LGBT group proposes dissolving UMC into 4 new denominations.

redleghunter · Oct 15, 2019

PloverWing said:
It's not clear to me why "Progressive" and "Liberation" would need to be two separate groups. I acknowledge that "social gospel" is 19th century language and "intersectional justice" is 21st century language, but it seems to me that the two groups would have a great deal in common.

The link I provided gives a hint at the difference and I think @Arcangl86 gave a hint to it earlier:

However, the N.E.W. Plan differs from other publicized proposals in envisioning The United Methodist Church giving rise to four separate Methodist expressions, adding liberationists to a mix that usually includes traditionalists and some combination of moderates and progressives.

“While Progressives may be defined by a desire to include all people in the church’s current form, Liberationists are interested in radically reimagining the ways we relate to one another and the world," explains UM-Forward in its Frequently Asked Questions site. "We desire to be a church where the marginalized are centered, power is redistributed, and we are free to enflesh radical actions of prophetic love in solidarity with movements for justice taking place globally.”

Whatever this means. There is an embedded link to go deeper above in the FAQ. So my take is the progressives would probably resist any changes to liturgy and church governance. Whereas the liberationists would be more accommodating to ecumenical inclusion in their church.

Mountainmike · Oct 15, 2019

Funky Slippers said:
The theologically progressive UM-Forward submitted a proposal known as the New Expressions Worldwide Plan, which if implemented would create four different Methodist denominations: a “Traditionalist Methodist Church,” a “Moderate Methodist Church,” a “Progressive Methodist Church,” and a “Liberation Methodist Church.”

Thoughts?

My thoughts are "designer churches" based on the premise "let me choose a church based around my belief and doctrine, and what I think scripture means"

But there can only be one truth. The question is where it is to be found, and whatever it is is not negotiable or "customizable" to peoples preferences.

In reality the thousands of differences in denominations centre on just one question.

Where is authority? If two disagree on doctrine, who can resolve which is true and false.

The bible answer the question. It says the apostles (together) and Peter (alone) were given the power to "bind and loose", which meant to the Jews "give definitive decisions on disputes of law and doctrine"
Jesus also said those decisions were "bound in heaven"

Since Jesus did not intend his church to last only one generation, the power was clearly handed down from generation to generation. The job of all believers is to decide who now is custodian of that power and by what chain of succesion did it reach them? Whatever they say is the truth, must be true.

Yekcidmij · Oct 15, 2019

Funky Slippers said:
The theologically progressive UM-Forward submitted a proposal known as the New Expressions Worldwide Plan, which if implemented would create four different Methodist denominations: a “Traditionalist Methodist Church,” a “Moderate Methodist Church,” a “Progressive Methodist Church,” and a “Liberation Methodist Church.”

Thoughts?

Why don't the interested parties just go start new Methodist denominations with those names? Why divide the UMC instead? I don't have a real dog in the hunt, but just curious.

Albion · Oct 15, 2019

Funky Slippers said:
The theologically progressive UM-Forward submitted a proposal known as the New Expressions Worldwide Plan, which if implemented would create four different Methodist denominations: a “Traditionalist Methodist Church,” a “Moderate Methodist Church,” a “Progressive Methodist Church,” and a “Liberation Methodist Church.”

Thoughts?

I can't imagine any UMC delegates who are NOT part of that group going for this kind of proposal to voluntarily obliterate what was once the largest Protestant denomination in the USA. It wouldn't work, anyway. Too artificial.

redleghunter · Oct 15, 2019

Mountainmike said:
My thoughts are "designer churches" based on the premise "let me choose a church based around my belief and doctrine, and what I think scripture means"

Dunno know Mike...What Scripture is available to support same-sex marriage and ordaining homosexuals? It seems the authority that is lacking is the Word of God.

These factions within the UMC departed from Biblical Christianity decades ago. How they kept it all together that long is amazing.

redleghunter · Oct 15, 2019

Albion said:
I can't imagine any UMC delegates who are NOT part of that group going for this kind of proposal to voluntarily obliterate what was once the largest Protestant denomination in the USA. It wouldn't work, anyway. Too artificial.

