The Case for Alcohol Based on Romans 14

Daniel Marsh · Oct 11, 2019

skimmed to here

Christ is Lord · Oct 11, 2019

ChristianForCats said:
You can't stumble on grape juice, so Paul must have been referring to the alcohol in wine.

I agree that it’s still alcoholic wine. However, I think our actions can cause someone to stumble on things we might never consider. We’re not saying we caused them to sin (just to make that clear)

CaptainToad · Oct 12, 2019

There is indeed debate wether a christian is allowed to drink alcohol.

We have verses in the bible against it and verses that depict negative consequences. But we don't have verses that forbid it. If God wanted us to abstain He would have explicitly to us and the Israelites in the OT.

And yet:

Deuteronomy 14:26 Then you may spend the money on anything you desire: cattle, sheep, wine, strong drink, or anything you wish. You are to feast there in the presence of the LORD your God and rejoice with your household.

GingerBeer · Oct 12, 2019

CaptainToad said:
There is indeed debate wether a christian is allowed to drink alcohol.

It's not so much a debate as a case where some insist that drinking alcohol is a sin. One doesn't debate about what is and what is not a sin. Drinking alcohol is not a sin. Jesus drink it. He knew no sin. Therefore drinking wine that contains alcohol is not a sin.

Anthony2019 · Oct 12, 2019

I have had to do first aid on people who have drank to excess and collapsed unconscious. I have also worked shifts in emergency (A&E) departments where people have come round after being paralytically drunk and have witnessed and experienced first hand the verbal abuse towards staff. I always shake my head when people tell me they are controlling their alcohol consumption. If they get to the stage where they have to "control" it then it is already out of control. I have nothing against people enjoying alcohol and using it responsibly but I don't think some people understand the enormous risk to their health and safety, and that of others, through their excessive drinking.

GingerBeer · Oct 12, 2019

Anthony2019 said:
I have had to do first aid on people who have drank to excess and collapsed unconscious. I have also worked shifts in emergency (A&E) departments where people have come round after being paralytically drunk and have witnessed and experienced first hand the verbal abuse towards staff. I always shake my head when people tell me they are controlling their alcohol consumption. If they get to the stage where they have to "control" it then it is already out of control. I have nothing against people enjoying alcohol and using it responsibly but I don't think some people understand the enormous risk to their health and safety, and that of others, through their excessive drinking.

I imagine that people do understand the risks of excessive drinking and especially habitual frequent excessive drinking. They simply do not care when they are alcoholics, or they care but not enough to stop. But such excess is not what the thread is about is it?
The thread is about taking alcohol in any way and the thread suggests that taking alcohol responsibly, or in communion, or in sufficient quantity to - occasionally - become merry is not a sin.

Anthony2019 · Oct 12, 2019

GingerBeer said:
I imagine that people do understand the risks of excessive drinking and especially habitual frequent excessive drinking. They simply do not care when they are alcoholics, or they care but not enough to stop. But such excess is not what the thread is about is it?
The thread is about taking alcohol in any way and the thread suggests that taking alcohol responsibly, or in communion, or in sufficient quantity to - occasionally - become merry is not a sin.

The question in the original post was asking whether it was OK to drink alcohol. My answer is that it is not a sin to drink alcohol, as long as it is not in excess. And I have illustrated why I consider excessive drinking to be a sin.

GingerBeer · Oct 12, 2019

Anthony2019 said:
The question in the original post was asking whether it was OK to drink alcohol. My answer is that it is not a sin to drink alcohol, as long as it is not in excess. And I have illustrated why I consider excessive drinking to be a sin.

I agree that it is not a sin, it cannot be since Jesus drank alcohol and Jesus knew no sin.

CaptainToad · Oct 12, 2019

GingerBeer said:
It's not so much a debate as a case where some insist that drinking alcohol is a sin. One doesn't debate about what is and what is not a sin. Drinking alcohol is not a sin. Jesus drink it. He knew no sin. Therefore drinking wine that contains alcohol is not a sin.

