Arminianism is absolutely illogical and unbiblical

Albion · Oct 14, 2019

His student said:
In my opinion the truth lies about 3/4 of the way toward Reformed theology (Calvinism if we must).

I like that!

It's easily defended and, FWIW, I have friends who have that same view of the matter.

Sound Doctrine · Oct 15, 2019

What matters isn't what man says or claims to believe; what matters is what God says. He does give us a systematic breakdown of soteriology.

Man is in a “catch 22” in being saved. It is written that, “No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.” - John 6:44. “And he said, ‘Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.’” - John 6:65. Some who believe in free will to choose salvation add to the Scriptures something that is not there, that Jesus gives us a choice to come unto Him. But as is also written, “I am the way, the truth and the life. No man cometh unto the Father but by me.” - John 14:6. So we cannot come to the Father except by Jesus, and we cannot come to Jesus except it be given to us from the Father. How then are we saved? We are saved by God’s having chosen His saints from the foundation of the world; not by man’s choosing God.

Man has another “catch 22” to salvation. It is written that we all have a will, “For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good, I find not.” - Romans 7:18. So, we are not robots. And our mind is against God, “7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.” - Romans 8:7-8. And none does seek after God, 11 “There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.” - Romans 3:11-12. We will not find God if we do not seek Him, and yet we don't. How then are we saved?

John 4:23-24 - “23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.” God seeks His chosen out, it is not the other way around. We cannot worship in spirit and in truth if we do not believe the Scriptures. We can only believe the Scriptures and come to Jesus for salvation if or when the Father gives us that saving grace through faith.

Ephesians 2:8-9 - "8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast."

It is not Arminius or Calvin, but the truth of God's own word that matters.

FreeGrace2 · Oct 15, 2019

Sound Doctrine said:
What matters isn't what man says or claims to believe; what matters is what God says. He does give us a systematic breakdown of soteriology.

Man is in a “catch 22” in being saved. It is written that

From CATCH-22 | meaning in the Cambridge English Dictionary

"an impossible situation where you are prevented from doing one thing until you have done another thing that you cannot do until you have done the first thing"

, “No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.” - John 6:44. “And he said, ‘Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.’” - John 6:65. Some who believe in free will to choose salvation add to the Scriptures something that is not there, that Jesus gives us a choice to come unto Him. But as is also written, “I am the way, the truth and the life. No man cometh unto the Father but by me.” - John 14:6. So we cannot come to the Father except by Jesus, and we cannot come to Jesus except it be given to us from the Father. How then are we saved? We are saved by God’s having chosen His saints from the foundation of the world; not by man’s choosing God.

Man has another “catch 22” to salvation. It is written that we all have a will, “For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good, I find not.” - Romans 7:18. So, we are not robots. And our mind is against God, “7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.” - Romans 8:7-8. And none does seek after God, 11 “There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.” - Romans 3:11-12. We will not find God if we do not seek Him, and yet we don't. How then are we saved?

John 4:23-24 - “23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.” God seeks His chosen out, it is not the other way around. We cannot worship in spirit and in truth if we do not believe the Scriptures. We can only believe the Scriptures and come to Jesus for salvation if or when the Father gives us that saving grace through faith.

Ephesians 2:8-9 - "8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast."

It is not Arminius or Calvin, but the truth of God's own word that matters.

I don't really see any catch 22 in any of these verses.

Could you explain how salvation is a catch 22?

Thanks.

Sound Doctrine · Oct 15, 2019

FreeGrace2 said:
From CATCH-22 | meaning in the Cambridge English Dictionary

"an impossible situation where you are prevented from doing one thing until you have done another thing that you cannot do until you have done the first thing"

I don't really see any catch 22 in any of these verses.

Could you explain how salvation is a catch 22?

Thanks.

Sound Doctrine said:
We cannot come to the Father except by Jesus, and we cannot come to Jesus except it be given to us from the Father. How then are we saved? We are saved by God’s having chosen His saints from the foundation of the world; not by man’s choosing God.