It would in effect not be a "United" Methodist Church.

redleghunter · Oct 15, 2019

civilwarbuff said:
I think we already have his explanation.....'I'm coming for your guns' and 'Churches that don't support LGBQTXYZ will lose their tax exempt status'......

It seems this Liberation movement believes the theology of John Wesley is 'dead':

The Rev. Alka Lyall, a General Conference delegate and UM-Forward leader, said the N.E.W. Plan is grounded in the liberation of those she believes have long been oppressed by the church institution.

“We have invested a lot of time, energy and resources in maintaining the institution and have lost our focus on the mission of our church,” said Lyall, who is also senior pastor of Broadway United Methodist Church in Chicago.

“Freeing ourselves from maintaining what is already dead, will free us to do the work that God has called us to.”

What this 'calling' is actually, don't know. Maybe liberated from their Book of Discipline statement of belief on Holy Scriptures:

United Methodists share with other Christians the conviction that Scripture is the primary source and criterion for Christian doctrine. Through Scripture the living Christ meets us in the experience of redeeming grace. We are convinced that Jesus Christ is the living Word of God in our midst whom we trust in life and death. The biblical authors, illumined by the Holy Spirit, bear witness that in Christ the world is reconciled to God. The Bible bears authentic testimony to God’s self-disclosure in the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ as well as in God’s work of creation, in the pilgrimage of Israel, and in the Holy Spirit’s ongoing activity in human history.

As we open our minds and hearts to the Word of God through the words of human beings inspired by the Holy Spirit, faith is born and nourished, our understanding is deepened, and the possibilities for transforming the world become apparent to us.

The Bible is sacred canon for Christian people, formally acknowledged as such by historic ecumenical councils of the church. Our doctrinal standards identify as canonical thirty-nine books of the Old Testament and the twenty-seven books of the New Testament.

Our standards affirm the Bible as the source of all that is “necessary” and “sufficient” unto salvation (Articles of Religion) and “is to be received through the Holy Spirit as the true rule and guide for faith and practice” (Confession of Faith).

We properly read Scripture within the believing community, informed by the tradition of that community...

We interpret individual texts in light of their place in the Bible as a whole. (Book of Discipline: Theological Guidelines: Scripture)
Book of Discipline: Theological Guidelines: Scripture – The United Methodist Church

GingerBeer · Oct 15, 2019

Funky Slippers said:
The theologically progressive UM-Forward submitted a proposal known as the New Expressions Worldwide Plan, which if implemented would create four different Methodist denominations: a “Traditionalist Methodist Church,” a “Moderate Methodist Church,” a “Progressive Methodist Church,” and a “Liberation Methodist Church.”

Thoughts?

Sounds like denomination creation at its best

redleghunter · Oct 15, 2019

Yekcidmij said:
Why don't the interested parties just go start new Methodist denominations with those names? Why divide the UMC instead? I don't have a real dog in the hunt, but just curious.

Short answer? Property and salaries. If these other groups want to split off and call themselves "Progressive Liberating Methodist church" they would no longer be a part of the UMC and in most cases the church property would be lost and also salaries for the clergy. Then consider the higher levels like the bishops. Same thing, their position and property would be forfeit. That is why they need to broker a deal and the NEW Plan offers the following from the same source link I provided earlier:

The plan calls for:

A Transitional Council to draft a plan of separation. Each of the four new denominations will name five individuals to the council, including at least two lay people from each denomination.
Consultation with the Council of Bishops, other church leadership bodies, agencies and a professional mediator in drafting the plan of separation. The plan “shall be governed by the principles of self-determination, equitable distribution of general church assets, restorative justice, and reparations.”
A special General Conference before 2024 that would take up the plan of separation.
A moratorium on complaints, charges and church trials related to the church’s restrictions around homosexuality until separation occurs.

