LDS LDS Jesus Could Have Lost His Godhood

He is the way

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They don't obey because they haven't become Christians.
Many obeyed God before there were Christians. Abraham obeyed God:

(Old Testament | Genesis 26:4 - 5)

4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

There were no Christians when Abraham was alive. Everyone who keeps the commandments will have eternal life. Jesus Christ promised it and He keeps His promises.
 
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He is the way

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Being constantly reminded to "keep the commandments" by people who wouldn't know a commandment from a Pop Tart does nothing but distort the message that I have to assume our Mormon friends are intending to convey. It'd be like if I constantly posted clips from that horrible "Godmakers" video followed by a reminder to our Mormon friends to go to their temples regularly.
We know what a person MUST do and so do you.

(New Testament | Luke 10:25 - 28)

25 ¶ And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
26 He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?
27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.
28 And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.
 
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mmksparbud

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We know what a person MUST do and so do you.

(New Testament | Luke 10:25 - 28)

25 ¶ And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
26 He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?
27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.
28 And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.

Isa_64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.
 
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He is the way

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Eternal life is a free gift from God. We cannot earn it. How much do you have to do to satisfy the "after all we can do" part of your theology? Can you quantify that?
We can not earn it, but we can lose it.

(New Testament | Hebrews 6:4 - 12)

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.
9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.
10 For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister.
11 And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end:
12 That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.

What happens to the slothful:

(New Testament | Matthew 25:26 - 30)

26 His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:
27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.
29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
 
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He is the way

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Isa_64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.
As I have said many many times, we are not saved by works, neither are we saved without them. Nothing we can do will will be enough to save us. Without the atonement we would all be lost. That being said, Jesus will decide who He will give the gift of His atoning sacrifice to. I believe He will give it to those who LOVE Him and keep the commandments.
 
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mmksparbud

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As I have said many many times, we are not saved by works, neither are we saved without them. Nothing we can do will will be enough to save us. Without the atonement we would all be lost. That being said, Jesus will decide who He will give the gift of His atoning sacrifice to. I believe He will give it to those who LOVE Him and keep the commandments.


Good works are a by product of salvation. It is not the cost of salvation for it is a gift--a gift can not be bought, or worked for.
Act_8:20 But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money.
Rom 5:16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
Rom 5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Eph_2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
 
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BigDaddy4

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Very difficult to quantify. In fact that is where the legalism comes in. The Jews literally tried to quantify the commandments, and from that there began to be a feeling that if you could do the quantified commandments you would be saved. The spirit of the commandment was gutted for a legalistic approach.

So no, it is very difficult to quantify. It is more of an attitude of service, than a number. It is the spirit of the law, not the details of the law.
Your eternal fate rests in the balance of doing all you can do and you can't quantify it? That must be frustrating. Thankfully, Jesus saves people despite them not doing all they can or should do. It's called grace and mercy. You should accept it sometime.
 
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BigDaddy4

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Eternal life is a gift given to those who keep the commandments.

(New Testament | Luke 10:25 - 28)

25 ¶ And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
26 He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?
27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.
28 And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.

However, the wages of sin is death.
How did "keeping the commandments" work out for the rich young ruler in Luke 18?


18A certain ruler asked him, “Good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?”

19“Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone. 20You know the commandments: ‘You shall not commit adultery, you shall not murder, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, honor your father and mother.’ a

21“All these I have kept since I was a boy,” he said.

22When Jesus heard this, he said to him, “You still lack one thing. Sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”

23When he heard this, he became very sad, because he was very wealthy. 24Jesus looked at him and said, “How hard it is for the rich to enter the kingdom of God! 25Indeed, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.”
 
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BigDaddy4

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We can not earn it, but we can lose it.
You dodged this part. Why?

How much do you have to do to satisfy the "after all we can do" part of your theology? Can you quantify that?
 
