Long Term Doubt vs Strong Belief - what is more honest?

cloudyday2

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Really? You tickle me, Cloudy! And all this time I've been on CF, I thought you new my position on most things. Oh, dude! ^_^ .....I'm a Theistic Evolutionist, or Evolutionary, Existential Theistic Christian, or however someone may want to try to classify it all. I started with Carl Sagan and I've worked my way in life from there.........

Oh yes, I'm already familiar with the Minimalist/Maximalist/In Between debate about the historicity of Israel, along with the various intricacies of the Documentary Hypothesis and all that. Again, I thought you already knew this about me. But if not, now you know.

So, what category do I belong in, and am I "dishonest"? :dontcare:

So why not sweep Christianity into the dustbin of history? What is it that makes you label yourself "Christian" as opposed to something else? Once that reason is identified I can render my verdict on your honesty.
 
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BigV

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I however we honor these fruits and gifts of the Spirit we are given to much much more.

Well, the other verses are not nullifying John 14:12, do they? So, assuming you are a believer, what was the last miracle you performed?
 
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drich0150

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Well, the other verses are not nullifying John 14:12, do they? So, assuming you are a believer, what was the last miracle you performed?
Again not us the power is not in man, but Given or lent by the Holy Spirit. So the question should be what things has the holy Spirit done for me or through me. I have a few detailed out in my previous post on the last page that you seem to have over looked.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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So why not sweep Christianity into the dustbin of history? What is it that makes you label yourself "Christian" as opposed to something else? Once that reason is identified I can render my verdict on your honesty.
....all these years, Cloudy, I've been explaining this stuff. Where have you been, bro?! ^_^

I'll be glad to attempt to once again lay out some general reasons as to why I count myself as a Christian, but here's the caveat: I'm not sure that I should fully adopt your own axiological assessments that feed into your idea of what constitutes "honesty" as a virtue or as a moral character trait of a human being. [Fortunately, this rebellion of mine against those who would wish to judge me owes some of its teeth and thanks to the field of Analytic Philosophy as well....]

Do you see how this whole thread is problematic from the get go? In addition to the complications that I mentioned earlier to another poster involving not only your [and his] assessment of "honesty" but also its relation to other ethical values such as integrity, I also think that the latter [i.e. integrity] has MORE weight than does honesty and should be very seriously considered in the overall epistemological assessment.

So, I apologize if I won't just entrust and hand myself over to the judges here, but since this OP is indeed a question of my very integrity as one who uses some level of Pascalian and Kierkegaardian ideology (and Philosophical Hermeneutics, to boot), I'm tempted to turn the whole thing back upon my executioners and-- alluding to my quote from Pascal listed in the OP--then ask, "Why should I think any of you indeed qualifies as purely SINCERE in your own concerns over those issues that Pascal brings to the fore ...?"
 
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cloudyday2

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....all these years, Cloudy, I've been explaining this stuff. Where have you been, bro?! ^_^

I'll be glad to attempt to once again lay out some general reasons as to why I count myself as a Christian, but here's the caveat: I'm not sure that I should fully adopt your own axiological assessments that feed into your idea of what constitutes "honesty" as a virtue or as a moral character trait of a human being. [Fortunately, this rebellion of mine against those who would wish to judge me owes some of its teeth and thanks to the field of Analytic Philosophy as well....]

Do you see how this whole thread is problematic from the get go? In addition to the complications that I mentioned earlier to another poster involving not only your [and his] assessment of "honesty" but also its relation to other ethical values such as integrity, I also think that the latter [i.e. integrity] has MORE weight than does honesty and should be very seriously considered in the overall epistemological assessment.

