2 "Parousias" according to Partial Preterism......

LittleLambofJesus said:

Nope. But I do like to discuss the various views of Preterism.

A favorite Preterist site for, well, Preterists of course:

The Preterist Archive of Realized Eschatology
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I do hop over to this board once in awhile..........I found a term called "hyper preterism" and made a discussion thread on it over on the CCT board.

Controversial Christian Theology

Partial Preterism, Full Preterism vs Hyper Preterism

"I think we need to distinguish between full preterism and hyper-preterism.
Full preterism is an optimistic eschatology.
Don’t think I can say the same thing about hyper-preterism, which has led some right out of Christianity"

Todd Dennis … the implications of a Full Preterist hermeneutic certainly don’t lead to Universalism or Dispensationalism. However, Full Preterism doesn’t work (from an exegetical standpoint) unless the fulfillment pertained only to the ancient Israelites.


By-gone, old Full Preterist “celebrities” like Max King, Don Preston, Ed Stevens, et al, wouldn’t last 20 minutes in a dialogue or debate with those of us who have a much more comprehensive understanding of the implications of Full Preterism.


The only thing Full Preterism and Dispensationalism have in common is that Don Preston is about as trustworthy as Hal Lindsey. Preston’s “Covenant Eschatology” is as silly as “The Emporer’s New Clothes” and Hal Lindsey’s “Late Great Planet Earth” ran out of dates.
February 25, 2015 at 4:06pm

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Dispensational Futurism is the ditch on one side of the road of Bible prophecy, and 70AD/Full-Preterism is the ditch on the opposite side of the road.

The truth lies somewhere in the middle.

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ewq1938 said:

This phrase is a figure of speech that simply means no one has fully understood or known God except Jesus and that's because Jesus is God's son. Clarke: It is likely that the word seen, here, is put for known, as in Joh_3:32; 1Jo_3:2, 1Jo_3:6, and 3Jo_1:11; and this sense the latter clause of the verse seems to require: - No man, how highly soever favored, hath fully known God, at any time, in any nation or age; the only begotten Son. Many people have seen God:

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Do you have any commentaries to support your view? The Bible says that no one can see God and live. But you say many people have seen God.

ewq1938 said:

There is no such thing as a first and second "appearance" to believers only and another set of first and second comings to the world at large.

His first appearance/coming was his birth. His resurrection was not his first appearance to anyone.

His second coming will be seen by all and that is when the resurrection and rapture take place.

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Yes there is. "without sin unto salvation" - do you know what that means?

Hebrews 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Jesus first appearing to the disciples after the resurrection -

19 Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.

20 And when he had so said, he shewed unto them his hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the Lord.

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Jesus's first coming was his birth into this world and his life up unto his death on the cross.

John 5:43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.

Andrewn said:

The Bible says that no one can see God and live.

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Exo 33:20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.
Exo 33:21 And the LORD said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock:
Exo 33:22 And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by:
Exo 33:23 And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.

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ewq1938 said:

No, the verse speaks of his actual second coming which will end up at Armageddon as seen in Rev 19.

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Hebrews 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

No, it is not talking about his second coming at Armageddon, in Revelation 19. "without sin unto salvation" has nothing to do with Armageddon.

It is talking about a special appearance only to them who are looking for him for the rapture/resurrection.

"without sin unto salvation" is talking about the change to believers go through in rapture/resurrection when they no longer are in their natural bodies, which sin takes a toll. The new bodies are without sin, and are the heavenly incorruptible bodies.

It will be salvation from the second death.

The verse starts out with a past event then goes into a future event. Christ's resurrection was a past event so we know the writer is not speaking of his resurrection

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The first part of the verse is a past event, agreed, "So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many;" but it is the basis which people are saved past, present, and future.

The second part is specific to the rapture/resurrection and is written in future tense.

and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

It is not talking about judgment on the wicked like at Armageddon.

ewq1938 said:

Which also includes his resurrection and the time spent until the ascension.

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When Jesus dismissed his spirit on the cross and died, he never appeared again to the world at large. Only to the believers.

ewq1938 said:

Of course not but it does have to do with other parts of the over all second coming. He comes without sin and does give immortality to the dead in Christ and living in Christ at the second coming which is salvation received defacto. He did not do that after resurrecting. Bearing the sins of many in the verse means he was offering a way to salvation and when he returns, Christians will receive it.