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Rescued One

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There is some common sense that you must use when talking about salvation. You want us to believe that the bible says, believe, and the instant you believe it is all over except for the crowning glory in eternal life. Jesus has done everything and the second you believe in Jesus you are in.

You've been corrected many times and continue to make the same accusations.

You must be born again by the Holy Spirit. And as the Bible says, 17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Mormons teach that as man obeys the Mormon laws and ordinances, God is obligated to begin a process called the new birth. I tell you that without regeneration by the Holy Spirit, man isn't set free from the power of Satan. The person who is not born again can't understand spiritual things. If you can't or refuse to understand this, just stop addressing this issue.


A more common sense biblical reading creates a partnership between Jesus and you. We believe, but because we believe we do the same kinds of works that he did, and he sees this believe and faith and that we are following him and grace is given.

Mormons don't imitate Christ or accept the facts that He is omniscient and He is sovereign.

For instance, here is the scripture that bridges the 2 belief systems.
John 14:12 King James Version (KJV)
12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

Here Jesus is telling us his common sense approach to salvation: If you believe in me, and the works that I do, you too will do these same works, and even greater works than these will you do because I go to the Father.

Mormons don't do greater works that Christ, do they?


Jesus expects that if you believe him, you will do greater works than he did. If you don't,.........

When was the last time you or any other Mormon did greater works that Jesus Christ?

The salvation process is divided into at least 2 sections:
1) believing and trusting and grace
2) following and doing the same works that Jesus did

Jesus is the Author and Finisher of our faith.

Would you not agree with me that as a new person in Jesus you would like to act just like him and do the same kinds of things that Jesus did. You would visit the widow and orphan, feed the hungry, cloth the naked, visit those in prison etc., etc., etc. or live the Law Of Christ (Galatians 6:2).

I've done all of that as God made possible.

If you think you can be saved by doing good works, you are mistaken. But if you think you can be saved without doing good works, you are mistaken too. The scriptures are clear.

Which scriptures?

Book of Mormon, 1 Nephi 13
29 And after these plain and precious things were taken away it[the Bible]
goeth forth unto all the nations of the Gentiles; and after it goeth forth unto all the nations of the Gentiles, yea, even across the many waters which thou hast seen with the Gentiles which have gone forth out of captivity, thou seest—because of the many plain and precious things which have been taken out of the book, which were plain unto the understanding of the children of men, according to the plainness which is in the Lamb of God—
because of these things which are taken away out of the gospel of the Lamb, an exceedingly great many do stumble, yea, insomuch that Satan hath great power over them.



As Jesus says if you believe in me, you will do the works that I did, even great works than these shall you do. And I will add, if you do not believe in Jesus you will not do these good works.
and you will not be saved in his kingdom

My Jesus is sovereign; your Jesus is fictional.


The Church of Jesus Christ has the perfect formula: You believe, and you trust in the grace of God to save you after all that you can do to help Jesus.

My Jesus doesn't need help; your Jesus is fictional.


This simple formula covers all of the scriptures in the NT that speaks on being saved.

Mormons don't believe all of the New Testament.
 
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He is the way

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Good works are a by product of salvation. It is not the cost of salvation for it is a gift--a gift can not be bought, or worked for.
Act_8:20 But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money.
Rom 5:16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
Rom 5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Eph_2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
So who are the many that will be made righteous? Are they not the ones who LOVE Jesus Christ and keep the commandments? He said:

(Old Testament | Exodus 20:6)

6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

(New Testament | John 14:24)

24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.
 
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Rescued One

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We can not earn it, but we can lose it.

Humor Oh Really.jpg

Really? If we might lose eternal life, why would God give it to anyone? If your Jesus became a god, why would he become a a non-god?

As for earning eternal life, Mormonism teaches:

Doctrine and Covenants 130
20 There is a law, irrevocably decreed in heaven before the foundations of this world, upon which all blessings are predicated—

21 And when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated.


“Every key, power, and authority ever dispensed from heaven to men on earth, which is necessary for their eternal salvation, has already been restored in this dispensation” (McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p. 200). The Latter-day Saints are the recipients of those great blessings, and the Lord has said that where “much is given much is required” (D&C 82:3)....