The group UM-Forward formed in 2018 to back the Simple Plan at February’s special General Conference. That plan would have removed all church restrictions related to homosexuality.

Instead, a majority of delegates at the lawmaking assembly adopted the Traditional Plan, legislation that maintains the policy that the practice of homosexuality is “incompatible with Christian teaching” and strengthens enforcement of bans on same-gender weddings and “self-avowed practicing” gay clergy.

However, immediately after the special General Conference, the plan faced resistance from people who see the measures as discriminatory against LGBTQ churchgoers.

miggles · Oct 15, 2019

Funky Slippers said:
The theologically progressive UM-Forward submitted a proposal known as the New Expressions Worldwide Plan, which if implemented would create four different Methodist denominations: a “Traditionalist Methodist Church,” a “Moderate Methodist Church,” a “Progressive Methodist Church,” and a “Liberation Methodist Church.”

Thoughts?

i grew up methodist but seeing what it's dwindled into, along with other protestant churches, it might as well do this. the protestant churches these days are already unsightly to God. jmo

Albion · Oct 15, 2019

Why unhappy LGBTQ members wouldn't just leave and start their own Methodist church is a matter of them wanting to take the property of other UMC church members with them as they exit, then? That's a pretty bold proposal.

redleghunter · Oct 15, 2019

Albion said:
Why unhappy LGBTQ members (and supporters if they so choose), wouldn't just leave and start their own Methodist church is a matter of them wanting to take the property of other UMC church members with them as they exit, then? That's a pretty bold proposal.

I think it is important to read the details actually the grievances of the NEW Plan.

F.A.Q. — UM Forward

There was one question in the FAQ which asked:

5. What will happen to the institutions that UMC supports, such as the hospitals and seminaries?

Answer: Institutions that are not already operating as independent organizations from the UMC may become independent or choose to merge or dissolve. Independent organizations may choose to affiliate with a new denomination according to the decision of their governing bodies. Annual Conferences will need to adapt their operation to sustainable levels supported by the new denomination of their choosing. General church assets are to be divided equitably to prevent further harm to be done to local churches. Historically marginalized and particularly vulnerable churches, as determined jointly by the General Commission on Religion and Race and the General Commission on the Status and Role of Women, are to be set up for success worldwide. Injustices of colonialism, institutional racism, sexism, ableism, heterosexism, and misogyny are repaired through financial re-investment, restorative justice, and reparations (General Principles 8; 9).

How nice, go ahead and shutdown your hospital to make room for the new world order. So it's not just an even division of church assets and funding, it's reparations for perceived injustices going back to the colonial era. A fleecing of the UMC.

redleghunter · Oct 15, 2019

Here's another one...Basically saying the Progressives are not liberal enough.

7. What is the difference between the proposed new Progressive and Liberationist denominations? They seem to have the same or similar values, so why can’t they be in the same denomination together?

Answer: While there are many overlapping values between the two, Liberationists differ significantly in our foundational practice of faith and vision for the church. While Progressives may be defined by a desire to include all people in the church’s current form, Liberationists are interested in radically reimagining the ways we relate to one another and the world. We desire to be a church where the marginalized are centered, power is redistributed, and we are free to enflesh radical actions of prophetic love in solidarity with movements for justice taking place globally.

I'm sure the Progressives appreciate the 'may be defined' in the statement above.

Albion · Oct 15, 2019

redleghunter said:
How nice, go ahead and shutdown your hospital to make room for the new world order. So it's not just an even division of church assets and funding, it's reparations for perceived injustices going back to the colonial era. A fleecing of the UMC.

That's how it looked, even before getting to the details.

redleghunter · Oct 15, 2019

And please don't miss the UM-Forward Values stated on their website to fully understand their position, which is heresy:

Values
What grounds our mission and vision?

