAT day and hour.” (What day?) In Vs 37 the answer given is,”the presence of the Son of man.” So Christ there was answering their question concerning his return. He previously addressed Jerusalem’s stones getting knocked down in vs 15


He was also speaking of his return in Vs 33, “when you see all these thing, know that he is near at the doors.” (Who is HE?) The answer given is Christ in vss 37,39. Yes in vs 33 he was also answering their question concerning his return. Note that he also said they would see, “ALL THESE THINGS, “ in vs 33.

Vs 34 reads, “this generation will by no means pass away until ALL THESE THINGS OCCUR.” What precisely was spoken of as “all these things,” in vss 33 & 34? Read Matthew 24:4-31. Because ALL means ALL or it doesn’t. All does not mean just part of something. “All these things,” were the things Christ said must happen before his return. Christ spoke of a great tribulation, and miraculous signs in the heavens, as well as the many other events WT believes are a sign of the “last days,” before he said, “when you see ALL THESE THINGS,” in verse 33. Then right after that he referred to ALL THESE THINGS again, in vs 34, and it is in that vs that he mentions “this generation.” Just as he used the pronoun you in vs 33 to mean a future generation, not the generation of his present audience, likewise he used that phrase, “this generation,” to mean a future audience, not that generation of his present audience.


Vs 34 “Truly I say to you that this generation will by no means pass away until ALL THESE THINGS occur.”

If WT was any good at interpreting scripture they would realize Christ was not giving a sign of any last days for two reason. First, the apostles never asked for a sign of the last days. They asked instead for a sign of Christ’s actual return and the end of the world. And second, and more profoundly, after giving the sign they asked for Christ spent the rest of his speech telling that Christians would not know when he would return, or when the world would end, until they saw those two things taking place. And that speech continues with Christ giving examples of Christians not knowing, being totally unaware of what was about to take place, through the rest of chapter 24, and all of chapter 25
 
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Woke

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Well we still have to try! That is the call of Jesus .
You are correct, the great tribulation does not happen to destroy all people. If God wanted to do that during it Christ would just do it, and do it quickly. There would be no reason for any separating of people once Christ returns after it. Revelation 3:10 calls the great tribulation a trial or test. It happens to test the beliefs of people who have not fully accepted God, to see if they will still stubbornly refuse God. Revelation claims a great crowd will come out after having passed that trial. Not just Jews will turn to God. So will some Christians who are not accepted by Christ as his church before it starts.

As you stated it makes the most sense that God does not turn his attention again to the nation of Israel until the Great Tribulation starts. The reason is that scriptures claim he does not do that UNTIL the last gentile member is grafted into the church. And millions of gentiles are being born all the time before it starts. God will not stop them from turning to Christ in order turn his attention to Israel.

Christ might leave some of his church members on Earth during the GT? And why do I say that? Two reasons. First when speaking to the churches in Revelation chapter 3 Christ promised to save SOME of them from the trial only IF they did something (Rev 3:10). So, what happens to those who don't? Obviously they go through that trial. The second reason is because a great witness will be given during the great tribulation, so people turn to Christ. All I hear from churches who speculate on the identity of the two witnesses are ideas about just two individuals. I assert Revelation is so symbolic the number two might be a symbolic metaphor; because everything God does is effective, and this world is a large place, much too large for two people to give a through witness to. Christ comes after the great tribulation per his words in Matthew chapter 24, and that's when he destroys those left alive, those who did not repent during the great tribulation.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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You are correct, the great tribulation does not happen to destroy all people. If God wanted to do that during it Christ would just do it, and do it quickly. There would be no reason for any separating of people once Christ returns after it. Revelation 3:10 calls the great tribulation a trial or test. It happens to test the beliefs of people who have not fully accepted God, to see if they will still stubbornly refuse God. Revelation claims a great crowd will come out after having passed that trial. Not just Jews will turn to God. So will some Christians who are not accepted by Christ as his church before it starts.
.
Great post and glad to see you brought up Reve 3:10
Have you also looked at Reve 2:10?

Luke 21:12
“But before all these things, they will lay their hands on you and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and prisons<5438> [Revelation 2:10].
You will be brought before kings and rulers for My name’s sake.
================
Please check out my thread on that verse. Thanks.

Revelation 2:10 "tribulation 10 days"

Revelation 2:10
Yet no thou be fearing! which-things thou are being about to be suffering
Behold! the Devil is being about to be casting ye into a prison<5438>, that ye may be being tried. And ye shall be having tribulation ten days, [Luke 21:12]
Be thou becoming faithful until death! and I shall be giving to thee the crown of the life.
 
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Woke

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Jesus Christ of Nazareth was announcing prophetic warnings to Jerusalem in His generation. He detailed exactly what would happen and it did happen in 70 AD.

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! See! Your house is left to you desolate; for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, 'Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!'" (Matt. 23:37-39).