So, I apologize if I won't just entrust and hand myself over to the judges here, but since this OP is indeed a question of my very integrity as one who uses some level of Pascalian and Kierkegaardian ideology (and Philosophical Hermeneutics, to boot), I'm tempted to turn the whole thing back upon my executioners and-- alluding to my quote from Pascal listed in the OP--then ask, "Why should I think any of you indeed qualifies as purely SINCERE in your own concerns over those issues that Pascal brings to the fore ...?"
It sounds to me like you are saying "my reasons are so fancy that I can't explain them on CF".

To quote the OP from @BigV, "What is more honest, an assurance based on unverifiable, unfalsifiable or otherwise fallacious suppositions, or a search for truth and remaining in doubt until a verifiable, falsifiable and/or otherwise scientifically sound answer is obtained?". Without tackling your honesty yet, do you have any reasons that are "verifiable, falsifiable and/or otherwise scientifically sound"?

This brings up another issue. If Christianity is true would it then be "verifiable, falsifiable and/or otherwise scientifically sound"? There are some historical claims in Christianity, and God makes some claims/promises about life BEFORE death as well as life AFTER death.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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It sounds to me like you are saying "my reasons are so fancy that I can't explain them on CF".
In one way that accords with a few things that Pascal and Kierkegaraard have said, your surmising could have the ring of truth to it; but then again, I can put the shoe on the other foot and ask you to make a comprehensive---nay, an exhaustive list---of every jot and tittle, detail, field, discovery, insight, criteria, aptitude, or epistemic assurance that one must have to be considered "honest" when deliberating and musing over the possibility that Christianity may be true. Truthfully, I have yet to see such a list and one, at that, which all can unanimously agree upon.

So, maybe just this once, let's dispense with the airs of condescension that either side in this discussion could attempt to play upon the other in a bid to 'prove' the validity of one or the other side. I don't do this to my opponents; and I sure don't expect them to do it to me. If anything, what may be expected from me is not a condescending attitude that "all you atheists are in denial of the truth," but rather a sharp criticism from me that skeptics are not really as sure of everything they think they're sure of, just as much as may be said that some Christians in various circles are also not as sure of everything in their respective theologies as would seem to be by the claims they make.

To quote the OP from @BigV, "What is more honest, an assurance based on unverifiable, unfalsifiable or otherwise fallacious suppositions, or a search for truth and remaining in doubt until a verifiable, falsifiable and/or otherwise scientifically sound answer is obtained?". Without tackling your honesty yet, do you have any reasons that are "verifiable, falsifiable and/or otherwise scientifically sound"?
The answer is, and always has been, a hearty "no." To demand that faith in Christianity be of only verifiable proportions skirts around a whole lot of epistemological issues, and if skirting the complexities of epistemology won't work in science, I'm sure this is doubly so where Christian faith is concerned, especially since they both admit to be different kinds of cognitive projects. In reflection of all of what I've just said, I'd say it's probably high time for folks on both sides of the Christian/Atheist spectrum to grapple with this as being yet another 'truth' which sits before their faces, yet remaining unrecognized, as is usual.

This brings up another issue. If Christianity is true would it then be "verifiable, falsifiable and/or otherwise scientifically sound"?
This is going to depend on how one defines, and the extent to which one then brings into account, the various considerations that are inherent to the fields of Historiography and the Philosophy of History, as well as Epistemology and Philosophical Hermeneutics. I've stated this before in other areas here on CF more than once.

There are some historical claims in Christianity, and God makes some claims/promises about life BEFORE death as well as life AFTER death.
They are claims, whether they are and to what extent they portend to be historical in nature always remains to be seen, just like many claims from the past. The way some of you skeptics talk, one would think that verification is an assured thing if something is true; but if there is one thing I'm sure of is it's that skeptics aren't really as sure of the results of a positivist, verificationist assessment of the world around them as they would have us think they are, nor are they as motivated to really affirm all of that as tell themselves that they are. Let's face it, Cloudy: the past is not simply a matter of figuring out some mathematical equation, and this is the case no matter how many Richard Carrier or Bart Ehrman books one can pile up, one on top of another.
 
