Three quick Noah's Ark questions

JacksBratt said:

Your statements imply that IF you did not need the supernatural events of Jesus life, death and resurrection...

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I made no statements about the events of Jesus' life, death, and resurrection.

JacksBratt said:

Truth has nothing to do with your belief... Faith has nothing to do with your belief.. it is just self serving.... You believe it because you get something out of it.

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Your claims are not founded in anything I have written. What is in the quote above is ad hominem.

ewq1938 said:

How do they survive a 5 month flood with water covering them by a large amount of feet depth? That mean no direct sunlight, no oxygen as they had before. How would a leaf still exist and how would a tree survive that?

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ewq1938 said:

How do they survive a 5 month flood with water covering them by a large amount of feet depth? That mean no direct sunlight, no oxygen as they had before. How would a leaf still exist and how would a tree survive that?

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It's called sprouting. Seeds do that.

genesis 8:11
Then the dove came to him in the evening, and behold, a freshly plucked olive leaf was in her mouth; and Noah knew that the waters had receded from the earth.

Who said anything about a tree?

ewq1938 said:

The bible does not say it was global.

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The Bible does not say that it was local.

ewq1938 said:

It was written by someone inspired by God and the truth is saying "all the word/earth" does not always mean the entire globe.

God wrote the verse not Caesar.

Not always. It can mean part of the world such as the part of the world Noah knew and lived in.

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You missed my point. God did not put words into Augustus' mouth. It seems that you are limiting God to those who had limited knowledge of the geography of the world.

I'm not denying anything in the bible in what follows. This is only for a point of conversation nothing more ...

Oscarr said:

Perhaps He should have consulted with the scientists to get the facts from them!!

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This is indeed a great idea.

No matter how you look at the bible, you need to consider what the natural world is also telling us about certain time periods and events.

Not doing this search and comparison is intellectually dishonest at best. When you look, you may find agreement or disagreement between the bible and with natural science. Your job then is to figure out what is happening in either case. In my view this is part of good biblical scholarship.

My understanding is that this kind of verification/comparison thing is done often as part of bible scholarship using archaeology so it should also be done using natural science as a basis of comparison as well.

Note that when agreement is found (between some investigative work and the bible), some religious people may be happy to quote and highlight the agreement, and to spread the word of the agreement. When disagreements found these individuals tend to downplay the disagreement and make it seem like the disagreement is due to junk investigative work.

This is disingenuous in my view. When a disagreement is found, this is an opportunity for more investigation and bible study not finger-pointing and accusations of one kind or anther.

Jonathan Walkerin said:

That is the usual creationist attitude when made to think the scientific implications of their fairy tale. Very honest and refreshing.

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The scientific implications need to be examined. I agree.

This does not make the bible wrong or untrue. It does perhaps make it disagree with natural science.

This in turn requires more work on the part of bible scholars to figure out why. I'm saying bible scholars since I presume that scientists are not really doing science in order to compare their results to the bible at all.

Erik Nelson said:

LXX and science agree ...

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I'm not getting this point.

How does this account signify a global flood that killed every living thing on earth other than a few people and some animals and seeds in a boat?

In my view, an account of sea-level rise does not equal Noah's ark, it equals sea level rise and only that. It also does not equal global flood either, although it may.

Suggesting a direct correlation to these biblical topics and sea level rise is possibly a false equivalence, at least in my view. More information on this is needed for this discussion.

If the Ark settled at say 14000 ft. what inhabited parts of the earth in that early epoch would remain above this water level if any?

Carl Emerson said:

If the Ark settled ...

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I get the point, but you have not answered what ark or shown how one event relates to the other in any way shape or form. "If" is not proof or a link of any kind its simply conjecture.

The argument you made is weak. Its like this in basic substance: "Have you ever seen a dragon?", "No.", "That proves they are invisible".

A rise in sea level offers zero discussion, never mind proof of any such thing as an ark. You may want it to indicate that an ark existed but it does not. An ark requires evidence of an ark not of rising sea levels at some point in the past.

Also, finding the remains of a ship at any altitude, 14,000 ft or otherwise, is also not evidence of a flood. The reason is that someone could have installed/made the remains in that particular spot in order to get attention for some reason. This is also like the dragon argument but it relates to the flood not the ship.

You need to find: (1) evidence of a global flood that is not biblical in nature and (2) evidence of a ship that can in some way be linked directly to the flood.

You got the point - that was all I was driving at.

How confident are we that such a flood would leave a permanent footprint in nature?

ewq1938 said:

There wasn't enough time for a seed to spout and grow big enough to have an olive leaf.

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Of course there is, seeds soaked in water sprout very quickly.

Olive leaves come from olive trees.