Yes But you also know about this in Romans chapter 11, right?

And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24For if you were cut from a wild olive tree, and contrary to nature were grafted into one that is cultivated, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!

25I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you will not be conceited: A hardening in part has come to Israel, until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. 26And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:

“The Deliverer will come from Zion;

He will remove godlessness from Jacob.

27And this is My covenant with them

when I take away their sins.”
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Who pierced Jesus? These people will "see Him" so are they alive or are they dead?
Well let's see.
After 2000 yrs..............:

Revelation 1:7 "....and every eye shall be seeing Him......"

Will every eye in the global world view this event literally?
I will be putting up commentaries on it as this thread progresses.
Discuss

Revelation 1:7
Behold! He is coming with the clouds, and shall-be-seeing/oyetai <3700> (5695) Him Every eye/ofqalmoV <3788> , even who any Him they pierce<1574>.
And shall be wailing/grieving<2875> over Him all the Tribes of the Land. Yea Amen.
[Jeremiah 4:13/Zechariah 12:10]

Pulpit Commentary
Verses 7, 8. - It is difficult to determine the exact connexion of these verses with one another, and with what precedes and follows. It seems best to make ver. 7 a kind of appendix to the salutation, and ver. 8 a kind of prelude to the whole book. They each give us one of the fundamental thoughts of the Apocalypse; ver. 7, Christ's certain return to judgment; ver. 8, his perfect Divinity. Verse 7. - He cometh. He who loveth us and cleansed us and made us to be a kingdom will assuredly come. While interpreting the verse of the second advent, we need not exclude the coming to "those who pierced him" in the destruction of Jerusalem, and to "the tribes of the earth" in the breakup of the Roman empire. With the clouds. This probably refers to Mark 14:62, "Ye shall see the Son of man ... coming with the clouds of heaven" (comp. Daniel 7:13, "Behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven"). Aquinas and other writers make the clouds symbolize the saints, "who rain by preaching, glisten by working miracles, are lifted up by refusing earthly things, fly by lofty contemplation." And they also; better, and all they who (οἵτινες) pierced him. This is strong evidence of common authorship between the Fourth Gospel and the Apocalypse.

(1) St. John alone mentions the piercing.

(2) Here and in John 19:37 the writer, in quoting Zechariah 12:10, deserts the LXX. and follows the Masoretic Hebrew text. The LXX. softens down "pierced" into "insulted" (κάτωρχήσατο), "piercing" appearing a violent expression to use respecting men's treatment of Jehovah.

(3) Here and in John 19:37 the writer, in translating from the Hebrew, uses the uncommon Greek word ἐκκεντᾷν. The reference here is to all those who "crucify the Son of God afresh," not merely to the Jews. In what follows the Revised Version is to be preferred: "and all the tribes of the earth shall mourn over him? The wording is similar to Matthew 24:30 and the LXX. of Zechariah 12:10. The mourning is that of beating the breast, not wailing, and it is "over him" (ἐπ᾿ αὐτόν). Even so, Amen. Ναί Αμήν, like "Abba, Father" (Mark 4:36; Romans 8:15; Galatians 4:6), combines a Hebrew word with its Greek equivalent (comp. 2 Corinthians 1:20).
==============================
CONTINUED...................
Someone in this thread asked about explaining how everyone can see Jesus ...scientifically. the impact of Rev.8:8 will eject material right out into space! As seen elsewhere in our solar system, the debris will become ionized from the particles in the solar wind making them cuild up a charge until the "clouds" begin to glow like the auroras. (plasma) View attachment 263514

View attachment 263515
View attachment 263517
View attachment 263521
 
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Woke

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Great post and glad to see you brought up Reve 3:10
Have you also looked at Reve 2:10?

Luke 21:12
“But before all these things, they will lay their hands on you and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and prisons<5438> [Revelation 2:10].
You will be brought before kings and rulers for My name’s sake.
================
Please check out my thread on that verse. Thanks.

Revelation 2:10 "tribulation 10 days"

Revelation 2:10
Yet no thou be fearing! which-things thou are being about to be suffering
Behold! the Devil is being about to be casting ye into a prison<5438>, that ye may be being tried. And ye shall be having tribulation ten days, [Luke 21:12]
Be thou becoming faithful until death! and I shall be giving to thee the crown of the life.
Christ starts by addressing what he called the church of Smyrna; but notice what he says in that last line, vs11 "He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches." So we see he was actually giving this warning to Christians in the "churches."

__________________________________________________________________________________
Revelation chapter 2:

8To the angel of the church in Smyrna write:

These are the words of the First and the Last, who died and returned to life.

9I know your affliction and your poverty—though you are rich! And I am aware of the slander of those who falsely claim to be Jews, but are in fact a synagogue of Satan.

10Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Look, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison to test you, and you will suffer tribulation for ten days. Be faithful even unto death, and I will give you the crown of life.