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cloudyday2

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They are claims, whether they are and to what extent they portend to be historical in nature always remains to be seen, just like many claims from the past. The way some of you skeptics talk, one would think that verification is an assured thing if something is true
The first step would be to identify a set of Christian claims that are potentially verifiable and are also "important" - i.e. being true helps the case for Christianity or being false hurts the case.

Would the Nicene Creed be a place to start or is there some other list?
 
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2PhiloVoid

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The first step would be to identify a set of Christian claims that are potentially verifiable and are also "important" - i.e. being true helps the case for Christianity and being false hurts the case.

Would the Nicene Creed be a place to start or is there some other list?

No, but starting with something more moderate by accepting that certain individuals in the 1st century existed and lived and have provided interesting, true and/or meaningful insights might be a good start. Maybe we could very modestly assert that Paul and Josephus indeed lived, existed and stated this or that claim.

But then again.....................................to say, "Hey, let's start out by making an accounting of what ideas, concepts or persons in Christianity have some kind of historical verification and then treat those as AXIOMS by which we could then build and build and build and arrive as some kind of approximation of high confidence about it all," .............. would be epistemologically misguided, especially if LESSING'S DITCH (via Kierkegaard and indirectly Pascal) has any bearing upon our processes of affirmation which we might try to apply to all of these things, and I think it does.
 
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cloudyday2

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No, but starting with something more moderate by accepting that certain individuals in the 1st century existed and lived and have provided interesting, true and/or meaningful insights might be a good start. Maybe we could very modestly and assert that Paul and Josephus indeed lived, existed and stated this or that claim.
Maybe we can go even more basic? What did Pascal think was required for a person to go to heaven?
- As a non-believer, I know ABOUT the claim that Jesus will grant forgiveness to any who ask. According to some NDE stories a person can ask for forgiveness after death, so a non-believer who knows about this claim and disbelieves it during life can still utilize it after death.
- Maybe the ritual of baptism is the only requirement?
- Maybe a person must follow the teachings of Jesus, and belief/faith is only important as a precondition for righteous living?
- Maybe a sincere prayer asking for forgiveness is essential along with a reply from God in the form of a conversion experience?
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Maybe we can go even more basic? What did Pascal think was required for a person to go to heaven?
Oh, Pascal was a Jansenist more or less and he believed in the basic Catholic doctrines, all of which I, being the "philosophical scavenger" that I am, run through my own analytic scrutiny, taking what I think is useful and cogent and doing so as I see fit to do just as I would with the assertions made by any other philosopher or scholar.

- As a non-believer, I know ABOUT the claim that Jesus will grant forgiveness to any who ask. According to some NDE stories a person can ask for forgiveness after death, so a non-believer who knows about this claim and disbelieves it during life can still utilize it after death.
- Maybe the ritual of baptism is the only requirement?
- Maybe a person must follow the teachings of Jesus, and belief/faith is only important as a precondition for righteous living?
- Maybe a sincere prayer asking for forgiveness is essential along with a reply from God in the form of a conversion experience?
And from whom are you going to extract these supposed required essentials of belief, specifically, and why "these" and why "them"?
 
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cloudyday2

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And from whom are you going to extract these supposed required essentials of belief, specifically, and why "these" and why "them"?
Why don't we pretend you are the pope of Christendom and you can make the list? That would be one person's version of Christianity, and we can examine that list to see what types of claims we have?
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Why don't we pretend you are the pope of Christendom and you can make the list? That would be one person's version of Christianity, and we can examine that list to see what types of claims we have?

Cloudy, Cloudy, Cloudy! What am I going to do with you, my friend? You know how I feel about hypotheticals and hypothetical situations, don't you? However, rather than pretending I am the pope of Catholocism, I could pretend to be Pascal, or better yet, I could pretend to be 2PhiloVoid and just say that the point of this OP thread is for me to defend why I think Pascal's viewpoint isn't in any way "dishonest"; and that I'm not dishonest despite his influence upon me because where I disagree with Pascal on a few things, like Young Earth Creationism or Original Sin, I can still read him at any beginning point in both existential and even Hegelian form (i.e. starting at any point) and accumulate what I think of his writings are useful or true, discarding the rest.

