If theistic evolution, how did animals die before humans existed?

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Death exists because of sin.

Death came into the world through Adam, according to Romans-through one transgression, no less.

If theistic evolution is true, animals died before Adam was born.

What sin lead to their death?

My understanding is that all death is caused by sin. Is there an explanation for this within Theistic Evolution, or are the beliefs mutually exclusive?
 

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Death exists because of sin.

No, death existed as soon as mortal life was created because death is the natural course. Fish ate fish, animals ate insects etc etc

Death came into the world through Adam, according to Romans-through one transgression, no less.

Adam's sin brought in spiritual death not physical death.

If theistic evolution is true, animals died before Adam was born.

Yes they did.

My understanding is that all death is caused by sin.

A common error. Sin causes spiritual death which leads to the ultimate death, the second death. The first death can happen without sinning such as children under a certain age, especially in the womb or not long after birth.
 
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No, death existed as soon as mortal life was created because death is the natural course. Fish ate fish, animals ate insects etc etc



Adam's sin brought in spiritual death not physical death.



Yes they did.



A common error. Sin causes spiritual death which leads to the ultimate death, the second death. The first death can happen without sinning such as children under a certain age, especially in the womb or not long after birth.


On what reasoning do you say death is the natural course?
 
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On what reasoning do you say death is the natural course?

It's based on mortals having a death ie: mortality. The bible talks about mortals accepting Christ and receiving immortality so as to avoid the second death. The first death is never something God promises to remove from believers. The only ones who escape the first death are those alive at the second coming. Everyone else, except a couple possible examples, will die and have been dying since man existed.
 
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No, death existed as soon as mortal life was created because death is the natural course. Fish ate fish, animals ate insects etc etc



Adam's sin brought in spiritual death not physical death.



Yes they did.



A common error. Sin causes spiritual death which leads to the ultimate death, the second death. The first death can happen without sinning such as children under a certain age, especially in the womb or not long after birth.
It's based on mortals having a death ie: mortality. The bible talks about mortals accepting Christ and receiving immortality so as to avoid the second death. The first death is never something God promises to remove from believers. The only ones who escape the first death are those alive at the second coming. Everyone else, except a couple possible examples, will die and have been dying since man existed.

If it is only a spiritual death that is brought on by sin, how did Jesus’s physical death pay the price we would pay by spiritual death?

Also, why was sin in the Old Testament often punished with physical death? And why did average physical lifespans gradually decrease from Adam onward?
 
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If it is only a spiritual death that is brought on by sin, how did Jesus’s physical death pay the price we would pay by spiritual death?

Because he was the Lamb of God, a sin sacrifice like there was in the OT. The sacrifices were never to make it so people didn't die the first death. They all died the first death. It's the second death we can avoid through Christ.

Also, why was sin in the Old Testament often punished with physical death?

Like major crimes/sins? You murder someone, you should be killed. Not all sins were punishable by death. The important thing is the second death will be because people have unforgiven sins because they did not accept Christ and have forgiveness of sins.

And why did average physical lifespans gradually decrease from Adam onward?

We can only guess at that.
 
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Also, why was sin in the Old Testament often punished with physical death?
Physical death happens to everyone. (Any exception is an exception, not a rule)
Even in the New Testament.
And why did average physical lifespans gradually decrease from Adam onward?
Yahuweh set it up that way from the beginning, planned even before He Created any life or the universe.
 
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Yep. All naturally intended to live then die and return back to the ground.

Yes before man animals had all sorts of causes of death --- predation, starvation, disease, drowning, to name just a few.
 
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Death exists because of sin.

Death came into the world through Adam, according to Romans-through one transgression, no less.

If theistic evolution is true, animals died before Adam was born.

What sin lead to their death?

My understanding is that all death is caused by sin. Is there an explanation for this within Theistic Evolution, or are the beliefs mutually exclusive?
Hi Waitingforgood. I'd like to offer the opposing set of points to also consider:

- The Bible makes no direct statement that animals sinned, nor that they ever died before man's sin.
- The first indication of animal death is Genesis 3:21 where God provides skins as clothing for Adam & Eve (how unfortunate of an object lesson of physical death as a consequence for disobedience if spiritual death is the only consequence).
- Jesus physically died on the cross as an atonement for sins (again, seemingly unnecessary that Jesus should suffer physical death if He could only have paid for our sins by being temporarily spiritually separated from God the Father for 3 days instead).
- All of creation (not just humans) groans because of the curse of sin (Romans 8:22)... it would be logical to conclude sin affected animals.

What the Bible teaches is that sin has both a consequence of spiritual death and physical death (see Revelation 20:14)--eternal separation from God (the 'second death') is spiritual death.

Without an atoning sacrifice for death, we are all headed for both physical and spiritual death because we are spiritually separated from God as a result of man's sin until we accept Jesus into our heart.