11He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. The one who is victorious will not be harmed by the second death.
_________________________________________________________________________________

Separating vs 10 from the context reveals something about this also. See vs 10- "you will suffer tribulation for ten days. Be faithful even unto death, and I will give you the crown of life." It tells us the test is more than 10 days in prison. Why? Because something more than a 10 day prison cell causes death.

Not approaching each Christian in the same way is a more effective way for the Devil to try Christians. But if it only meant prison, even if it only meant that congregation-which I do not believe correct- then even Christians in one congregation are not all the same. The Devil is intelligent enough to know that. Just 10 days in prison is not enough to accomplish what he is attempting to do. Now if the admonition is meant for all Christians then history proves the number 10 is symbolic, as many Christians were jailed a lot longer for taking their Christian stand.

The number 10 there represents a complete test. That's why Christ said this, " Be faithful even unto death, and I will give you the crown of life." Christians are given the crown of life when they are faithful to the end-See Matthew 24:13, "But the one who endures to the end will be saved."

In your scripture Christ did not say they would all die because of the test. If application of the scripture is extended then the idea in Matthew 24:13 is included, and that idea applies to all Christians.
 
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Neogaia777

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Christ starts by addressing what he called the church of Smyrna; but notice what he says in that last line, vs11 "He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches." So we see he was actually giving this warning to Christians in the "churches."

__________________________________________________________________________________
Revelation chapter 2:

8To the angel of the church in Smyrna write:

These are the words of the First and the Last, who died and returned to life.

9I know your affliction and your poverty—though you are rich! And I am aware of the slander of those who falsely claim to be Jews, but are in fact a synagogue of Satan.

10Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Look, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison to test you, and you will suffer tribulation for ten days. Be faithful even unto death, and I will give you the crown of life.

11He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. The one who is victorious will not be harmed by the second death.
_________________________________________________________________________________

Separating vs 10 from the context reveals something about this also. See vs 10- "you will suffer tribulation for ten days. Be faithful even unto death, and I will give you the crown of life." It tells us the test is more than 10 days in prison. Why? Because something more than a 10 day prison cell causes death.

Not approaching each Christian in the same way is a more effective way for the Devil to try Christians. But if it only meant prison, even if it only meant that congregation-which I do not believe correct- then even Christians in one congregation are not all the same. The Devil is intelligent enough to know that. Just 10 days in prison is not enough to accomplish what he is attempting to do. Now if the admonition is meant for all Christians then history proves the number 10 is symbolic, as many Christians were jailed a lot longer for taking their Christian stand.

The number 10 there represents a complete test. That's why Christ said this, " Be faithful even unto death, and I will give you the crown of life." Christians are given the crown of life when they are faithful to the end. And in your scripture Christ did not say they would all die because of the test. He meant in case the test caused death, not that it definitely would.
Ever notice that all the letters are directed to or at "angels"...?

God Bless!
 
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Woke

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Ever notice that all the letters are directed to or at "angels"...?

God Bless!
All the admonition Christ gave to the churches applies to all congregation members. " He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches."
 
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Neogaia777

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All the admonition Christ gave to the churches applies to all congregation members. " He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches."
I do not disagree, but did you notice how it says "angels" though...?

And what's your take on that, etc...?

God Bless!
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Ever notice that all the letters are directed to or at "angels"...?

God Bless!
Yes, that is what I was thinking.
If you look at Reve 1:3, it shows one reading and ones hearing:

Revelation 1:1
An-unveiling of Jesus Christ, which gives to Him, the GOD, to show to the bond-servants of Him, which-things is binding to be becoming In/en <1722> Swiftness/tacei <5034>.
Revelation 1:3
Blessed/happy the one reading and the ones hearing the words of the Prophecy and keepings in it having been written/gegrammena <1125> (5772),
That the Time/Season is nigh<1451>.
=============================
Revelation 2:1 Biblehub versions

Interesting version that uses the word "minister"

Weymouth New Testament
"To the minister of the Church in Ephesus write as follows: "'This is what He who holds the seven stars in the grasp of His right hand says--He who walks to and fro among the seven lampstands of gold.