The psalmist wrote, “O how love I thy law!” (Psalm 119:97). Is that a feeling you share, or do you sometimes feel resentful toward the laws of God? One of Satan’s most successful lies is that the commandments of God are restrictive and limiting. “If you would really be free,” he urges, “cut yourself loose from such restraints. Be free! Be independent!” The deception lies in denying the eternal principle that only obedience to law secures the blessings guaranteed by law (see D&C 130:20–21). Disobedience to law necessitates penalties, which are ordained by a loving Father to purge the souls of His children of what hinders their progression. When individuals are so purged, they can obtain as much happiness as they are willing to live for, according to the law they become capable of living (see D&C 88:21–24).
Enrichment G: The Nature and Purpose of Law

What are some of the things we must do to access the blessings of Christ’s Atonement? (We must have faith, repent, be baptized, receive the gift of the Holy Ghost, endure to the end, and receive and obey personal revelation.)
Lesson 8: Salvation Comes through Jesus Christ
lang=eng

“Our Church is founded upon the premise that spiritual growth and exaltation must be earned by the efforts of the individual.”
Henry D. Moyle, Improvement Era, December 1937, 787

“There will be a wise and just God to sit in judgment on all men. … The wicked may prosper for a time, the rebellious may seem to profit by their transgressions, but the time is coming when, at the bar of justice, all men will be judged, ‘every man according to their works’ (Rev. 20:13). No one will ‘get by’ with anything. On that day no one will escape the penalty of his deeds, no one will fail to receive the blessings he has earned."

Spencer W. Kimball, The Miracle of Forgiveness, p. 304–5


 
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He is the way

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How did "keeping the commandments" work out for the rich young ruler in Luke 18?


18A certain ruler asked him, “Good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?”

19“Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone. 20You know the commandments: ‘You shall not commit adultery, you shall not murder, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, honor your father and mother.’ a

21“All these I have kept since I was a boy,” he said.

22When Jesus heard this, he said to him, “You still lack one thing. Sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”

23When he heard this, he became very sad, because he was very wealthy. 24Jesus looked at him and said, “How hard it is for the rich to enter the kingdom of God! 25Indeed, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.”
He will have eternal life, but he wasn't perfect:

(New Testament | Matthew 19:20 - 22)

20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?
21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.
22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.
 
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He is the way

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You dodged this part. Why?

How much do you have to do to satisfy the "after all we can do" part of your theology? Can you quantify that?
We need to endure to the end:

(New Testament | Mark 13:13)

13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
 
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mmksparbud

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So who are the many that will be made righteous? Are they not the ones who LOVE Jesus Christ and keep the commandments? He said:

(Old Testament | Exodus 20:6)

6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

(New Testament | John 14:24)

24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.



auto reply to "He is the way" auto statement:
Jesus is the ONE AND ONLY Son of the Father, He has no grandfather. The Holy Spirit is everywhere at the same time there is no heavenly mother, Adam and Eve could have had children had they not fallen, there is no preexistence of man, the Father was never human nor ever died. Jesus created from nothing. Believe anything else and you worship a false God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit and are breaking the commandments.
 
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Many obeyed God before there were Christians. Abraham obeyed God:

(Old Testament | Genesis 26:4 - 5)

4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

There were no Christians when Abraham was alive. Everyone who keeps the commandments will have eternal life. Jesus Christ promised it and He keeps His promises.

That blessing is for Abraham's seed and is a reward for Abraham's obedience.
Who are his seed?

Everyone who keeps the commandments will have eternal life.

Who knows and keeps all the commandments? Do you? Which Mormons will have treasure in heaven?

Matthew 19
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? 17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. 18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, 19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet? 21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me. 22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.
 
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Eternal life is a gift given to those who keep the commandments.