It is impossible for us to come to Jesus and be saved of our own will because our will is against God. No one seeks after God, no, not one. the Bible tells us it is impossible:

Mark 10:26-27 - “26 And they were astonished out of measure, saying among themselves, ‘Who then can be saved?’
27 And Jesus looking upon them saith, ‘With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible.’”

FreeGrace2 · Oct 15, 2019

Sound Doctrine said:
It is impossible for us to come to Jesus and be saved of our own will because our will is against God. No one seeks after God, no, not one.

What is true is the doctrine of total depravity. But unlike reformed theology, total depravity doesn't include an inability to believe.

Since God has taken the proverbial "first step", man's response is to that first step.

What is the first step? God has revealed Himself in creation, so that man has no excuse for recognizing God as Creator and being thankful to Him.

Rom 1:19-21.
19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.
20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.
21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened.

the Bible tells us it is impossible:

Mark 10:26-27 - “26 And they were astonished out of measure, saying among themselves, ‘Who then can be saved?’
27 And Jesus looking upon them saith, ‘With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible.’”

What is impossible is for man to save himself. He cannot do that. That's what is impossible for man to do.

But the salvation of man is in God's hands, and is not impossible.

1 Cor 1:21 - For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

This verse teaches that God saves those who believe. It does not teach that God causes who will believe, which is the bedrock of Calvinism's doctrine of election.

But election isn't even about salvation. But that's for another thread.

BradB · Oct 15, 2019

Here's a copy of a letter I sent to Grace to You. I have yet to receive a response. Perhaps someone who believes in election here would care to respond?

Dear Grace to You,

I am writing in the hopes you can help me. I have been listening to Dr. Macarthur's teaching on election (aka predestination) and have found it very troubling with what I read in my Lord's Holy word. I was hoping you could maybe help me to reconcile the teaching of election with these specific verses.

In Acts 20:26-27 Paul said: "Therefore I testify to you this day that I am innocent of the blood of all men. For I have not shunned to declare to you the whole counsel of God."
This seems like an odd statement from someone who affirmed the doctrine of Election. The flip side to this coin is that Paul believed had he not proclaimed the whole counsel of God that he would have been guilty of the blood of all men. Clearly this implies that he believes the choice is up to the hearers and his actions of presenting the choice frees him of any guilt to rather or not they accept the truth.
Then in 1Timothy 2:3-4 Paul writes: " For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth."
The problem I have is that if according to scripture God desires "ALL" men to be saved but only elects a certain small few to be saved, then doesn't that turn God into a schizophrenia who claims to desire one thing however "elects" to do something quite different?
Likewise in 2Peter 3:9 Peter writes: "The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance."
Here Peter tells us that God's will is that not any should perish but should come to repentance. Again if that is really the "will" of God and yet He "elects" to only save some while not giving the majority even the ability to repent and escape perishing, what does that say about God?
In Ezekiel 18:23 God makes it clear that he takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked. He prefers that they should repent and live. Apparently this would indicate the choice is theirs apart from so-called election. In 1st Corinthians 9:22 Paul makes it clear that he believes the things that he does do indeed have an Eternal effect on the destination of others. This seems to me to fly in the face of the doctrine of election. In Matthew 22 Jesus gives us a parable of the great wedding feast and at the end of this parable he said many are called but few are chosen. At the wedding feast in the parable the call went out to whosoever Will however the ones who were chosen to remain at the feast where those who chose to respond, and to respond in the way the king expected by wearing the Kings wedding garments.
I agree that no one can come to the father except the father draws him, however in John 12: 32 Jesus made it clear that if he be lifted up He will draw all men. Many other scriptures I read that conflict with the doctrine of election. However these are the really big ones I need help reconciling.

FreeGrace2 · Oct 15, 2019

BradB said:
Here's a copy of a letter I sent to Grace to You. I have yet to receive a response. Perhaps someone who believes in election here would care to respond?

First, good for you in writing to GTY with a question about reconciling what MacArthur teaches with what can be clearly read in the Word.

Second, I believe in election, but not the Calvinist version. Calvinists believe that God elects people to salvation by regenerating the "elect", which allows them to believe.

So, in effect, God chooses who will believe. That is definitely not found in the Bible.