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They also come from seedlings.

ewq1938 said:

The bible does not support a global flood.

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The Bible repeatedly uses the words all. All life, all breath, all hills, all mankind.

genesis 7:4
4 For after seven more days I will cause it to rain on the earth forty days and forty nights, and I will destroy from the face of the earth all living things that I have made.”

11 In the six hundredth year of Noah’s life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, on that day all the fountains of the great deep were broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened. 12 And the rain was on the earth forty days and forty nights.

15
And they went into the ark to Noah, two by two, of all flesh in which is the breath of life. 16 So those that entered, male and female of all flesh, went in as God had commanded him; and the Lord shut him in.

17 Now the flood was on the earth forty days. The waters increased and lifted up the ark, and it rose high above the earth.

19 And the waters prevailed exceedingly on the earth, and all the high hills under the whole heaven were covered. 20 The waters prevailed fifteen cubits upward, and the mountains were covered. 21 And all flesh died that moved on the earth: birds and cattle and beasts and every creeping thing that creeps on the earth, and every man. 22 All in whose nostrils was the breath of the spirit of life, all that was on the dry land, died.

23 So He destroyed all living things which were on the face of the ground: both man and cattle, creeping thing and bird of the air. They were destroyed from the earth. Only Noah and those who were with him in the ark remained alive.

Genesis 9:15
And I will remember my covenant, which [is] between me and you and every living creature of all flesh; and the waters shall no more become a flood to destroy all flesh.

matther24:39
And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Peter 2:2-5
and did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah, a preacher of righteousness, with seven others, when He brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly.


But more than that, God promised to never send this type of flood again.

Isaiah 54:9
"For this is like the days of Noah to Me, When I swore that the waters of Noah Would not flood the earth again; So I have sworn that I will not be angry with you Nor will I rebuke you.
Genesis 9 "I establish My covenant with you; and all flesh shall never again be cut off by the water of the flood, neither shall there again be a flood to destroy the earth."

We have continued local floods so God was not speaking about local floods but the global flood and saying there would not be another one. If God was talking about local floods and we have had hundreds of them, than that would make God a liar and God does not lie.
The only reason you want this flood to be some small local flood is it doesn't fit in with evolutionary ideas. It has nothing to do with what the Bible teaches.

I made no statements about the events of Jesus' life, death, and resurrection.

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Of course you didn't, you want to keep that separated as if they don't all hang together as one. The flood is as much of a miracle as the death and resurrection was, as was creation. So many people want to claim one miracle but not the others.
The whole Bible is the inspired Word of God. God never said you can cherry pick it to suit yourself. He didn't say "I added this bit for fun and giggles and only this piece is to be taken seriously."
2Timothy 3:16-17
16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Carl Emerson said:

How confident are we that such a flood would leave a footprint in nature?

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I don't know.

This is why I was saying that natural science should be consulted, as a matter of refuting or confirming some part of the flood/ark account.

Do we see long-term evidence of floods in general? If we do, then why not this large flood? If we typically don't see such evidence, then OK, we don't, therefore no evidence of a global flood could be reasonable.

What supernatural effects may be in play is another matter. This is outside of science and is up to bible people to figure out.

My main point is to not throw out analysis one way or the other just because of the 'us' vs. 'them' paradigm we tend to fall into. Hatred and division grow from this not insight.

Jesus direct reference to the event would seem to eliminate any claim of allegory or myth.

Luke 17: 26 “And just as it happened in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man: 27 they were eating, they were drinking, they were marrying, they were being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all.

The exact location is not known, though it was undoubtedly on the Mediterranean Sea, most likely in present day Israel. Where it landed is likewise not known exactly, though it was on a Mediterranean shore, since that was the location of the great flood.

Carl Emerson said:

seem to eliminate any claim of allegory or myth.

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Cynically speaking, He could be quoting allegory or myth, so this offers no elimination at all.

I personally don't think this is the case, but it could be read that way.

PaulCyp1 said:

The exact location is not known, though it was undoubtedly on the Mediterranean Sea, most likely in present day Israel. Where it landed is likewise not known exactly, though it was on a Mediterranean shore, since that was the location of the great flood.

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The mountains of Ararat are specifically stated...

Carl Emerson said:

Jesus direct reference to the event would seem to eliminate any claim of allegory or myth.

Luke 17: 26 “And just as it happened in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man: 27 they were eating, they were drinking, they were marrying, they were being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all.

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Yes, and likened to the second coming.
Matther24:39
And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Revelation 1:7
“Look, he is coming with the clouds,”
and “every eye will see him,
even those who pierced him”;
and all peoples on earth “will mourn because of him.”
So shall it be! Amen.