Young's Literal Translation
'To the messenger of the Ephesian assembly write: These things saith he who is holding the seven stars in his right hand, who is walking in the midst of the seven lamp-stands -- the golden:
===========================
A few commentaries:

Revelation 2:1 Commentaries:
=======================
.Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers


(1) Unto the angel of the church of (literally, in) Ephesus.—On the word “angel,” see Note on Revelation 1:20, and Excursus A. Adopting the view that the angel represents the chief pastor or bishop of the Church, it would be interesting to know who was its presiding minister at this time; but this must be deternined by another question, viz., the date of the Apocalypse. Accepting the earlier date—i.e., the reign of Nero, or (with Gebhardt) of Galba—the angel is no other than Timothy. Some striking coincidences favour this view. Labour, work, endurance, are what St. Paul acknowledges in Timothy, and which he exhorts him to cultivate more and more (2Timothy 2:6; 2Timothy 2:15; 2Timothy 4:5). Again, against false teachers he warns him (1Timothy 1:7). Further, there is “a latent tone of anxiety” in the Epistles to Timothy. The nature with which he had to do was emotional even to tears, ascetic, devout; but there was in it a tendency to lack of energy and sustained enthusiasm. “He urges him to stand up, to rekindle the grace of God, just as here there is a hint of a first love left.” (See Prof. Plumptre, Ep. to Seven Churches.)
-------------------------------------------
MacLaren's Expositions
I. We have in the symbol important truths concerning the Churches and their servants.

The seven stars are the angels of the seven Churches. Now I need not spend time in enumerating all the strange and mystical interpretations which have been given to these angels of the Churches. I see no need for taking them to have been anything but men; the recognized heads and representatives of the respective communities. The word ‘angel’ means messenger. Those superhuman beings who are usually designated by it are so called, not to describe their nature, but their function. They are ‘God’s messengers,’ and their name moans only that.

Note then, first, that the messengers are rulers. They are described in a double manner by a name which expresses subordination, and by a figure which expresses authority. I need not do more than remind you that throughout Scripture, from the time when Balaam beheld from afar the star that should come out of Jacob and the sceptre that should rise out of Israel, that has been the symbol for rulers. It is so notably in this Book of Revelation. Whatever other ideas, then, are connected with its use here, this leading one of authority must not be lost sight of.

But this double representation of these persons as being in one aspect servants and in another rulers, perfectly embodies the very essential characteristic of all office and power in Christ’s Church. It is a repetition in pictorial form of the great principle, so sadly forgotten, which He gave when He said, ‘He that is greatest among you, let him be your servant.’ The higher are exalted that they may serve the lower.

Let us, then, not bandy reproaches from pulpit to pew, and from pew to pulpit; but remembering that the spiritual character of each helps to determine the condition of the whole, and the general condition of the body determines the vigor of each part, let us go together to God with acknowledgments of common faithlessness, and of our individual share in it, and let us ask Him to quicken His Church, that it may yield messengers who in their turn shall be the helpers of His people and the glory of God.
-------------------------------------------------
Benson Commentary

Revelation 2:1. Unto the angel — That is, to the pastor, presiding elder, or bishop, called an angel because he was God’s messenger (as the word angel signifies) to the people, or his minister appointed to serve them. “That there was one pastor,” says Doddridge, “who presided in each of these churches, is indeed evident from the expression here used; but that he was a diocesan bishop, or had several congregations of Christians under his care, can by no means be proved. Nor is there the least hint of it in any of these epistles.” Of the church of Ephesus — Concerning Ephesus, see note on Acts 19:1, and the preface of the epistle to the Ephesians. The first letter is addressed to the church in this city, as it was the metropolis of the Lydian Asia, and the place of St. John’s principal residence. According to Strabo, it was one of the best and most glorious cities, and the greatest emporium of the Proper Asia. It was called by Pliny one of the eyes of Asia, Smyrna being the other; but now, as eye-witnesses have related, it is venerable for nothing but the ruins of palaces, temples, and amphitheatres. It is called by the Turks Ajasaluk, or the temple of the moon, from the magnificent structure formerly dedicated to Diana.
=================================
http://www.kingdombiblestudies.org/tablecontents.htm

Kingdom Bible Studies Revelation Series 31

Now I would draw your reverent attention to a most significant point. The King James Version of the Bible prefaces each message to the churches with these words: “Unto the angel of the church at Ephesus…or Smyrna…or Pergamos…or…write.” It sounds as though John is writing TO the messengers of the churches. But such is not the case! John is by no means communicating the message TO the messengers, rather BY or THROUGH the messengers. In an even deeper sense John is receiving the message FROM the messengers. The messengers are not the recipients of the message from John, but in and with John they are the active force by which the messages are received and delivered to the churches.

Let us UNDERSTAND! Charles Williams in The Place of the Lion made the following astute comment about prepositions. “It was good of you to look for Quentin…or good in you. How accurate one has to be with one’s prepositions! Perhaps it was a wrong preposition that set the whole world awry…” The preposition “unto” in the command of the Spirit to John is, in the Greek, in the dative case. Greek is different than English, and in the Greek language of the New Testament the dative case is used to signify not only “to” and “for,” but also “in,” “with,” and “by.” Let me give you a few examples of such usage where the very same preposition is used that is translated “Unto the angel of the church…write.”