The biblical doctrine of election is about being chosen for service. In fact, God has chosen every believer for service. This is found in Eph 1:4 - For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love

Paul identifies who the "us" in v.4 are in v.19 - and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is the same as the mighty strength

So, v.4 is saying that "God elects believers...to be holy and blameless. That is service.

Here are all the examples of who God has elected:

Examples of Election

1. Election of Christ: Isa 42:1 "Behold, My Servant, whom I uphold; My chosen one in whom My soul delights. I have put My Spirit upon Him; He will bring forth justice to the nations.
Matt 12:18 "Behold, My Servant whom I have chosen; My Beloved in whom My soul is well-pleased; I will put My Spirit upon Him, And He shall proclaim justice to the Gentiles.

Luke 9:35 And a voice came out of the cloud, saying, "This is My Son, My Chosen One; listen to Him!"

Luke 23:35 And the people stood by, looking on. And even the rulers were sneering at Him, saying, "He saved others; let Him save Himself if this is the Christ of God, His Chosen One.

1 Peter 2:6 For this is contained in Scripture: "Behold I lay in Zion a choice stone, a precious corner stone, And he who believes in Him shall not be disappointed."

2. Election of Israel: Amos 3:2 "You only have I chosen among all the families of the earth; Therefore, I will punish you for all your iniquities."

Deut 7:6 "For you are a holy people to the LORD your God; the LORD your God has chosen you to be a people for His own possession out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth.

3. Election of Angels: 1 Tim 5:21 I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus and of His chosen angels, to maintain these principles without bias, doing nothing in a spirit of partiality.

4. Election of the Church or body of Christ: Eph 1:4a just as He chose us (believers) in Him… v.19 defines “us” as “those who believe”. 1 Pet 2:9 - But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nations people belonging to God, that you may declare the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His wonderful light.

5. Other elections:

Paul: Acts 9:15 But the Lord said to him, "Go, for he is a chosen instrument of Mine, to bear My name before the Gentiles and kings and the sons of Israel;

1 Tim 1:12 I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who has given me strength, that he considered me trustworthy, appointing me to his service.

Apostles: John 6:70 Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!” {Judas was chosen to betray the Lord}

John 15:16 "You did not choose Me, but I chose you , and appointed you, that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask of the Father in My name, He may give to you.

1 Cor 1:27-28 27 But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. 28 God chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are,

What is obvious is that all of these examples represent being chosen or elected for service, and none were chosen for salvation.

Dear Grace to You,

I am writing in the hopes you can help me. I have been listening to Dr. Macarthur's teaching on election (aka predestination) and have found it very troubling with what I read in my Lord's Holy word. I was hoping you could maybe help me to reconcile the teaching of election with these specific verses.

In Acts 20:26-27 Paul said: "Therefore I testify to you this day that I am innocent of the blood of all men. For I have not shunned to declare to you the whole counsel of God."
This seems like an odd statement from someone who affirmed the doctrine of Election. The flip side to this coin is that Paul believed had he not proclaimed the whole counsel of God that he would have been guilty of the blood of all men. Clearly this implies that he believes the choice is up to the hearers and his actions of presenting the choice frees him of any guilt to rather or not they accept the truth.
Then in 1Timothy 2:3-4 Paul writes: " For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth."
The problem I have is that if according to scripture God desires "ALL" men to be saved but only elects a certain small few to be saved, then doesn't that turn God into a schizophrenia who claims to desire one thing however "elects" to do something quite different?
Likewise in 2Peter 3:9 Peter writes: "The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance."
Here Peter tells us that God's will is that not any should perish but should come to repentance. Again if that is really the "will" of God and yet He "elects" to only save some while not giving the majority even the ability to repent and escape perishing, what does that say about God?
In Ezekiel 18:23 God makes it clear that he takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked. He prefers that they should repent and live. Apparently this would indicate the choice is theirs apart from so-called election. In 1st Corinthians 9:22 Paul makes it clear that he believes the things that he does do indeed have an Eternal effect on the destination of others. This seems to me to fly in the face of the doctrine of election. In Matthew 22 Jesus gives us a parable of the great wedding feast and at the end of this parable he said many are called but few are chosen. At the wedding feast in the parable the call went out to whosoever Will however the ones who were chosen to remain at the feast where those who chose to respond, and to respond in the way the king expected by wearing the Kings wedding garments.
I agree that no one can come to the father except the father draws him, however in John 12: 32 Jesus made it clear that if he be lifted up He will draw all men. Many other scriptures I read that conflict with the doctrine of election. However these are the really big ones I need help reconciling.