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The purpose of the second coming is not to bring salvation, but to setup the kingdom of God as the reigning kingdom here on earth. Daniel 2:44. Daniel 7:27.

It was at Jesus's first coming that he brought the way of salvation.

Zechariah 9:9 Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.

You have not demonstrated any link to all the things the verse speaks of and when he resurrected. You have also not shown that there is a coming before the second coming where the rapture happens. There is no such thing as a third coming.

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There is no such thing as a third coming, agreed. And I have not claimed it. Jesus will come with his armies of heaven, in Revelation 19, at his second coming to the world at large.

Jesus appeared to the disciples after his resurrection and five hundred others. 1Corinthians 15:6. Mark 16:9-11. John 20:11-18. Matthew 28:9-10. Luke 24:34. Luke 24:13-32. Luke 24:36-43. John 20:26-29. John 21:1-25. Matthew 28:16-20. Mark 16:15-18. 1Corinthians 15:7. Acts 1:3-8. Luke 24:44-49.

The epistles of which we read are written by them who experienced the post resurrection appearance of Jesus personally, which if you and I were in their shoes, at the time the epistles were written, it would be more meaningful as being "a first appearance" according to their experience.

So when they speak of Jesus appearing a second time, it is because of their personal experience of him having appeared to them directly, comparing what to them was the first time.

So second appearance in Hebrews 9:18 is in that context. It is not talking about his second coming, but the rapture/resurrection that the disciples had based their hope and prayers.

1Thessalonians4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

1Thessalonians 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

It is special but it is part of the entire second coming events not something happening years before the second coming.

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The rapture/resurrection could happen in the next second. I don't know when. But it has to take place before the beginning of the Day of the Lord. Which, as a minimum, would be roughly over 3 1/2 years before the second coming.

Yes it is. You are only wrong on when this happens. There is a first coming and a second coming. There is no such thing as a 1.5 coming, nor a third coming which this is really suggesting.

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No-one is claiming a 1.5 coming, nor third coming. There was Jesus's first coming. And there will be Jesus's second coming. To the world at large.

Differently, the second appearing is only to believers who are looking for him. Only believers will be taken up in the rapture/resurrection. The world at large is not going to see Jesus when that happens. They are going to see the disappearance of them taken in the rapture.

There is a distinction between Jesus appearing to believers only and Jesus's coming to the world at large.







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ewq1938 said:

Second, it isn't relevant. His first coming is the entire time he or his body was on the Earth. It only ended when he went back to heaven. His resurrection is not a second coming whether he only visited his disciples or not. That's very flawed logic.

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Where do you think Jesus was the three days his body was in the tomb?

Jesus's resurrection is not a second coming, agreed. And no one is saying that.

Douggg said:

1Thessalonians4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

1Thessalonians 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

The rapture/resurrection could happen in the next second. I don't know when. But it has to take place before the beginning of the Day of the Lord. Which, as a minimum, would be roughly over 3 1/2 years before the second coming.

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There is no removal of the Church before the Second Coming of Christ.




Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:22-24, modern Dispensational Theology falls apart, and the pretrib removal of the Church falls with it.


2Ti 4:1 I charge you therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead at His appearing and His kingdom:

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BABerean2 said:

There is no removal of the Church before the Second Coming of Christ.

Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:22-24, modern Dispensational Theology falls apart, and the pretrib removal of the Church falls with it.

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You are mixing two different things. (1) There will be the rapture/resurrection before the second coming. (2) but it may or may not be before the 70th week begins.

The rapture/resurrection is for them looking for Jesus appearing the second time, to believers.

This article by Hank Hanegraaff, I believe, does a great job at clearing up the confusion of the word "coming" used in Scripture:

mkgal1 said:

He said “I say to all of you, in the future you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.” The generation that crucified Christ would see the very day that he was exalted and enthroned at the right hand of the Mighty One.

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All man-made Bible doctrines are revealed not by the scripture quoted by its proponents, but rather by the scripture they must ignore to make it work.


Mat 12:42 The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.


2Ti 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;


Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

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BABerean2 said:

All man-made Bible doctrines are revealed not by the scripture quoted by its proponents, but rather by the scripture they must ignore to make it work.