“For if through the offense of one many be dead…” (Rom. 5:15). “For if by one man’s offense death reigned by one, much more they which receive abundance of grace…shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ” (Rom. 5:17). “Afterwards I came into the regions of Syria and Cilicia and was unknown by face unto the churches of Judea which were in Christ” (Gal. 1:22). “That He might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word” (Eph. 5:26). “Who being the brightness of His glory, and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power…” (Heb. 1:3). “Who His own self bare our sins in His own body on the tree…by whose stripes ye were healed” (I Pet. 2:24). “For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old…” (II Pet. 3:5).

The word “by” in each of the preceding passages of scripture is the identical form of the preposition used in chapters two and three of Revelation where it is translated “Unto the angel of the church…write.” But the meaning is that it is “in” or “by” or “through” the angel of the church that John should write, not “unto” the angel or messenger! The Emphatic Diaglott correctly renders this phrase: “BY the messenger of the congregation in Ephesus, write…” There is a world of difference between writing TO a messenger and writing BY or THROUGH a messenger! The true sense of the action is reflected in the following passage where the same preposition is used again, “Until the day in which He (Jesus) was taken up, after that He THROUGH THE HOLY GHOST had given commandment unto the apostles whom He had chosen” (Acts 1:2). What is really being said is just this: “BY the anointing, BY the spirit of revelation, BY the spirit of prophecy, BY the word of the Lord, BY the dispensation of God unto the church at Ephesus…write!
 
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Neogaia777

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Yes, that is what I was thinking.
If you look at Reve 1:3, it shows one reading and ones hearing:

Revelation 1:1
An-unveiling of Jesus Christ, which gives to Him, the GOD, to show to the bond-servants of Him, which-things is binding to be becoming In/en <1722> Swiftness/tacei <5034>.
Revelation 1:3
Blessed/happy the one reading and the ones hearing the words of the Prophecy and keepings in it having been written/gegrammena <1125> (5772),
That the Time/Season is nigh<1451>.
=============================
Revelation 2:1 Biblehub versions

Interesting version that uses the word "minister"

Weymouth New Testament
"To the minister of the Church in Ephesus write as follows: "'This is what He who holds the seven stars in the grasp of His right hand says--He who walks to and fro among the seven lampstands of gold.

A few commentaries:

Revelation 2:1 Commentaries:
=======================
.Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers


(1) Unto the angel of the church of (literally, in) Ephesus.—On the word “angel,” see Note on Revelation 1:20, and Excursus A. Adopting the view that the angel represents the chief pastor or bishop of the Church, it would be interesting to know who was its presiding minister at this time; but this must be deternined by another question, viz., the date of the Apocalypse. Accepting the earlier date—i.e., the reign of Nero, or (with Gebhardt) of Galba—the angel is no other than Timothy. Some striking coincidences favour this view. Labour, work, endurance, are what St. Paul acknowledges in Timothy, and which he exhorts him to cultivate more and more (2Timothy 2:6; 2Timothy 2:15; 2Timothy 4:5). Again, against false teachers he warns him (1Timothy 1:7). Further, there is “a latent tone of anxiety” in the Epistles to Timothy. The nature with which he had to do was emotional even to tears, ascetic, devout; but there was in it a tendency to lack of energy and sustained enthusiasm. “He urges him to stand up, to rekindle the grace of God, just as here there is a hint of a first love left.” (See Prof. Plumptre, Ep. to Seven Churches.)
-------------------------------------------
MacLaren's Expositions
I. We have in the symbol important truths concerning the Churches and their servants.

The seven stars are the angels of the seven Churches. Now I need not spend time in enumerating all the strange and mystical interpretations which have been given to these angels of the Churches. I see no need for taking them to have been anything but men; the recognized heads and representatives of the respective communities. The word ‘angel’ means messenger. Those superhuman beings who are usually designated by it are so called, not to describe their nature, but their function. They are ‘God’s messengers,’ and their name moans only that.

Note then, first, that the messengers are rulers. They are described in a double manner by a name which expresses subordination, and by a figure which expresses authority. I need not do more than remind you that throughout Scripture, from the time when Balaam beheld from afar the star that should come out of Jacob and the sceptre that should rise out of Israel, that has been the symbol for rulers. It is so notably in this Book of Revelation. Whatever other ideas, then, are connected with its use here, this leading one of authority must not be lost sight of.

But this double representation of these persons as being in one aspect servants and in another rulers, perfectly embodies the very essential characteristic of all office and power in Christ’s Church. It is a repetition in pictorial form of the great principle, so sadly forgotten, which He gave when He said, ‘He that is greatest among you, let him be your servant.’ The higher are exalted that they may serve the lower.