Those who try to keep the commandments already have eternal life; the gift was already purchased by the Son of God.

Christian Jesus Paid it All.jpg
 
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He is the way

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View attachment 265066

Really? If we might lose eternal life, why would God give it to anyone? If your Jesus became a god, why would he become a a non-god?

As for earning eternal life, Mormonism teaches:

Doctrine and Covenants 130
20 There is a law, irrevocably decreed in heaven before the foundations of this world, upon which all blessings are predicated—

21 And when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated.


“Every key, power, and authority ever dispensed from heaven to men on earth, which is necessary for their eternal salvation, has already been restored in this dispensation” (McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p. 200). The Latter-day Saints are the recipients of those great blessings, and the Lord has said that where “much is given much is required” (D&C 82:3)....

The psalmist wrote, “O how love I thy law!” (Psalm 119:97). Is that a feeling you share, or do you sometimes feel resentful toward the laws of God? One of Satan’s most successful lies is that the commandments of God are restrictive and limiting. “If you would really be free,” he urges, “cut yourself loose from such restraints. Be free! Be independent!” The deception lies in denying the eternal principle that only obedience to law secures the blessings guaranteed by law (see D&C 130:20–21). Disobedience to law necessitates penalties, which are ordained by a loving Father to purge the souls of His children of what hinders their progression. When individuals are so purged, they can obtain as much happiness as they are willing to live for, according to the law they become capable of living (see D&C 88:21–24).
Enrichment G: The Nature and Purpose of Law

What are some of the things we must do to access the blessings of Christ’s Atonement? (We must have faith, repent, be baptized, receive the gift of the Holy Ghost, endure to the end, and receive and obey personal revelation.)
Lesson 8: Salvation Comes through Jesus Christ
lang=eng

“Our Church is founded upon the premise that spiritual growth and exaltation must be earned by the efforts of the individual.”
Henry D. Moyle, Improvement Era, December 1937, 787

“There will be a wise and just God to sit in judgment on all men. … The wicked may prosper for a time, the rebellious may seem to profit by their transgressions, but the time is coming when, at the bar of justice, all men will be judged, ‘every man according to their works’ (Rev. 20:13). No one will ‘get by’ with anything. On that day no one will escape the penalty of his deeds, no one will fail to receive the blessings he has earned."

Spencer W. Kimball, The Miracle of Forgiveness, p. 304–5

You said: "Really? If we might lose eternal life, why would God give it to anyone? If your Jesus became a god, why would he become a a non-god?"

Jesus has stated many times that blessings are conditional in scriptures like these:

(New Testament | Matthew 6:33)

33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

(New Testament | Matthew 19:24)

24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

(New Testament | Mark 9:47)

47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:

(New Testament | Mark 10:15)

15 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.

(New Testament | Luke 9:62)

62 And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.

(New Testament | John 3:5)

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

(New Testament | Acts 14:22)

22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

(New Testament | 1 Corinthians 6:9 - 10)

9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Jesus became human to take upon himself the sins of the world.:

(New Testament | Hebrews 5:7 - 9)

7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;
8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
 
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That blessing is for Abraham's seed and is a reward for Abraham's obedience.
Who are his seed?



Who knows and keeps all the commandments? Do you? Which Mormons will have treasure in heaven?

Matthew 19
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? 17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. 18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, 19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet? 21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me. 22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.
You said: "Who knows and keeps all the commandments? Do you? Which Mormons will have treasure in heaven?"

That is not up to us to decide. Jesus will be the judge, not us.
 
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He is the way

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Those who try to keep the commandments already have eternal life; the gift was already purchased by the Son of God.
And as I quoted a few moments ago:

(New Testament | Hebrews 5:7 - 9)

7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;
8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Sinning is not obedience, it is disobedience to the commandments of LOVE. Yes we should do all that we can to keep the commandments:

(New Testament | 1 John 5:3)

3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
 
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