Well, people debate about it.

GingerBeer · Oct 12, 2019

CaptainToad said:
Well, people debate about it.

Yes, but people debate if black is white too. There's no limits on what people will debate but that does not mean that what they debate is in fact debatable. All it means is that some people are just fundamentally contrary. They will fight about things that cannot be debated.

CaptainToad · Oct 12, 2019

GingerBeer said:
Yes, but people debate is black is white too. There's no limits on what people will debate but that does not mean that what they debate is in fact debatable. All it means is that some people are just fundamentally contrary. They will fight about things that cannot be debated.

I agree with you. They will go to great lengths to prove their point. Some claim wine in the bible is grape juice.

GingerBeer · Oct 12, 2019

CaptainToad said:
I agree with you. They will go to great lengths to prove their point. Some claim wine in the bible is grape juice.

Well, all wine starts as grape juice it just doesn't stay that way without introducing preservatives that inhibit yeasts from fermenting it.

CaptainToad · Oct 12, 2019

GingerBeer said:
Well, all wine starts as grape juice it just doesn't stay that way without introducing preservatives that inhibit yeasts from fermenting it.

You know what I meant

Dale · Oct 12, 2019

It is true that the Bible refers to drinking beer and wine.

However, distilled liquor wasn't invented until the 11th century AD. It was invented by the Arabs in north Africa and spread to Europe in the next couple of hundred years, by the 13th century.

The Bible mentions wine but it does not address distilled liquor or fortified wine. The stronger the drink, the greater the chances that people will get drunk when drinking it.

Anguspure · Oct 15, 2019

Dale said:
It is true that the Bible refers to drinking beer and wine.

However, distilled liquor wasn't invented until the 11th century AD. It was invented by the Arabs in north Africa and spread to Europe in the next couple of hundred years, by the 13th century.

The Bible mentions wine but it does not address distilled liquor or fortified wine. The stronger the drink, the greater the chances that people will get drunk when drinking it.

Interestingly it was Christian monks searching for the water of life that brought the art of distillation to Western Europe and that is what they called it: uisge beatha, which means "water of life".

prodromos · Oct 15, 2019

Anguspure said:
Moderation is that intake that is beneficial and healthy. It probably differs for each individual, but generally I suppose that small amounts of something (legal) that do not have any immediate or ongoing ill effect for ourselves or others and that do not cause us alienation in our relationship with the Father (perhaps because of our faith or conscience), could be considered as moderate.
We should not forget that the deadliest substance and wildly abused by many is dihydrogen monoxide (DHMO): Facts About Dihydrogen Monoxide

Ah, that is brilliant. To think that I have been drinking fire retardant all my life.

Yahkov · Oct 15, 2019

Dale said:
It is true that the Bible refers to drinking beer and wine.

However, distilled liquor wasn't invented until the 11th century AD. It was invented by the Arabs in north Africa and spread to Europe in the next couple of hundred years, by the 13th century.

The Bible mentions wine but it does not address distilled liquor or fortified wine. The stronger the drink, the greater the chances that people will get drunk when drinking it.

This.

When you are taking shots or mixing with your coke some Jack Daniels, you should probably reconsider what you are doing. Most alcoholic beverages today are clearly designed to get you drunk. Significant difference between wine and hard liquor.

GodLovesCats · Oct 18, 2019

CaptainToad said:
I agree with you. They will go to great lengths to prove their point. Some claim wine in the Bible is grape juice.

People think wine is just old grape juice that naturally occured because refrigerators did not exist yet. But if making wine was that simple, there would be no need for wineries. Heck, there is a church chain called the Vineyard Association. I can't imagine they would choose that name if there was no need for vineyards.

Where does the Bible mention beer specifically?

Anguspure · Oct 19, 2019

prodromos said:
Ah, that is brilliant. To think that I have been drinking fire retardant all my life.

What is more funny s that it was taken so seriously: Dihydrogen monoxide parody - Wikipedia

The Case for Alcohol Based on Romans 14

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