Let us, then, not bandy reproaches from pulpit to pew, and from pew to pulpit; but remembering that the spiritual character of each helps to determine the condition of the whole, and the general condition of the body determines the vigor of each part, let us go together to God with acknowledgments of common faithlessness, and of our individual share in it, and let us ask Him to quicken His Church, that it may yield messengers who in their turn shall be the helpers of His people and the glory of God.
-------------------------------------------------
Benson Commentary

Revelation 2:1. Unto the angel — That is, to the pastor, presiding elder, or bishop, called an angel because he was God’s messenger (as the word angel signifies) to the people, or his minister appointed to serve them. “That there was one pastor,” says Doddridge, “who presided in each of these churches, is indeed evident from the expression here used; but that he was a diocesan bishop, or had several congregations of Christians under his care, can by no means be proved. Nor is there the least hint of it in any of these epistles.” Of the church of Ephesus — Concerning Ephesus, see note on Acts 19:1, and the preface of the epistle to the Ephesians. The first letter is addressed to the church in this city, as it was the metropolis of the Lydian Asia, and the place of St. John’s principal residence. According to Strabo, it was one of the best and most glorious cities, and the greatest emporium of the Proper Asia. It was called by Pliny one of the eyes of Asia, Smyrna being the other; but now, as eye-witnesses have related, it is venerable for nothing but the ruins of palaces, temples, and amphitheatres. It is called by the Turks Ajasaluk, or the temple of the moon, from the magnificent structure formerly dedicated to Diana.
=================================
Kindgdom Bible Studies Revelation Series 31

Now I would draw your reverent attention to a most significant point. The King James Version of the Bible prefaces each message to the churches with these words: “Unto the angel of the church at Ephesus…or Smyrna…or Pergamos…or…write.” It sounds as though John is writing TO the messengers of the churches. But such is not the case! John is by no means communicating the message TO the messengers, rather BY or THROUGH the messengers. In an even deeper sense John is receiving the message FROM the messengers. The messengers are not the recipients of the message from John, but in and with John they are the active force by which the messages are received and delivered to the churches.

Let us UNDERSTAND! Charles Williams in The Place of the Lion made the following astute comment about prepositions. “It was good of you to look for Quentin…or good in you. How accurate one has to be with one’s prepositions! Perhaps it was a wrong preposition that set the whole world awry…” The preposition “unto” in the command of the Spirit to John is, in the Greek, in the dative case. Greek is different than English, and in the Greek language of the New Testament the dative case is used to signify not only “to” and “for,” but also “in,” “with,” and “by.” Let me give you a few examples of such usage where the very same preposition is used that is translated “Unto the angel of the church…write.”

“For if through the offense of one many be dead…” (Rom. 5:15). “For if by one man’s offense death reigned by one, much more they which receive abundance of grace…shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ” (Rom. 5:17). “Afterwards I came into the regions of Syria and Cilicia and was unknown by face unto the churches of Judea which were in Christ” (Gal. 1:22). “That He might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word” (Eph. 5:26). “Who being the brightness of His glory, and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power…” (Heb. 1:3). “Who His own self bare our sins in His own body on the tree…by whose stripes ye were healed” (I Pet. 2:24). “For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old…” (II Pet. 3:5).

The word “by” in each of the preceding passages of scripture is the identical form of the preposition used in chapters two and three of Revelation where it is translated “Unto the angel of the church…write.” But the meaning is that it is “in” or “by” or “through” the angel of the church that John should write, not “unto” the angel or messenger! The Emphatic Diaglott correctly renders this phrase: “BY the messenger of the congregation in Ephesus, write…” There is a world of difference between writing TO a messenger and writing BY or THROUGH a messenger! The true sense of the action is reflected in the following passage where the same preposition is used again, “Until the day in which He (Jesus) was taken up, after that He THROUGH THE HOLY GHOST had given commandment unto the apostles whom He had chosen” (Acts 1:2). What is really being said is just this: “BY the anointing, BY the spirit of revelation, BY the spirit of prophecy, BY the word of the Lord, BY the dispensation of God unto the church at Ephesus…write!
I wonder if we have the spirits or/of angels living in us, (or gods) (little "g") and if they are a part of the body of God, (big "G") or His body, or are a part or parts of the Holy Spirit(s) of us all, (of His body, etc) as parts of His (God's) body, etc...

That we are them and they are us, and we are all a part of God, or the Holy Spirit's body, etc, that just as they are, so we are, or so are we, etc...

And if there is a separation there, that it is reconciled in Christ...

Just some of my thoughts anyway...

God Bless!
 
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Neogaia777

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Ever notice that all the letters are directed to or at "angels"...?

God Bless!
And it's calling them (and also us) (but also them) to "repent" (as well), and I find that very interesting as well...

Naming their deeds and calling them to repent, etc...

God Bless!
 
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Woke

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I do not disagree, but did you notice how it says "angels" though...?

And what's your take on that, etc...?

God Bless!
There are somethings that are not clear to me. And fortunately they are not the most important things. So I can only guess.