Moreover, I only believe in the practicality of bi-lateral discussion, not of unilateral scrutiny, and whatever sauce is used on me, I'm going to apply the same sauce in return on my interlocutors (despite their contestations).
 
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cloudyday2

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Cloudy, Cloudy, Cloudy! What am I going to do with you, my friend? You know how I feel about hypotheticals and hypothetical situations, don't you? However, rather than pretending I am the pope of Catholocism, I could pretend to be Pascal, or better yet, I could pretend to be 2PhiloVoid and just say that the point of this OP thread is for me to defend why I think Pascal's viewpoint isn't in any way "dishonest"; and that I'm not dishonest despite his influence upon me because where I disagree with Pascal on a few things, like Young Earth Creationism or Original Sin, I can still read him at any beginning point in both existential and even Hegelian form (i.e. starting at any point) and accumulate what I think of his writings are useful or true, discarding the rest.

Moreover, I only believe in the practicality of bi-lateral discussion, not of unilateral scrutiny, and whatever sauce is used on me, I'm going to apply the same sauce in return on my interlocutors (despite their contestations).
O.k. then I guess we can pretend that I am the pope.

Many Christians say that John 3:16 is the essence of Christianity, but as Pope Cloudyday II, I prefer the following two verses:
John 16:17 RSV 'for the Father himself loves you, because you have loved me and have believed that I came from the Father.'
John 16:33 RSV 'I have said this to you, that in me you may have peace. In the world you have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world.”'
Bible Gateway passage: John 16 - Revised Standard Version

So in my version of Christianity, the purpose of Jesus is to encourage people to love the Father by making the personality of the Father more tangible. And the purpose of Christians is persevere in their love of the Father knowing that Jesus has overcome our adversary (the world).

So a Christian must believe that Jesus came from the Father and represented the Father through his teachings and ministry in the 1st century. A Christian must also love the teachings and ministry of Jesus, and that love is evidence of love for the Father.
 
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BigV

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- Maybe a person must follow the teachings of Jesus, and belief/faith is only important as a precondition for righteous living?

I have learned the magic word, "context". This is a favorite word for Christians because it totally changes Jesus' teaching.

I kid you not. Take for instance Jesus' teaching on money.
Luke 12:33 Sell your possessions and give to the poor. Provide purses for yourselves that will not wear out, a treasure in heaven that will never fail, where no thief comes near and no moth destroys.

Luke 14:33 In the same way, those of you who do not give up everything you have cannot be my disciples.

You know what those verse mean in the "context"? That you can keep all your money! You don't have to sell your possessions and give to the poor. You don't need to give up ANYTHING at all.

Following Jesus, using his teachings in the "context" is very easy. I bet you and are I already doing that.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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O.k. then I guess we can pretend that I am the pope.

Many Christians say that John 3:16 is the essence of Christianity, but as Pope Cloudyday II, I prefer the following two verses:
John 16:17 RSV 'for the Father himself loves you, because you have loved me and have believed that I came from the Father.'
John 16:33 RSV 'I have said this to you, that in me you may have peace. In the world you have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world.”'
Bible Gateway passage: John 16 - Revised Standard Version

So in my version of Christianity, the purpose of Jesus is to encourage people to love the Father by making the personality of the Father more tangible. And the purpose of Christians is persevere in their love of the Father knowing that Jesus has overcome our adversary (the world).
Ok. And what shall we do with this in relation to the OP? (...which would be my first of a batter of questions.) ;)
 
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cloudyday2

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Ok. And what shall we do with this in relation to the OP? (...which would be my first of a batter of questions.) ;)
Well hopefully I have distilled Christian theology to a minimal form that would be agreeable to any Christian. If we can invalidate this theology, then we might also invalidate every Christian theology.
 