I hope GTY will respond. If they do, please share their response in this thread.

Thanks

BradB · Oct 15, 2019

FreeGrace2 said:
First, good for you in writing to GTY with a question about reconciling what MacArthur teaches with what can be clearly read in the Word.

Second, I believe in election, but not the Calvinist version. Calvinists believe that God elects people to salvation by regenerating the "elect", which allows them to believe.

So, in effect, God chooses who will believe. That is definitely not found in the Bible.

The biblical doctrine of election is about being chosen for service. In fact, God has chosen every believer for service. This is found in Eph 1:4 - For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love

Paul identifies who the "us" in v.4 are in v.19 - and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is the same as the mighty strength

So, v.4 is saying that "God elects believers...to be holy and blameless. That is service.

Here are all the examples of who God has elected:

Examples of Election

1. Election of Christ: Isa 42:1 "Behold, My Servant, whom I uphold; My chosen one in whom My soul delights. I have put My Spirit upon Him; He will bring forth justice to the nations.
Matt 12:18 "Behold, My Servant whom I have chosen; My Beloved in whom My soul is well-pleased; I will put My Spirit upon Him, And He shall proclaim justice to the Gentiles.

Luke 9:35 And a voice came out of the cloud, saying, "This is My Son, My Chosen One; listen to Him!"

Luke 23:35 And the people stood by, looking on. And even the rulers were sneering at Him, saying, "He saved others; let Him save Himself if this is the Christ of God, His Chosen One.

1 Peter 2:6 For this is contained in Scripture: "Behold I lay in Zion a choice stone, a precious corner stone, And he who believes in Him shall not be disappointed."

2. Election of Israel: Amos 3:2 "You only have I chosen among all the families of the earth; Therefore, I will punish you for all your iniquities."

Deut 7:6 "For you are a holy people to the LORD your God; the LORD your God has chosen you to be a people for His own possession out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth.

3. Election of Angels: 1 Tim 5:21 I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus and of His chosen angels, to maintain these principles without bias, doing nothing in a spirit of partiality.

4. Election of the Church or body of Christ: Eph 1:4a just as He chose us (believers) in Him… v.19 defines “us” as “those who believe”. 1 Pet 2:9 - But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nations people belonging to God, that you may declare the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His wonderful light.

5. Other elections:

Paul: Acts 9:15 But the Lord said to him, "Go, for he is a chosen instrument of Mine, to bear My name before the Gentiles and kings and the sons of Israel;

1 Tim 1:12 I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who has given me strength, that he considered me trustworthy, appointing me to his service.

Apostles: John 6:70 Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!” {Judas was chosen to betray the Lord}

John 15:16 "You did not choose Me, but I chose you , and appointed you, that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask of the Father in My name, He may give to you.

1 Cor 1:27-28 27 But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. 28 God chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are,

What is obvious is that all of these examples represent being chosen or elected for service, and none were chosen for salvation.

I hope GTY will respond. If they do, please share their response in this thread.

Thanks

Yes that is the kind of election the Bible teaches and I strongly hold to. Thank you so much for your comments. John A. and others seem to be motivated under the premise that if we have the freedom to choose to receive Christ, then we will have grounds to boast in heaven. Is that your impression as well? I find that to be a ridiculous argument. The very nature of a gift is that it must be freely received. However the recipient has no grounds to boast over his reception of the gift. I can't imagine anyone in heaven bragging about how good they are at receiving God's gift.

God's blessings to you my friend.
Brad

FreeGrace2 · Oct 16, 2019

BradB said:
Yes that is the kind of election the Bible teaches and I strongly hold to. Thank you so much for your comments. John A. and others seem to be motivated under the premise that if we have the freedom to choose to receive Christ, then we will have grounds to boast in heaven. Is that your impression as well?

