Ancestral vs. Original Sin - and Mary

Markie Boy · Oct 13, 2019

All4Christ said:
Something that took me time to understand is the concept of sin as a whole. Remember that it isn’t “just” personal sin. We all, even infants, have missed the mark of the original intent of God. Like we mentioned earlier, even the Theotokos was impacted by ancestral sin. Note that this interpretation still doesn’t match the understanding of the non-personal guilt of the original sin in the Western church). Both any personal sins and the curse of ancestral sins need to be washed away. Sin isn’t just the western understanding of sin (at least what I learned about in my old church). It is all of what no longer matches that perfect design of God. It is everything that “misses the mark”. Jesus even saves the “cosmos”, the world, from the corruption of sin. Does that make sense?

I'll keep working on it. Getting out of the Western way of thinking is sort of like learning algebra for the first time.

Thank you.

All4Christ · Oct 13, 2019

Markie Boy said:
I'll keep working on it. Getting out of the Western way of thinking is sort of like learning algebra for the first time.

Thank you.

I’m still learning

12 years later! It takes time.

ArmyMatt · Oct 13, 2019

All4Christ said:
I’m still learning 12 years later! It takes time.

same here!

HardHead · Oct 13, 2019

Markie Boy said:
in favor of their tradition.

This is basically the definition of 'traditional' is it not?

~Anastasia~ · Oct 14, 2019

HardHead said:
This is basically the definition of 'traditional' is it not?

It can mean different things. If someone tried to understand every instance of using the words Tradition/traditional with a single deginition, they will misunderstand in many cases.

HardHead · Oct 14, 2019

ArmyMatt said:
we are not implicated in Adam's sin.

Agreed.

Its a change of state we incurred (as did all of creation to my understanding). We are derivative of a creation that has been corrupted; however, we are not guilty of something we did not do. We exist as we do as a consequence of Adam's sin (as does everything in the cosmos) not due to personal guilt or transgression but because of 'how things are'.

This article is interesting and seems to be on topic ...
Ancestral Versus Original Sin: An Overview with Implications for Psychotherapy | St. Mary Orthodox Church in Central Square, Cambridge

Barney2.0 · Oct 15, 2019

ArmyMatt said:
we are not implicated in Adam's sin.

plus, Rome has a history of changing their catechism, so I am pretty sure this definition has changed.

and this is something else we have already discussed with you.

If they’re not longer in heresy then isn’t that a good thing?

All4Christ · Oct 15, 2019

Al Masihi said:
If they’re not longer in heresy then isn’t that a good thing?

Just because some of it changed doesn’t mean all of it is correct or that it agrees with our viewpoint. Also, the CCC also is not the only thing upheld by the Catholic Church. Her saints teach much about original sin that we disagree with as well. From what I understand, there is a 3 legged stool of teaching - magisterium, scripture and apostolic tradition. Holy Tradition also is included. The CCC does not cover everything.

FenderTL5 · Oct 15, 2019

~Anastasia~ said:
It can mean different things. If someone tried to understand every instance of using the words Tradition/traditional with a single deginition, they will misunderstand in many cases.

Agree.
When I know, for certain, that I'm referencing small "t" tradition(s), I will often try to use the word custom(s) instead.
For example, in our parish there is a custom of not using the center aisle for entry/egress. It is reserved for approaching the alter/Sacraments. So when someone enters our parish using the center aisle, they unwittingly identify themselves as a guest/visitor.

BNR32FAN · Oct 15, 2019

ArmyMatt said:
Mary did suffer from the ancestral sin. yes, she remained free of personal sins according to St Gregory Palamas.

when infants are baptized, they put on Christ which frees them from being enslaved to sin and death. so that whenever they die, their death is a passage to life.

Blessing brother Matt, surely that is not guaranteed tho, am I correct? For example most Italian mob members are baptized at birth and yet if they do not repent of their sinful way of life they will not receive eternal life. Would you agree?

ArmyMatt · Oct 15, 2019

Al Masihi said:
If they’re not longer in heresy then isn’t that a good thing?

I never said they weren't in heresy. plus, they never repented of their earlier heresy.

we have been through this before as well.

ArmyMatt · Oct 15, 2019

BNR32FAN said:
Blessing brother Matt, surely that is not guaranteed tho, am I correct? For example most Italian mob members are baptized at birth and yet if they do not repent of their sinful way of life they will not receive eternal life. Would you agree?

correct

FenderTL5 · Oct 15, 2019

In the west, it is generally taught that all of mankind is guilty of Adams' sin.

Orthodoxwiki on Original Sin
- In the Book of Genesis, Chapter 3, Adam and Eve committed a sin, the original sin. The Eastern Orthodox Church teaches that no one is guilty for the actual sin they committed but rather everyone inherits the consequences of this act; the foremost of this is physical death in this world. This is the reason why the original fathers of the Church over the centuries have preferred the term ancestral sin.-

~Anastasia~ · Oct 15, 2019

FenderTL5 said:
Agree.
When I know, for certain, that I'm referencing small "t" tradition(s), I will often try to use the word custom(s) instead.
For example, in our parish there is a custom of not using the center aisle for entry/egress. It is reserved for approaching the alter/Sacraments. So when someone enters our parish using the center aisle, they unwittingly identify themselves as a guest/visitor.

True. (About the identifying themselves as a visitor.)

It's funny, we just had the Greek festival and I'm usually in the Church talking to visitors. I have to be "everywhere" so I often must walk up and down the center aisle (to get there quickly and so I'm not having to make people feel they are in my way by constantly squeezing past them around the outside) ... but even if I walk up the aisle a hundred times over the three days, it never feels right.

I didn't think about it, but I guess that's why I use the term "pious custom" pretty often when explaining.

All4Christ · Oct 15, 2019

~Anastasia~ said:
True. (About the identifying themselves as a visitor.)

It's funny, we just had the Greek festival and I'm usually in the Church talking to visitors. I have to be "everywhere" so I often must walk up and down the center aisle (to get there quickly and so I'm not having to make people feel they are in my way by constantly squeezing past them around the outside) ... but even if I walk up the aisle a hundred times over the three days, it never feels right.

I didn't think about it, but I guess that's why I use the term "pious custom" pretty often when explaining.

Considering we don’t have aisles, this never comes up

we just have a small group of chairs on both sides with a wide empty space in the middle. You pretty much have to go through the middle of the Church to get to any place, though we normally process to venerate the icons and then go to wherever we will be for the Liturgy.

I’m curious if it is similar for other churches, or if the middle aisle is primarily with Greek churches - or maybe churches with seating of chairs in rows and / or pews?

That said, there normally is a large space empty from the altar through the middle - kind of a circle of space, where people don’t typically go except to venerate icons, light candles or get in line for the Eucharist. Of course, clergy, etc. occupy that space frequently.

Barney2.0 · Oct 16, 2019

ArmyMatt said:
I never said they weren't in heresy. plus, they never repented of their earlier heresy.

we have been through this before as well.

Also if they changed their teachings which were wrong in your view, then isn’t that a good thing. Also what’s the issue with the current Latin doctrine on inherited sin on their Catechism?

ArmyMatt · Oct 16, 2019

Al Masihi said:
Also if they changed their teachings which were wrong in your view, then isn’t that a good thing. Also what’s the issue with the current Latin doctrine on inherited sin on their Catechism?

because you have to deny and condemn the earlier heresy so it doesn't come back.

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