Now, God seems to care for animals:

- He has Noah take 2 of each kind into the ark
- Animals are part of His creation
- Animals do feel pain and suffering so it would seem God is indifferent to this
- God provided them 'every green plant' (not each other) to eat at creation (prior to sin)
- In Isaiah (and Revelation) animals are portrayed as being in heaven and at peace with one another

So, it would seem God has a state of existence in mind for animals where they will be at peace (again)... suggesting this was once the case (the likely culprit being sin as disrupting this peace and unity).

The obvious question in opposition to these points is: So why didn't Adam & Eve physically die then when they ate the fruit that day?

That is a good/fair question. The Bible indicates they didn't die and gives no direct explanation for why they didn't physically die that day. Several points to consider though:

- God seems to be in the business of restoring and resurrecting.
- If God had killed Adam & Eve right then and there, what would be the point? Start over? Again, God is in the business of restoring and resurrecting.
- It seems God had intended for life to continue eternally as part of His original plan (tree of life). Further, we read in Revelation that the tree of life exists in heaven as well. We don't know for sure that the tree of life was only mean't for humans, and the fact that animals will be in heaven suggests God has an eternal plan for them as well (and god gave them every green plan for food, so it is possible they might also eat from the tree of life).
- Adam and Eve did begin to physically die (see Genesis 3:22)--that is, have a finite existence (lest we live forever in our sin). When a branch is separated from the vine, the leaves may still be green for a while, but like us it too eventually dies.

Some of what I've stated is directly from scripture, so it's backed up by God's word; however, I've also made some points that are based upon inferences and speculation so take them for what they're worth. We can all 'imagine' a more 'convenient' way where God would just fix everything when Jesus died and that we'd all be born and never die and the earth we life on now would be perfect and there would be no more sin... but that's our plan, our thoughts, our ways. God's plan, God's thoughts, and God's ways are not ours, for they are higher. Bearing that in mind, not everything we wish or think may perfectly align and so if we presuppose our rationale above God's plans then we can of course make arguments in contrast to what is written in the Bible without end.

Keep searching out the truth.
 
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Brightmoon

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Humans are one of the only animals who know that they’re eventually and inevitably going to die . (elephants and whales might but that’s unknown at this time) This is what separates us from the other animals, not some creationist pseudoscience nonsense like baramins or “ kinds”
 
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joshua 1 9

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Death exists because of sin.
There was death before Adam. There was no death from sin before Adam. Adam lived 930 years. It was not until after the flood that God limited life to 120 years. Before Adam there was no aging. So every remain we find was killed in what appears to be the prime of their life.
 
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joshua 1 9

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The Bible makes no direct statement that animals sinned, nor that they ever died before man's sin.
Cain said: "Behold, this day You have driven me from the face of the earth, and from Your face I will be hidden; I will be a fugitive and a wanderer on the earth, and whoever finds me will kill me.” (Genesis 4:14)If we do a study of human remains before Adam and Eve. Like Ken-wick man or Cheddar man. They were killed in the prime of their life and they are murdered or had injuries from spear heads and arrow heads. There is no evidence of aging in human remains before Adam and Eve. Of course they just have the bones so they have to look at growth plates and things like that. Often they find an arrowhead still stuck in a bone somewhere. Sometimes they recover from the injury and sometimes they die.
 
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Cain said: "Behold, this day You have driven me from the face of the earth, and from Your face I will be hidden; I will be a fugitive and a wanderer on the earth, and whoever finds me will kill me.” (Genesis 4:14)If we do a study of human remains before Adam and Eve. Like Ken-wick man or Cheddar man. They were killed in the prime of their life and they are murdered or had injuries from spear heads and arrow heads. There is no evidence of aging in human remains before Adam and Eve. Of course they just have the bones so they have to look at growth plates and things like that. Often they find an arrowhead still stuck in a bone somewhere. Sometimes they recover from the injury and sometimes they die.

Actually one of the best ways of determining the age of an ancient skeleton is to examine the condition of the teeth. A few fossils have been found that were of an advanced age, showing obvious signs of arthritis and healed fractures and toothless. These were likely revered elders who were carefully tended in their advanced age.
 
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There is no evidence of aging in human remains before Adam and Eve.

I don't agree with that. Anything mortal ages and no human or animal was created immortal or with the ability to not age. Obviously babies have to age and become adults else we would basically only find skeletons of babies but that isn't what we find. We find skeletons of people of all ages and conditions.
 
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joshua 1 9

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I don't agree with that.
Great show me your evidence. I am just going by my research. I was hoping others would do some research on this to see what they come up with.

We find skeletons of people of all ages and conditions.
We do not find the skelton of anyone older then 30. My dad was a doctor and we know about the growth plate in bones and that helps us to determine how old people are when they only remains we have from them are their bones.
 
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joshua 1 9

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showing obvious signs of arthritis
Even children can have arthritis, that is why they have a juvenile arthritis foundation. As a general rule pre civilized people were a lot more healthy then they were living in civilized conditions. Of course during the black plague civilized conditions were horrendous.
 
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