Eucharistic Adoration and Orthodoxy?

Mountainmike

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Nov 2, 2016
4,614
1,592
66
Northern uk
✟561,189.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
I'm curious to know what Catholics do with the host in their monstrance. Is it ever consumed and replaced?

I am only posting here to answer the question asked of Catholics.

Yes it is indeed consumed and replaced, I don't know what canon law has to say, but I observe it is even weekly. The host is not stored in the monstrance , when not on show, but is stored in a separate small container in the tabernacle called I believe a "pyx"

For us the tabernacle alludes to the OT holy of holies and God's special presence there.
 
Upvote 0

prodromos

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Nov 28, 2003
21,552
12,102
58
Sydney, Straya
✟1,178,119.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
I am only posting here to answer the question asked of Catholics.

Yes it is indeed consumed and replaced, I don't know what canon law has to say, but I observe it is even weekly.

For us the tabernacle alludes to the OT holy of holies and God's special presence there.
Thank you. I appreciate the response :)
 
Upvote 0

Not David

I'm back!
Apr 6, 2018
7,356
5,235
25
USA
✟231,310.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
Sorry - been out of town and not checking this.

I go back and forth in my mind on that specific question. I'd actually disagree that Original Sin is an issue between Orthodox and Lutherans: when the Lutherans sent the Augsburg Confession to Constantinople in the 16th century, Patriarch Jeremias II wrote back accepting the segment on original sin as being accurate (on the other hand, Rome rejected the Lutheran view of Original Sin!).

Eucharistic views - Lutheran doctrine is pretty similar to Orthodox.

Penal substitution - Lutherans generally emphasize this, but they do also recognize other theories like Christus Victor and even Theosis to an extent.

Sola Scriptura - Lutherans do teach this, but differently from your typical evangelical/mainline protestant. It's a lot more like the Anglican view, and there is very certainly a high regard and respect towards tradition and the Church Fathers.

Evangelical Culture - yes Lutherans have been influenced by this. But so have the Orthodox, in my (admittedly limited) experience with Orthodoxy.

I think the biggest difference between Lutherans and the Orthodox is Ecclesiology, hands down. That came up repeatedly in my inquiry process, in personal reading, in conversations with Orthodox priests and my Lutheran pastors.
I would have to peacefully and friendly disagree with you AMM:
1) The view of Original Sin is more similar to the Roman one (plus Total Depravity):

Sin, Original
(inherited; hereditary; principal; capital; Adam's sin; nature-sin; person-sin). 1. In its ordinary meaning this term does not refer to the origin of sin but to the guilt of Adam's sin imputed to his offspring (hereditary guilt, Ro 5:12–19; Eph 2:3; cf. FC SD I 9) and the corruption of man's nature that occurred when sin entered and which inheres in the human will and inclinations. Cf. Gn 5:3; 6:5; 8:21; Jb 15:14; Ps 51:5; Jn 3:6; Ro 14:23. Original sin is not an activity but a quality, a state, an inherent condition. It exists, though there be no conscious, voluntary act of internal or external powers, of mind or body. It is “the chief sin, a root and fountainhead of all actual sins” (FC SD I 5).
Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod - Christian Cyclopedia

2) The view of Eucharist might be similar but I believe Luther and Lutherans do not believe of it as a sacrifice
"Closely connected with the pernicious doctrine of transubstantiation are the papistic errors of the "sacrifice of the Mass," by which "Christ's body "is continually offered up in an unbloody manner for the sins of the living and the dead." (Christian Dogmatics, 511)

3) Holding "Christus Victor" and "Theosis" does not mean they cannot relate to "Penal Substitution", I believe a Reformed Christian said Christus Victor does not make sense without Penal Substitution

4) Lutheran might not believe in your typical "where is that in the Bible?" Sola Scriptura but it is still anti-historical to see Scripture as the authority when it was the Church who set the authority to have the canon.
 
Upvote 0

Not David

I'm back!
Apr 6, 2018
7,356
5,235
25
USA
✟231,310.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
Sorry - been out of town and not checking this.

I go back and forth in my mind on that specific question. I'd actually disagree that Original Sin is an issue between Orthodox and Lutherans: when the Lutherans sent the Augsburg Confession to Constantinople in the 16th century, Patriarch Jeremias II wrote back accepting the segment on original sin as being accurate (on the other hand, Rome rejected the Lutheran view of Original Sin!).

Eucharistic views - Lutheran doctrine is pretty similar to Orthodox.

Penal substitution - Lutherans generally emphasize this, but they do also recognize other theories like Christus Victor and even Theosis to an extent.