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fwGod

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Well, the other verses are not nullifying John 14:12, do they? So, assuming you are a believer, what was the last miracle you performed?
The question shows a misunderstanding.

What Jesus said in John 14:12 does not mean that miracles are from the believer themselves by having achieved some miraculous power of their own. We are not all like Thor or Superman.

The Bible has these examples of miraculous power, but not of miraculously empowered people.

God told Moses to stretch the rod out, it was God who parted the red sea.

At the wedding at Cana Jesus told the servants to fill up the vessels with water. They did what he said do. Then Jesus did the miracle by turning the water into wine.

When Peter spoke to a crippled man "Silver and gold have I none, but such as I have I give to you.. In the name of Jesus rise and walk."

All Peter did was speak the words in Jesus name. Peter didn't himself have any power to heal the man. Peter said as much when he told the people. Giving all the glory to Jesus and not claiming any from himself.

Jesus Himself said, "By myself I can do nothing." "It's the Father within me that does the works."

God is the power. In the beginning the words of creation were spoken, starting with "let there be light".. it was the Holy Spirit that caused the words to come to pass.
 
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Redac

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I have learned the magic word, "context". This is a favorite word for Christians because it totally changes Jesus' teaching.

I kid you not. Take for instance Jesus' teaching on money.
Luke 12:33 Sell your possessions and give to the poor. Provide purses for yourselves that will not wear out, a treasure in heaven that will never fail, where no thief comes near and no moth destroys.

Luke 14:33 In the same way, those of you who do not give up everything you have cannot be my disciples.

You know what those verse mean in the "context"? That you can keep all your money! You don't have to sell your possessions and give to the poor. You don't need to give up ANYTHING at all.

Following Jesus, using his teachings in the "context" is very easy. I bet you and are I already doing that.
Uh huh. So out of curiosity, are you the sort of person who would look at Luke 14:26 and take that to mean that Jesus literally wants us to hate our families and ourselves?
 
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Redac

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Well, sure, except Jesus said... WHOEVER believes. He did not say ... 'those of you who believe'.
In that translation, sure, it's a bit ambiguous. It's helpful to remember, however, that the NT was written in Greek, not English, and I have seen it put forward that the Greek suggests that Jesus was indeed addressing this to his disciples specifically.

I'm not a scholar of the Greek language and I can't confirm or deny that myself, but it's certainly a possibility that you didn't seem to consider in approaching the text.

And another comeback would be that in the great comission, Jesus says to his disciples:

Matthew 28: 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”
As you yourself quoted from a Biblical commentary, there's a good amount of exegesis that suggests John 14:12 refers to the widespread success of the great commission itself.

Besides, the bolded part of this verse is pretty well understood to refer primarily to the moral law and commandments preached by Christ.

It's amazing the energy Christians are willing to spend on saving Jesus from his promises. It's every angle (Jesus didn't mean miracles, Jesus meant miracles but not for anyone other than the disciples, Jesus had attached conditions that are not specified in the Gospels, etc...)

And then, when you are done with John 14 and come to John 3:16 and realize that now the same excuses have to fly there too. Perhaps there is no more salvation for you? All of the promises to save people from Hell only applied to the 1st Century Jews? Oh, but that would be too inconvenient, wouldn't it?
Your context denial and refusal to accept anything other than hyper-literalism isn't nearly as much a problem as you think it is.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Well hopefully I have distilled Christian theology to a minimal form that would be agreeable to any Christian. If we can invalidate this theology, then we might also invalidate every Christian theology.
Distilled? What? I'm not even sure where you're going with this, Cloudy. The project in this thread is to "throw ol' 2PhiloVoid under the bus......along with his friend, Pascal."

The real question is, can you do this? I'm not sure that whatever it is you're doing thus far will accomplish this, let alone tear down Christianity.
 
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