- Theologically-Prophetic Vision emerging from the intersection of Wesleyan, liberation, and queer theologies.
- Intersectional Justice and Intentional Centering of the Margins.
- Radical Solidarity as a responsibility rooted in our mutual connection and interdependence.
- Beloved Community inspired by the Extravagant Grace and Resurrection Hope of Jesus Christ and the Gospel of Liberation.
- Mutual Accountability grounded in collaborative, horizontal Leadership.
- Queerness as a spiritual, ethical, and evangelical (and not only sexual) orientation rooted deeply in the biblical witness of the non-complicit, non-conforming, non-conventional, and non-compromising Jesus of Nazareth
Vision, Mission, Values — UM Forward

civilwarbuff · Oct 15, 2019

I had no idea that it has been this fully detailed....thanks RLH.

redleghunter · Oct 15, 2019

Albion said:
That's how it looked, even before getting to the details.

And you know not even the Progressives will allow this run off by the NEW Plan to fleece the UMC. Which means years of lawsuits when the General Assembly vetoes the proposal. This is the 'rich' part of slight of hand:

The Rev. Jay Williams, a General Conference delegate who helped draft the plan, said he sees the plan as empowering to churches like the one he pastors. Union Church in Boston, which is today multiethnic, was the first predominantly African American United Methodist congregation to identify as reconciling — meaning it explicitly advocated for LGBTQ equality.

“Black people were largely enslaved in the USA when Methodism was formed at the Christmas Conference of 1784,” he said. “And black Methodists have spent the better part of our existence faithfully reforming Methodism and its sins of white supremacy, institutional racism and patriarchy. This plan imagines otherwise. The N.E.W. Plan says, ‘Let’s start from a place of shared commitment to equity, justice and liberation for all — the true core of grace and holiness.’”

Joy Butler, a lay member of St. John’s United Methodist Church in Austin, Texas, said she sees the plan as empowering crucial regional ministries such as the work the Rio Texas Conference does with immigrant families.

“The Holy Spirit is calling us to something new,” she said, “a chance to minister more fully with and to the world.”

As if the 21st Century UMC at large is somehow racist in membership and clergy. The slight of hand is they want to make this about race relations when their homepage is about 'queer theology.' Interesting UM-Forward and Progressives decried the African UMC vote for the Traditional Plan at the last General Assembly. Now the cry from UM-Forward is the UMC is not inclusive enough.

fwGod · Oct 15, 2019

Funky Slippers said:
The theologically progressive UM-Forward submitted a proposal known as the New Expressions Worldwide Plan, which if implemented would create four different Methodist denominations: a “Traditionalist Methodist Church,” a “Moderate Methodist Church,” a “Progressive Methodist Church,” and a “Liberation Methodist Church.”

Thoughts?

And so the gospel loses it's salt.

Albion · Oct 15, 2019

redleghunter said:
Which means years of lawsuits when the General Assembly vetoes the proposal.

I guess I don't see why this follows. When the traditionalists left The Episcopal Church, the courts ruled that the TEC's rules stated that the ownership of local property went to the national church, so the exiles simply had forfeited it.

I cannot imagine why the UMC situation would vary from that because of some vague claims being concocted about victimhood, etc. Not when the courts refused to get into such stuff in the Episcopal case, saying that the values and beliefs approach was beyond them, but the specific rules that are in writing concerning who owns what were not.

Silverback · Oct 15, 2019

seeking.IAM said:
I think they're called pot luck because whether the dish is good or bad is dependent upon your luck. As a Methodist PK when I went off to college I promised mom I'd still go to church but I'd never go to another pot luck again. I've kept the first promise and come pretty close to keeping the second.

I think I remember hearing it was as likely as not that it would give you food poisoning, or, botulism due to poor food preservation techniques...hence the luck part.

I swore off pot luck dinners, they are usually to divisive in the workplace. People inevitability eat who didn't bring anything, or, people get upset because they spent $15 dollars on their dish, and someone else brought a two liter of cheap store brand soda. When it's over, no one wants to clean up. So I don't do it, which has also caused issues, not being a "Team Player" and all.

LGBT group proposes dissolving UMC into 4 new denominations.

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