Sola Scriptura - Lutherans do teach this, but differently from your typical evangelical/mainline protestant. It's a lot more like the Anglican view, and there is very certainly a high regard and respect towards tradition and the Church Fathers.

Evangelical Culture - yes Lutherans have been influenced by this. But so have the Orthodox, in my (admittedly limited) experience with Orthodoxy.

I think the biggest difference between Lutherans and the Orthodox is Ecclesiology, hands down. That came up repeatedly in my inquiry process, in personal reading, in conversations with Orthodox priests and my Lutheran pastors.
Can you tell me how it has been influenced by Evangelical Culture? I have been thinking that since Orthodoxy has a lot of converts from an Evangelical background then there could be some influence there.
 
Upvote 0

AMM

A Beggar
Site Supporter
May 2, 2017
1,725
1,269
Virginia
✟329,845.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
In Relationship
I would have to peacefully and friendly disagree with you AMM:
and with equal peace, I'll respond to your points

1) The view of Original Sin is more similar to the Roman one (plus Total Depravity):

Sin, Original
(inherited; hereditary; principal; capital; Adam's sin; nature-sin; person-sin). 1. In its ordinary meaning this term does not refer to the origin of sin but to the guilt of Adam's sin imputed to his offspring (hereditary guilt, Ro 5:12–19; Eph 2:3; cf. FC SD I 9) and the corruption of man's nature that occurred when sin entered and which inheres in the human will and inclinations. Cf. Gn 5:3; 6:5; 8:21; Jb 15:14; Ps 51:5; Jn 3:6; Ro 14:23. Original sin is not an activity but a quality, a state, an inherent condition. It exists, though there be no conscious, voluntary act of internal or external powers, of mind or body. It is “the chief sin, a root and fountainhead of all actual sins” (FC SD I 5).
Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod - Christian Cyclopedia
The citation given to "FC SD I 9" (Formula of Concord, Solid Declaration, Article I, Paragraph 9) doesn't exactly say everything that's in the explanation, though. Rather, just says that because of Adam's sin, we are guilty of sin ourselves. (In the sense that: Adam sinned, therefore subjecting us to death and the consequences of sin. Which is the reason that we sin now. NOT that I'm guilty of Adam's sin of eating the fruit, which is the Roman view, albeit a simplified version.) And again, Patr. Jeremias II agreed to this. I unfortunately don't have the text of either the Lutheran writing or the Patriarch's response on hand right now.

2) The view of Eucharist might be similar but I believe Luther and Lutherans do not believe of it as a sacrifice
"Closely connected with the pernicious doctrine of transubstantiation are the papistic errors of the "sacrifice of the Mass," by which "Christ's body "is continually offered up in an unbloody manner for the sins of the living and the dead." (Christian Dogmatics, 511)
Lutherans would accept the concept of the Eucharist as a sacrifice in some contexts, depending on what exactly is meant by that.

And the Catholic understanding of Eucharist as sacrifice is not the same as the Orthodox teaching.

3) Holding "Christus Victor" and "Theosis" does not mean they cannot relate to "Penal Substitution", I believe a Reformed Christian said Christus Victor does not make sense without Penal Substitution
To be fair, Reformed Christians are not Lutherans and don't determine Lutheran theology. I wasn't saying that Lutheran soteriology is the same as Orthodox soteriology - they're not. Just that there's more similarities than some people (including some Lutherans) would see.

4) Lutheran might not believe in your typical "where is that in the Bible?" Sola Scriptura but it is still anti-historical to see Scripture as the authority when it was the Church who set the authority to have the canon.
I don't know that it's fair to see it as wholly anti-historical when there are many Church Father quotes lending support to the idea of sola scriptura. (That's not to say Sola Scriptura is true, just that it isn't always as clear cut which was the historical position.) One Lutheran pastor would always say "Scripture teaches us the necessity of tradition, and tradition teaches us the necessity of Scripture".

It's a both-and, not an either-or. As my priest (I think...) explained it to me, the Church is the ultimate authority, and her highest authority is the Scriptures. They're the pinnacle and capstone of the mountain of Tradition - but there is only one "mountain", not two (Scripture and tradition/magisterium), as Rome teaches

Can you tell me how it has been influenced by Evangelical Culture? I have been thinking that since Orthodoxy has a lot of converts from an Evangelical background then there could be some influence there.
I've just seen some things and heard some priests that sound more like evangelicals. Sermons that feel like a cheap "God loves you so just be happy and invite him in to your heart and be saved" altar-call type thing. Books that just feel like decision theology and false mysticism (when we have such a rich tradition of true mystical theology!). A conflation of the Republican party/Conservative politics and Christianity. Priests that don't wear clerical clothing outside of the services and take off the collar (if they're wearing a clerical shirt) immediately after the service because of the same reasons that evangelicals don't use them to begin with.
 