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Hank Hanegraaff is a member of the Eastern Orthodox Church - otherwise known as the New Testament church. Instead of using - what seems like - a robotic auto response to posts, it would be more helpful (IMO) for you to address things specifically that you're disagreeing with instead of disparaging them.

BTW - the part you quoted was mostly all straight from Scripture (a quote directly from Jesus, even) - so it's hardly "man-made doctrine".

BABerean2 said:

Mat 12:42 The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.


2Ti 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;


Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

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I should type up my own auto response to this - you use it so often - but my line of thought has been that maybe if I keep rewording my response, at some point, it will maybe eventually make sense to you.

I believe this passage is saying that, basically, the Queen of Sheba and the men of Nineveh were from a whole other culture (they weren't Jewish.....they didn't grow up learning Hebrew Scriptures) but they believed that God is the One and only Lord of Lords - the One True God.

Their testimony of belief - held up against the Jewish UNbelievers of Jesus' day - that lived their lives alongside Him and STILL didn't believe - was what condemned them (and maybe "put them to shame" is a better phrase?). In other words - it was a matter of who was right/who was wrong (who had greater faith because of their background of being non Jews from another culture).

It's not a literal passage. "Rise up" doesn't mean literally dead people coming from the ground. It's their historical testimony that "rose up". And "time of the dead" in Revelation 11 doesn't mean His final return (I don't believe).

mkgal1 said:

I should type up my own auto response to this - you use it so often - but my line of thought has been that maybe if I keep rewording my response, at some point, it will maybe eventually make sense to you.

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From the Statement of Faith for this Forum.

Statement of Faith
The Nicene Creed
We believe in (Romans 10:8-10; 1John 4:15)
ONE God, (Deuteronomy 6:4, Ephesians 4:6)
the Father (Matthew 6:9)
Almighty, (Exodus 6:3)
Maker of Heaven and Earth, (Genesis 1:1)
and of all things visible and invisible. (Colossians 1:15-16)
And in ONE Lord Jesus Christ, (Acts 11:17)
the Son of God, (Mathew 14:33; 16:16)
the Only-Begotten, (John 1:18; 3:16)
Begotten of the Father before all ages. (John 1:2)
Light of Light; (Psalm 27:1; John 8:12; Matthew 17:2,5)
True God of True God; (John 17:1-5)
Begotten, not made; (John 1:18)
of one essence with the Father (John 10:30)
by whom all things were made; (Hebrews 1:1-2)
Who for us men and for our salvation (1Timothy 2:4-5)
came down from Heaven, (John 6:33,35)
and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary, (Luke 1:35)
and became man. (John 1:14)
And was crucified for us (Mark 15:25; 1Cointhians 15:3)
under Pontius Pilate, (John 19:6)
and suffered, (Mark 8:31)
and was buried. (Luke 23:53; 1Corinthians 15:4)
And the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures. (Luke 24:1 1Corinthians 15:4)
And ascended into Heaven, (Luke 24:51; Acts 1:10)
and sits at the right hand of the Father. (Mark 16:19; Acts 7:55)
And He shall come again with glory (Matthew 24:27)
to judge the living and the dead; (Acts 10:42; 2Timothy 4:1)
whose Kingdom shall have no end. (2 Peter 1:11)
And in the Holy Spirit, (John 14:26)
the Lord, (Acts 5:3-4)
the Giver of Life, (Genesis 1:2)
Who proceeds from the Father; (John 15:26)
Who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; (Matthew 3:16-17)
Who spoke through the prophets. (1 Samuel 19:20 ; Ezekiel 11:5,13) In one, (Matthew 16: 18)
holy, (1 Peter 2:5,9)
catholic*, (Mark 16:15)
and apostolic Church. (Acts 2:42; Ephesians 2:19-22)
I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins**. (Ephesians 4:5; Acts 2:38)
I look for the resurrection of the dead, (John 11:24; 1Corinthians 15:12-49; Hebrews 6:2; Revelation 20:5)
and the life of the world to come. (Mark 10:29-30)
AMEN. (Psalm 106:48)


What you should do is either agree with what is found above, or stop posting on this forum.
If it does not make sense based on the above, you are outside of what is written in scripture.
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