I have wondered why that word was used there. Here is my best guess.
An angel is a messenger of God. I've used the pseudonym messenger on a couple websites before. Jwsurvey. org and Borean pickets watchtower reviewer. Both sites were started by ex-Jehovah's Witnesses. I myself am an ex-Jehovah's Witness. We all discovered Watchtower to be teaching false truth so we left it.

The owner of Jwsurvey became an atheist. And some who comment there are also, some are still JWs, and some are not JWs, but still Christian to my belief. The founding group of Borean Pickets Watchtower Reviewer are Christians who still hold to a lot of WT false truths, even though they discarded some. You might not consider them Christian, but I do, even though I don't agree with some of their beliefs.

I commented on those sites representing God, as his messenger, though I am not an angel. I don't know everything, but I know I understand scriptures better than them, although they wouldn't agree to that. They believe they interpret scriptures better than me. And have silenced me on their site when I was reasonably presenting scriptural evidence that Christ is God to angels and men, and he is worshiped according to scripture. They silenced me when I showed them other Bible truths also.

I gave you that long story so you can fully understand this next point. Because this next point answers your question. I believe Christ has certain people in Christian churches that he lets understand his word more than others. And that situation exists worldwide. Paul was such a person. I don't believe they necessarily hold a position in a religious church. Some of these and maybe all of them, I believe have been contacted by God.

I believe that's why Christ calls them "angel." I think he meant his human messengers that he expects to represent him, inside any Christian group they attach themselves to. And I believe he used the word "church"to signify those Christian groups they attach themselves to.

Just as Christ picks some Christians to rule over others in his kingdom, he picks some before that time to represent enough truth about him now, and places them various places to stop the good news from being diluted so much by everyone's interpretation that it is no longer effective. It is still diluted, and that is preached. But there is a counter balance effect by Christ's messengers and others they influence in the church.

That was a long answer. The short answer is I believe Christ used the term angel as a designation for some Christians in those groups that he expected to keep, or at least attempt to keep his word pure in those church groups.
 
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Maria Billingsley

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Yes But you also know about this in Romans chapter 11, right?

And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24For if you were cut from a wild olive tree, and contrary to nature were grafted into one that is cultivated, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!

25I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you will not be conceited: A hardening in part has come to Israel, until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. 26And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:

“The Deliverer will come from Zion;

He will remove godlessness from Jacob.

27And this is My covenant with them

when I take away their sins.”
Many Jews are coming to know their Messiah Jesus Christ of Nazareth. The tree is always adding new believers.
Blessings
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Woke said:
Yes But you also know about this in Romans chapter 11, right?
And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24For if you were cut from a wild olive tree, and contrary to nature were grafted into one that is cultivated, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!
Many Jews are coming to know their Messiah Jesus Christ of Nazareth. The tree is always adding new believers.
Blessings
Yes indeed.
The Jews just need to come to belief of the New Covenant age of Grace and Life that is thru their and ours Savior the Lord Jesus the Christ, along with reading the NT thru the eyes of 1st century Hebrew Jews.........

Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized
Matt 24:3 When shall these be?and what the sign of Thy parousia
<3952> and full-end of the Age?

Mat 13:40 “Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age.
Jhn 15:6 “If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.

Is the "GEHENNA" of Matt 23:33 the "LAKE OF FIRE" in Revelation? Poll thread

Matthew 23:33 "Serpents! offspring of vipers!
how? ye may be fleeing from the judging of the Gehenna<1067>

Mar 9:44 where their worm dies not, and the fire is not quenched.
Mar 9:46 where their worm dies not, and the fire is not quenched.
Mar 9:48 where their worm dies not, and the fire is not quenched.
Isa 66:24 “And they shall go forth and look Upon the corpses of the men who have transgressed against Me. For their worm does not die, And their fire is not quenched. They shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.”
===================
Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized
Matt 24:6 Wars rumors of Wars

Visual Timeline of the Roman-Jewish War ARTchive @ PreteristArchive.com, The Internet's Only Balanced Look at Preterist Eschatology and Preterism
"..probably the greatest single slaughter in ancient history."
ROMAN SIEGE AND SACK OF JERUSALEM


 
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You are correct, the great tribulation does not happen to destroy all people. If God wanted to do that during it Christ would just do it, and do it quickly. There would be no reason for any separating of people once Christ returns after it. Revelation 3:10 calls the great tribulation a trial or test. It happens to test the beliefs of people who have not fully accepted God, to see if they will still stubbornly refuse God. Revelation claims a great crowd will come out after having passed that trial. Not just Jews will turn to God. So will some Christians who are not accepted by Christ as his church before it starts.

As you stated it makes the most sense that God does not turn his attention again to the nation of Israel until the Great Tribulation starts. The reason is that scriptures claim he does not do that UNTIL the last gentile member is grafted into the church. And millions of gentiles are being born all the time before it starts. God will not stop them from turning to Christ in order turn his attention to Israel.

Christ might leave some of his church members on Earth during the GT? And why do I say that? Two reasons. First when speaking to the churches in Revelation chapter 3 Christ promised to save SOME of them from the trial only IF they did something (Rev 3:10). So, what happens to those who don't? Obviously they go through that trial. The second reason is because a great witness will be given during the great tribulation, so people turn to Christ. All I hear from churches who speculate on the identity of the two witnesses are ideas about just two individuals. I assert Revelation is so symbolic the number two might be a symbolic metaphor; because everything God does is effective, and this world is a large place, much too large for two people to give a through witness to. Christ comes after the great tribulation per his words in Matthew chapter 24, and that's when he destroys those left alive, those who did not repent during the great tribulation.

YOu have some mistakes in your reasoning's.

1. God promised the church is not destined for wrath but to obtain delverance. Wrath (when not modified) always refers to the 70th week of Daniel or the great Trib as is commonly called. All who are in Christ will be caught up! There is no hint of others being left behind at all!

2. The two witnesses are two people, Just a reading of the passages, even assuming the most symbolic thought, clearly shows them to be two entities. They are killed, the world parties at their death. and after 3 1/2 days they are resurrected and caught up to heaven! Other than a predisposed prejudice, there is no reason to think it is anything other than two people. Who is what is unklnown now!
 
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Woke

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Many Jews are coming to know their Messiah Jesus Christ of Nazareth. The tree is always adding new believers.
Blessings
Note Romans 11:25. The scripture speaks about a time after the last gentile is added to Christ's church. All sorts of people are added until that happens, including some Jewish people. But until the last gentile is added God does not turn his attention to the Jewish people as a selected group. If he did that scripture would be false.
 
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Woke

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YOu have some mistakes in your reasoning's.

1. God promised the church is not destined for wrath but to obtain delverance. Wrath (when not modified) always refers to the 70th week of Daniel or the great Trib as is commonly called. All who are in Christ will be caught up! There is no hint of others being left behind at all!

2. The two witnesses are two people, Just a reading of the passages, even assuming the most symbolic thought, clearly shows them to be two entities. They are killed, the world parties at their death. and after 3 1/2 days they are resurrected and caught up to heaven! Other than a predisposed prejudice, there is no reason to think it is anything other than two people. Who is what is unklnown now!
The church doesn't get a free lunch. Read Christ's letters to them in the first part of Revelation. Those that endure in 3:10 are the only ones spared from the great tribulation in those letters. Nowhere in scripture does it say the whole church is spared from the great tribulation. See Matthew, the last half of chapter 24 and first half of 25. Your idea sounds pleasing, but scriptures don't support it.

As for the two witnesses in Revelation there is no way to prove your point. Because most of Revelation is symbolic. Pastors speculate on who those two witnesses are, and that's probably why you believe there are only two, because that's all you have heard. But if you believe you can prove that, I invite you to do so.

Many come out of the great tribulation. And that won't just be because they suffer in it. As Revelation claims they will have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the lamb. A great witness must cause that. And that witness will not be delivered by just two people.
 
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Maria Billingsley

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The scripture speaks about a time after the last gentile is added to Christ's church.
Not sure but this sounds Dispensational Futurist which I am not a part of. There is no Jew or Gentile in the Church. We are all the same. per Paul, in the Body of Christ.
Blessings
 
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Not sure but this sounds Dispensational Futurist which I am not a part of. There is no Jew or Gentile in the Church. We are all the same. per Paul, in the Body of Christ.
Blessings
Let's not give fancy names to beliefs that are not in scripture as readers might not know what you mean. That scripture does speak in plain language that is not metaphorical. Read the context. It speaks of the Jewish nation that stubbornly turned against God, and God stopped adding them to the Kingdom because of that, but he will again turn his attention TO JACOB AFTER THE LAST GENTILE HAS BEEN ADDED. Those thoughts are clear. The two witnesses in Revelation are not. That's why pastors only speculate on who they believe the 2 are. And they are wrong. There is no way to prove that number is literally two.

Romans 11:25 also shows the whole church is not saved from experiencing the great tribulation, because the scripture is addressing the whole church. (*Also, see below.) And Romans 11:25 states if God stopped accepting the natural sons of Jacob then gentile members in the church beware, the same could happen to them. That is they could get removed. But with the hardening of the hearts in natural Israel God started, according to his purpose, adding gentiles to the Kingdom. After the last gentile is added God turns his attention back to Israel.

Those scriptures are very clear and easy to understand. To say God does not turn his attention back to the Jewish people again because all Christians are Jews (equal to Jews in the Kingdom) doesn't make any sense. Try to explain that if you choose. You will get stuck in the muck of contradictory ideas. But go on, explain it if you can.

*Also See Matthew 24; Christ said "when you see ALL these things know he is near at the door." And Christ spoke of the great tribulation prior to saying "all these things." That at the very minimum means some Christians will experience at least part of the great tribulation
 
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