  • Informative
Reactions: Not David
Upvote 0

Not David

I'm back!
Apr 6, 2018
7,356
5,235
25
USA
✟231,310.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
and with equal peace, I'll respond to your points


The citation given to "FC SD I 9" (Formula of Concord, Solid Declaration, Article I, Paragraph 9) doesn't exactly say everything that's in the explanation, though. Rather, just says that because of Adam's sin, we are guilty of sin ourselves. (In the sense that: Adam sinned, therefore subjecting us to death and the consequences of sin. Which is the reason that we sin now. NOT that I'm guilty of Adam's sin of eating the fruit, which is the Roman view, albeit a simplified version.) And again, Patr. Jeremias II agreed to this. I unfortunately don't have the text of either the Lutheran writing or the Patriarch's response on hand right now.


Lutherans would accept the concept of the Eucharist as a sacrifice in some contexts, depending on what exactly is meant by that.

And the Catholic understanding of Eucharist as sacrifice is not the same as the Orthodox teaching.


To be fair, Reformed Christians are not Lutherans and don't determine Lutheran theology. I wasn't saying that Lutheran soteriology is the same as Orthodox soteriology - they're not. Just that there's more similarities than some people (including some Lutherans) would see.


I don't know that it's fair to see it as wholly anti-historical when there are many Church Father quotes lending support to the idea of sola scriptura. (That's not to say Sola Scriptura is true, just that it isn't always as clear cut which was the historical position.) One Lutheran pastor would always say "Scripture teaches us the necessity of tradition, and tradition teaches us the necessity of Scripture".

It's a both-and, not an either-or. As my priest (I think...) explained it to me, the Church is the ultimate authority, and her highest authority is the Scriptures. They're the pinnacle and capstone of the mountain of Tradition - but there is only one "mountain", not two (Scripture and tradition/magisterium), as Rome teaches


I've just seen some things and heard some priests that sound more like evangelicals. Sermons that feel like a cheap "God loves you so just be happy and invite him in to your heart and be saved" altar-call type thing. Books that just feel like decision theology and false mysticism (when we have such a rich tradition of true mystical theology!). A conflation of the Republican party/Conservative politics and Christianity. Priests that don't wear clerical clothing outside of the services and take off the collar (if they're wearing a clerical shirt) immediately after the service because of the same reasons that evangelicals don't use them to begin with.
Thanks for the information!

Regarding Sola Scriptura I do not say that Holy Tradition and Holy Scriptures are too different mountains because like I have said before in other forums, Holy Scripture is part of Holy Tradition. I am not sure if I agree with the statement that Scripture is like at the top because each part of Tradition is important in their specific function. I understand that some Church Fathers might sound like supporting a variation of Sola Scriptura but that can happen with some other ideas too.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: AMM
Upvote 0

Not David

I'm back!
Apr 6, 2018
7,356
5,235
25
USA
✟231,310.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
and with equal peace, I'll respond to your points


The citation given to "FC SD I 9" (Formula of Concord, Solid Declaration, Article I, Paragraph 9) doesn't exactly say everything that's in the explanation, though. Rather, just says that because of Adam's sin, we are guilty of sin ourselves. (In the sense that: Adam sinned, therefore subjecting us to death and the consequences of sin. Which is the reason that we sin now. NOT that I'm guilty of Adam's sin of eating the fruit, which is the Roman view, albeit a simplified version.) And again, Patr. Jeremias II agreed to this. I unfortunately don't have the text of either the Lutheran writing or the Patriarch's response on hand right now.


Lutherans would accept the concept of the Eucharist as a sacrifice in some contexts, depending on what exactly is meant by that.

And the Catholic understanding of Eucharist as sacrifice is not the same as the Orthodox teaching.


To be fair, Reformed Christians are not Lutherans and don't determine Lutheran theology. I wasn't saying that Lutheran soteriology is the same as Orthodox soteriology - they're not. Just that there's more similarities than some people (including some Lutherans) would see.


I don't know that it's fair to see it as wholly anti-historical when there are many Church Father quotes lending support to the idea of sola scriptura. (That's not to say Sola Scriptura is true, just that it isn't always as clear cut which was the historical position.) One Lutheran pastor would always say "Scripture teaches us the necessity of tradition, and tradition teaches us the necessity of Scripture".