I agree with this. Also, Arminians think if we have the freedom to choose Christ, we have the same freedom to lose salvation, which is even worse.

I find that to be a ridiculous argument.

Amen to that!

The very nature of a gift is that it must be freely received. However the recipient has no grounds to boast over his reception of the gift. I can't imagine anyone in heaven bragging about how good they are at receiving God's gift.

God's blessings to you my friend.
Brad

And to you as well!! It's always a pleasure to find other believers who understand Scripture and aren't led astray by false theologies!

BradB · Oct 16, 2019

FreeGrace2 said:
I agree with this. Also, Arminians think if we have the freedom to choose Christ, we have the same freedom to lose salvation, which is even worse.

Amen to that!

And to you as well!! It's always a pleasure to find other believers who understand Scripture and aren't led astray by false theologies!

Yes I lived the first ten years of my Christian walk believing I could slip and lose my salvation. Until one day God quickened 1 Peter 1:5 to me. I am kept by the power of the one who spoke the universe into existence, not by the power of me. The Lord showed me I am like a man who was drowning in the ocean and the coast guard rescuer swooped in and reached out His nail scarred hand saying "take my hand and live." I freely took His hand and the rest was up to Him. He pulled me out and wisked me off to safety. I am now on dry land. I may stumble or fall, but there's no chance I would end up back in the middle of the ocean.

FreeGrace2 · Oct 16, 2019

BradB said:
Yes I lived the first ten years of my Christian walk believing I could slip and lose my salvation. Until one day God quickened 1 Peter 1:5 to me. I am kept by the power of the one who spoke the universe into existence, not by the power of me. The Lord showed me I am like a man who was drowning in the ocean and the coast guard rescuer swooped in and reached out His nail scarred hand saying "take my hand and live." I freely took His hand and the rest was up to Him. He pulled me out and wisked me off to safety. I am now on dry land. I may stumble or fall, but there's no chance I would end up back in the middle of the ocean.

Amen to that!!

Steven Beck · Oct 16, 2019

Sound Doctrine said:
What matters isn't what man says or claims to believe; what matters is what God says. He does give us a systematic breakdown of soteriology.

Man is in a “catch 22” in being saved. It is written that, “No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.” - John 6:44. “And he said, ‘Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.’” - John 6:65. Some who believe in free will to choose salvation add to the Scriptures something that is not there, that Jesus gives us a choice to come unto Him. But as is also written, “I am the way, the truth and the life. No man cometh unto the Father but by me.” - John 14:6. So we cannot come to the Father except by Jesus, and we cannot come to Jesus except it be given to us from the Father. How then are we saved? We are saved by God’s having chosen His saints from the foundation of the world; not by man’s choosing God.

Man has another “catch 22” to salvation. It is written that we all have a will, “For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good, I find not.” - Romans 7:18. So, we are not robots. And our mind is against God, “7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.” - Romans 8:7-8. And none does seek after God, 11 “There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.” - Romans 3:11-12. We will not find God if we do not seek Him, and yet we don't. How then are we saved?

John 4:23-24 - “23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.” God seeks His chosen out, it is not the other way around. We cannot worship in spirit and in truth if we do not believe the Scriptures. We can only believe the Scriptures and come to Jesus for salvation if or when the Father gives us that saving grace through faith.

Ephesians 2:8-9 - "8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast."

It is not Arminius or Calvin, but the truth of God's own word that matters.

"Man is in a “catch 22” in being saved. It is written that, “No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.” - John 6:44."

There is no "Catch 22" 2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance. So why the Father NOT DRAW anyone?

"“I am the way, the truth and the life. No man cometh unto the Father but by me.” - John 14:6. So we cannot come to the Father except by Jesus, and we cannot come to Jesus except it be given to us from the Father. How then are we saved? We are saved by God’s having chosen His saints from the foundation of the world; not by man’s choosing God."

I have already invalidated the first part and we can only have eternal life through Jesus, not Buddha or Mohammad or any other person. It does not say anywhere in the bible that he has "chosen His saints before the foundation of the world".

You have misread Eph 1:4 as do most people.
Eph 1:4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him.

First we have to be IN HIM before we are chosen for anything therefore we have to choose Jesus first therefore this verse is only talking to people who have already become saints.

Second we are chosen for what? To be HOLY AND BLAMELESS. What does this mean. It means that the Father sees us through the sacrifice that Jesus made. His blood took away our sins past present and future. The Father sees us as Holy and Blameless even when we are far from it. Of course our Christian walk dictates that we become a Holy as possible but in our sinful earthly bodies we cannot be holy and blameless within ourselves.

Third, when did it happen? Before God undertook project MAN, the Father gave all responsibility to Jesus that He will see those that follow Jesus as Holy and Blameless. You see if Adam & Eve had not sinned by listening to Satan and they had eaten from the Tree of Life they would have been IN HIM (Jesus) and history would be completely different. As it was Adam did sin and Jesus made restitution for Adam and by implication ALL MANKIND and if we are IN HIM then the Father sees us as HOLY and BLAMELESS.

Therefore no catch 22. We as human being are free agents. The Holy Spirit whizzes around the world drawing people to the Gospel some respond some don't but we have to make a conscious and deliberate choice to follow Jesus.

Deu 30:19 I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse. Therefore choose life, that you and your offspring may live,

Eze 18:21 “But if a wicked person turns away from all his sins that he has committed and keeps all my statutes and does what is just and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die.

Eze 18:23 Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked, declares the Lord GOD, and not rather that he should turn from his way and live?

Eze 18:24 But when a righteous person turns away from his righteousness and does injustice and does the same abominations that the wicked person does, shall he live? None of the righteous deeds that he has done shall be remembered; for the treachery of which he is guilty and the sin he has committed, for them he shall die.

Php 2:12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling,

Joh 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Dr. Jack · Oct 20, 2019

Sound Doctrine said:
It is impossible for us to come to Jesus and be saved of our own will because our will is against God. No one seeks after God, no, not one. the Bible tells us it is impossible:

Mark 10:26-27 - “26 And they were astonished out of measure, saying among themselves, ‘Who then can be saved?’
27 And Jesus looking upon them saith, ‘With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible.’”

I haven't commented in a while, so here we go again.

1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Romans

Have you ever driven down a major highway and wished they would just get rid of 'billboards'?

They are so annoying! Everywhere you look, some company puts up a billboard to make you see their product, you simply cannot avoid them if you travel on most roads.

Let's face it, I really don't know anyone (any typical person), that tries to find 'billboards'; yet, there they are, every day, everywhere!

We don't much think about how God created the universe in the exact same way, making all that we see in the creation, a giant billboard that says, "This is impossible without God"!!!

Yes ladies and gentlemen, nature around us is a giant billboard that tells us that God is real. He does exist! Folks, you no more have to look for God, than you must hunt for air to breath ... it's always there; and so is the proclaimation of creation saying, Here is God!!

The fact of the matter is, sinners don't just not seek God in the sense of saying, Where is God?, but they actually deny that which is blatantly obvious, before their very eyes!

That is precisely why we read in verse 20, "they are without excuse".

No, God has revealed Himself to all of us, and He therefore expects us to acknowledge Him.

Sound Doctrine · Oct 21, 2019

To answer each of the posts on this page alone would require a lengthy post, in order to address each point being made. I would be repeating myself from earlier posts I made in this thread. People don't generally read lengthy posts. What I have posted from the Bible should be sufficient, but with you folks, it is not. You simply don't believe in ALMIGHTY GOD. You call Him a liar and impotent with your free will beliefs. Some of you are conflicted, saying you can lose your salvation OR OSAS, but with free will. One cannot have OSAS with free will choice. The Bible teaches OSAS. Some say it is both predestination and free will. Those of you in those beliefs are confused because you don not believe what the Bible blatantly points out, that God has chosen His saints from the beginning, and is not just sitting there in heaven filling out the Lamb's Book of Life. If any of you would be interested in such a long post showing the error of your thinking regarding free will, I may consider putting in such Scriptures that show that the choices we are told to make are with regard to life are ON EARTH, not pertinent to eternal life, and that God knew from the beginning who would choose life, regarding those OT examples of God telling us to choose life, such as in Deuteronomy 30 or Joshua 24. We are not saved by works, even when we do God's will. We are saved by grace through faith, which is a gift of God. Ephesians 2:8-9 - "8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast."

Dr. Jack · Oct 21, 2019

Sound Doctrine said:
To answer each of the posts on this page alone would require a lengthy post, in order to address each point being made. I would be repeating myself from earlier posts I made in this thread. People don't generally read lengthy posts. What I have posted from the Bible should be sufficient, but with you folks, it is not.

Maybe you can 'indentify' ""you folks"?

You simply don't believe in ALMIGHTY GOD.

That is quite an assertion ... Could you please support that assertion with credible evidence?

You call Him a liar and impotent with your free will beliefs.

I seem to recall several texts in which we are told to choose. Additionally Jesus said,
23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Matthew

This text not only proves that man has a will, but that will can be exercised against that which Jesus Himself willed. Notice; "would I have", and "ye would not". Was Jesus also calling His Father a liar, and impotent?

Some of you are conflicted, saying you can lose your salvation OR OSAS, but with free will. One cannot have OSAS with free will choice.

Why can one notvhave OSAS with free will choice?

The Bible teaches OSAS.

Ageed.

Some say it is both predestination and free will.

Actually, I say it is NOT predestination, it is "free will", and it is OSAS.

Those of you in those beliefs are confused because you don not believe what the Bible blatantly points out, that God has chosen His saints from the beginning, and is not just sitting there in heaven filling out the Lamb's Book of Life.

That isn't me, no I need not address it. (At this time.)

If any of you would be interested in such a long post showing the error of your thinking regarding free will, I may consider putting in such Scriptures that show that the choices we are told to make are with regard to life are ON EARTH, not pertinent to eternal life, and that God knew from the beginning who would choose life, regarding those OT examples of God telling us to choose life, such as in Deuteronomy 30 or Joshua 24.

Now you have moved the goal posts. First you said there is no free will, now you are qualifying free will. Not a good way to present a solid argument.

We are not saved by works, even when we do God's will. We are saved by grace through faith, which is a gift of God. Ephesians 2:8-9 - "8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast."

Agreed.

FreeGrace2 · Oct 21, 2019

Sound Doctrine said:
You call Him a liar and impotent with your free will beliefs.

Please explain yourself. I believe that God created man with a free will. So how is that making Him a liar and/or impotent? Your claim doesn't make sense.

One cannot have OSAS with free will choice.

Please explain yourself again. How are they incompatible? I have no problem with both being true.

Those of you in those beliefs are confused because you don not believe what the Bible blatantly points out, that God has chosen His saints from the beginning

Of course the Bible "blatantly points out that God has chosen His saints from the beginning". What you don't complete is the REASON for which they were chosen.

I expect you are reformed, with reformed doctrine. Therefore, your understanding of "election" is totally flawed, all the way through.

Election has NEVER been about salvation. It is only about service. God chooses who will serve Him. Sometimes He uses unbelievers to fulfill His will.

John 6
70 Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!”
71 (He meant Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, who, though one of the Twelve, was later to betray him.)

Judas was one of the "chosen", and he never believed and went into perdition.

All of the examples of those who were chosen cannot be explained as being chosen for salvation. But all of them CAN be explained as being chosen for service.

There are several verses that specifically state that they were chosen for service.

I'd be happy to explain, if you are open minded about it.

[We are not saved by works, even when we do God's will. We are saved by grace through faith, which is a gift of God. Ephesians 2:8-9 - "8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast."

Amen to that!!

Not even Eph 1:4 is about being chosen for salvation. It is easily explained.

Sound Doctrine · Oct 21, 2019

FreeGrace2 said:
Not even Eph 1:4 is about being chosen for salvation. It is easily explained.

Please explain this verse then.

tampasteve · Oct 21, 2019

MOD HAT ON

This thread is now permanently closed due to goading and flaming.

MOD HAT OFF

Arminianism is absolutely illogical and unbiblical

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