It's a both-and, not an either-or. As my priest (I think...) explained it to me, the Church is the ultimate authority, and her highest authority is the Scriptures. They're the pinnacle and capstone of the mountain of Tradition - but there is only one "mountain", not two (Scripture and tradition/magisterium), as Rome teaches


I've just seen some things and heard some priests that sound more like evangelicals. Sermons that feel like a cheap "God loves you so just be happy and invite him in to your heart and be saved" altar-call type thing. Books that just feel like decision theology and false mysticism (when we have such a rich tradition of true mystical theology!). A conflation of the Republican party/Conservative politics and Christianity. Priests that don't wear clerical clothing outside of the services and take off the collar (if they're wearing a clerical shirt) immediately after the service because of the same reasons that evangelicals don't use them to begin with.
Regarding the Evangelical influence:
I have not heard those kinds of "altar-call sermons" before. I believe you but do you know if there might be something similar on the Internet?

Maybe I do not have a lot of information regarding Orthodox books. Do you know any specific one?

I have been critical of some aspects of Republican views including Libertarianism which has become more prominent among youngsters but as someone who has been on both sides, the Republican one is usually friendlier to Christianity and it is a fact that the Democrat Party is becoming more irreligious. It might be because I deal with Political Science but besides my belief in a different system of government, I do not see any other option.

I once talked to a priest about him not wearing his priest clothes while in his work and he told me something about separating of church and state which I honestly find weak since Muslim laypeople are allowed to have their own clothes yet a justified clergy does not.
 
Upvote 0

All4Christ

✙ The Handmaid of God Laura ✙
CF Senior Ambassador
Site Supporter
Mar 11, 2003
11,683
8,019
PA
Visit site
✟1,019,560.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Regarding the Evangelical influence:
I have not heard those kinds of "altar-call sermons" before. I believe you but do you know if there might be something similar on the Internet?

Maybe I do not have a lot of information regarding Orthodox books. Do you know any specific one?

I have been critical of some aspects of Republican views including Libertarianism which has become more prominent among youngsters but as someone who has been on both sides, the Republican one is usually friendlier to Christianity and it is a fact that the Democrat Party is becoming more irreligious. It might be because I deal with Political Science but besides my belief in a different system of government, I do not see any other option.

I once talked to a priest about him not wearing his priest clothes while in his work and he told me something about separating of church and state which I honestly find weak since Muslim laypeople are allowed to have their own clothes yet a justified clergy does not.
FWIW, I haven’t heard that type of sermon either, and haven’t seen many of the same types of influence described.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Not David
Upvote 0

All4Christ

✙ The Handmaid of God Laura ✙
CF Senior Ambassador
Site Supporter
Mar 11, 2003
11,683
8,019
PA
Visit site
✟1,019,560.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
I’m not saying it’s not there in some areas...I just haven’t seen it personally in my area or sphere of experience.

That said, I have seen a renewed interest in the Old Testament and scripture as a whole, laity having a deeper understanding of our theology, the usage of technology to reach out to people, such as AFR, and other things that in my opinion are good and beneficial. These aren’t specific to evangelicals of course, but they are things I was taught to value in my previous time as a Pentecostal / evangelical...except the deep connection to the Church Fathers. That appreciation for me came from searching for the “orthodox” Church - which resulted from studying Scripture and history.
 
  • Like
Reactions: AMM
Upvote 0

AMM

A Beggar
Site Supporter
May 2, 2017
1,725
1,269
Virginia
✟329,845.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
In Relationship
Those sort of things aren’t super prevalent - I didn’t mean to give that impression. I don’t know of any online off the top of my head, but I also don’t want to go around dropping names and gossiping about specific people. The priests that I have seen/heard these types of sermons/books from are all very pious individuals and have great other sermons/books. So it’s definitely not the norm, but just something I’ve experienced a few times.

When I brought some of this up to my priest when I was a catechumen, he just advised me to stick with the Church Fathers as my primary reading sources, and if something felt “off” from a modern source, pretty much he said to just not worry about it too much but focus on the Fathers and the Saints.

And yeah, politics is messy. There’s not really a perfect party. All of politics (parties, people, movements) has its flaws. We just make due the best we can, and always remember to pray, since that’s more important than any policy.

I agree with A4C - there’s good parts of the influence too. Scripture study is a big one - I know hardly anything about scripture compared to many people, and the Protestants are great at knowing their bible inside and out.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Not David
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums