two covenants

ralliann · Sep 9, 2019

I am wondering how covenant theology views the two covenants made with Abraham?
God makes one covenant with Abraham in Genesis 15. Then later he makes another covenant with Abraham in Genesis 17.
The first speaks concerning the fourth generation of his seed, the second speaks concerning Isaac the first generation of his seed.
Are their various views on this in covenantalism?

Gup20 · Sep 16, 2019

I don't know how covenant theology interpret this, but here are my thoughts. These covenants are one in the same - just different aspects or promises within the same covenant.

[Gal 3:6-18 NASB] 6 Even so Abraham BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS ((Covenant from Genesis 15)). 7 Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham ((covenant from chapter 17)). 8 The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, [saying,] "ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU." ((Covenant from chapter 12)) 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer. -- 14 in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. 15 Brethren, I speak in terms of human relations: even though it is [only] a man's covenant, yet when it has been ratified ((covenant from chapter 15)), no one sets it aside or adds conditions to it. 16 Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed ((covenant Gen 9:9, 12:7, 13:16, 15:5,18, 17:7-10,12,19 etc etc) . He does not say, "And to seeds," as [referring] to many, but [rather] to one, "And to your seed," that is, Christ. 17 What I am saying is this: the Law, which came four hundred and thirty years later, does not invalidate a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to nullify the promise. 18 For if the inheritance is based on law, it is no longer based on a promise; but God has granted it to Abraham by means of a promise.

A promise (another word for promise is covenant)-- the whole covenant from these multiple chapters is one big promise.

[Rom 4:8-13 NASB] 8 "BLESSED IS THE MAN WHOSE SIN THE LORD WILL NOT TAKE INTO ACCOUNT." 9 Is this blessing then on the circumcised, or on the uncircumcised also? For we say, "FAITH WAS CREDITED TO ABRAHAM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS." 10 How then was it credited? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised; 11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them, 12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which he had while uncircumcised. 13 For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith.

[Gen 17:4-7 NASB] 4 "As for Me, behold, My covenant is with you, And you will be the father of a multitude of nations. 5 "No longer shall your name be called Abram, But your name shall be Abraham; For I have made you the father of a multitude of nations. 6 "I will make you exceedingly fruitful, and I will make nations of you, and kings will come forth from you. 7 "I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants (seed, singular) after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your descendants (seed, singular) after you.

Abraham was made righteous for his faith in the gospel of Jesus Christ. He is the "father of all who believe." He is the "father of many nations." (not just the nation of Israel) He believed God when God told him about Jesus Christ in Genesis 15:5-6, and for this faith in the gospel (Gal 3:8) he was made righteous. God says he will be the "father of many nations" and then immediately promises that the covenant will be established by those offspring from the many nations (not just the one nation of Israel).

This is the same covenant of Genesis 12, 15, 17. It is the covenant of faith.

[Gal 4:22-31 NASB] 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the bondwoman and one by the free woman. 23 But the son by the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and the son by the free woman through the promise. 24 This is allegorically speaking, for these [women] are two covenants: one [proceeding] from Mount Sinai bearing children who are to be slaves; she is Hagar. 25 Now this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. 26 But the Jerusalem above is free; she is our mother. 27 For it is written, "REJOICE, BARREN WOMAN WHO DOES NOT BEAR; BREAK FORTH AND SHOUT, YOU WHO ARE NOT IN LABOR; FOR MORE NUMEROUS ARE THE CHILDREN OF THE DESOLATE THAN OF THE ONE WHO HAS A HUSBAND." 28 And you brethren, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29 But as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him [who was born] according to the Spirit, so it is now also. 30 But what does the Scripture say? "CAST OUT THE BONDWOMAN AND HER SON, FOR THE SON OF THE BONDWOMAN SHALL NOT BE AN HEIR WITH THE SON OF THE FREE WOMAN." 31 So then, brethren, we are not children of a bondwoman, but of the free woman.

[Isa 54:1 NASB] 1 "Shout for joy, O barren one, you who have borne no [child;] Break forth into joyful shouting and cry aloud, you who have not travailed; For the sons of the desolate one [will be] more numerous Than the sons of the married woman," says the LORD.

The children born from the desolate woman (the adopted children of the woman who didn't give birth to physical heirs) will be more numerous than the physical descendants of the promise of the covenant of faith.

The covenant of faith -- salvation through faith in the gospel of Jesus Christ -- first made Abraham righteous. Abraham was the first person made righteous through his faith in the gospel of Jesus Christ. He was the first man saved by grace through faith in the gospel. All who are his spiritual descendants -- those with the same faith in the gospel of Christ that Abraham had -- are inheritors of the covenant of faith... inheritors of the righteousness given to Abraham.

With the exception of Abraham, none of us are given righteousness directly for our faith. We all obtain our righteousness by our faith qualifying us as heir's of Abraham and then INHERITING the righteousness given to Abraham. This is why God calls it an Everlasting Covenant in Genesis 17:7 - assured to all the descendants of Abraham.

ralliann · Sep 19, 2019

Gup20 said:
I don't know how covenant theology interpret this, but here are my thoughts. These covenants are one in the same - just different aspects or promises within the same covenant.

[Gal 3:6-18 NASB] 6 Even so Abraham BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS ((Covenant from Genesis 15)). 7 Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham ((covenant from chapter 17)). 8 The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, [saying,] "ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU." ((Covenant from chapter 12)) 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer. -- 14 in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. 15 Brethren, I speak in terms of human relations: even though it is [only] a man's covenant, yet when it has been ratified ((covenant from chapter 15)), no one sets it aside or adds conditions to it. 16 Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed ((covenant Gen 9:9, 12:7, 13:16, 15:5,18, 17:7-10,12,19 etc etc) . He does not say, "And to seeds," as [referring] to many, but [rather] to one, "And to your seed," that is, Christ. 17 What I am saying is this: the Law, which came four hundred and thirty years later, does not invalidate a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to nullify the promise. 18 For if the inheritance is based on law, it is no longer based on a promise; but God has granted it to Abraham by means of a promise.

A promise (another word for promise is covenant)-- the whole covenant from these multiple chapters is one big promise.

[Rom 4:8-13 NASB] 8 "BLESSED IS THE MAN WHOSE SIN THE LORD WILL NOT TAKE INTO ACCOUNT." 9 Is this blessing then on the circumcised, or on the uncircumcised also? For we say, "FAITH WAS CREDITED TO ABRAHAM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS." 10 How then was it credited? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised; 11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them, 12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which he had while uncircumcised. 13 For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith.

[Gen 17:4-7 NASB] 4 "As for Me, behold, My covenant is with you, And you will be the father of a multitude of nations. 5 "No longer shall your name be called Abram, But your name shall be Abraham; For I have made you the father of a multitude of nations. 6 "I will make you exceedingly fruitful, and I will make nations of you, and kings will come forth from you. 7 "I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants (seed, singular) after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your descendants (seed, singular) after you.

Abraham was made righteous for his faith in the gospel of Jesus Christ. He is the "father of all who believe." He is the "father of many nations." (not just the nation of Israel) He believed God when God told him about Jesus Christ in Genesis 15:5-6, and for this faith in the gospel (Gal 3:8) he was made righteous. God says he will be the "father of many nations" and then immediately promises that the covenant will be established by those offspring from the many nations (not just the one nation of Israel).

This is the same covenant of Genesis 12, 15, 17. It is the covenant of faith.

[Gal 4:22-31 NASB] 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the bondwoman and one by the free woman. 23 But the son by the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and the son by the free woman through the promise. 24 This is allegorically speaking, for these [women] are two covenants: one [proceeding] from Mount Sinai bearing children who are to be slaves; she is Hagar. 25 Now this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. 26 But the Jerusalem above is free; she is our mother. 27 For it is written, "REJOICE, BARREN WOMAN WHO DOES NOT BEAR; BREAK FORTH AND SHOUT, YOU WHO ARE NOT IN LABOR; FOR MORE NUMEROUS ARE THE CHILDREN OF THE DESOLATE THAN OF THE ONE WHO HAS A HUSBAND." 28 And you brethren, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29 But as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him [who was born] according to the Spirit, so it is now also. 30 But what does the Scripture say? "CAST OUT THE BONDWOMAN AND HER SON, FOR THE SON OF THE BONDWOMAN SHALL NOT BE AN HEIR WITH THE SON OF THE FREE WOMAN." 31 So then, brethren, we are not children of a bondwoman, but of the free woman.

[Isa 54:1 NASB] 1 "Shout for joy, O barren one, you who have borne no [child;] Break forth into joyful shouting and cry aloud, you who have not travailed; For the sons of the desolate one [will be] more numerous Than the sons of the married woman," says the LORD.

The children born from the desolate woman (the adopted children of the woman who didn't give birth to physical heirs) will be more numerous than the physical descendants of the promise of the covenant of faith.

The covenant of faith -- salvation through faith in the gospel of Jesus Christ -- first made Abraham righteous. Abraham was the first person made righteous through his faith in the gospel of Jesus Christ. He was the first man saved by grace through faith in the gospel. All who are his spiritual descendants -- those with the same faith in the gospel of Christ that Abraham had -- are inheritors of the covenant of faith... inheritors of the righteousness given to Abraham.

With the exception of Abraham, none of us are given righteousness directly for our faith. We all obtain our righteousness by our faith qualifying us as heir's of Abraham and then INHERITING the righteousness given to Abraham. This is why God calls it an Everlasting Covenant in Genesis 17:7 - assured to all the descendants of Abraham.

Thank you for your response here. I think covenant theology does see the two covenants in some form as you have presented above. But I am seeing somethings in scripture that make me question the idea of the two covenants being basically one.
The first issue I have concerns the idea That everything God said being a promise (as unconditional). What I mean is these covenants seem to be wills of inheritance (as spoken of in Hebrews). While God gave Abram heirs ( made a will of inheritance) in genesis 15 The book of Hebrews says it was (the will of inheritance) was without an oath. Not being ratified with an oath leaves the covenant subject to addition or change. Therefore the priesthood can be changed.
Also when we read of these covenants it seems quite clear the covenant made with Abraham in Genesis 17, although made later was in operation first. The inheritance given in genesis 15 did not come into force until the fourth generation. And was always based upon the promises ratified in the royal covenant (kings from Abraham as well as Sarah) of Geneis 17.
One inheritance (gen 15) a kingdom of priests according to the order of Aaron
One inheritance according to the order of Melchizedek. True Israel, the Israel of God...Seems to be heirs of both portions spoken to Abraham hence Israel is called Gods firstborn son.
Bottom line...I am wondering Concerning God making an oath as confirmation. If everything God ever said were to be considered a promise then why the need for God to ever swear an oath?

Gup20 · Sep 19, 2019

ralliann said:
Thank you for your response here. I think covenant theology does see the two covenants in some form as you have presented above. But I am seeing somethings in scripture that make me question the idea of the two covenants being basically one.
The first issue I have concerns the idea That everything God said being a promise (as unconditional). What I mean is these covenants seem to be wills of inheritance (as spoken of in Hebrews). While God gave Abram heirs ( made a will of inheritance) in genesis 15 The book of Hebrews says it was (the will of inheritance) was without an oath. Not being ratified with an oath leaves the covenant subject to addition or change.

First, quote the Hebrews passage and let’s examine it.

Second, the covenant was ratified with an oath in the latter half of Gen 15:

Genesis 15:9-10 (NASB) 9 So He said to him, "Bring Me a three year old heifer, and a three year old female goat, and a three year old ram, and a turtledove, and a young pigeon." 10 Then he brought all these to Him and cut them in two, and laid each half opposite the other; but he did not cut the birds.

Genesis 15:17-18 (NASB) 17 It came about when the sun had set, that it was very dark, and behold, there appeared a smoking oven and a flaming torch which passed between these pieces. 18 On that day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, "To your descendants I have given this land, From the river of Egypt as far as the great river, the river Euphrates:

Galatians 3:15-17 (NASB) 15 Brethren, I speak in terms of human relations: even though it is only a man's covenant, yet when it has been ratified, no one sets it aside or adds conditions to it. 16 Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, "And to seeds," as referring to many, but rather to one, "And to your seed," that is, Christ. 17 What I am saying is this: the Law, which came four hundred and thirty years later, does not invalidate a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to nullify the promise.

The ratification comes from Gen 15, and the phrase “and to thy seed” is given once in Gen 15:5, and multiple times in Gen 17

Genesis 17:7-10 (KJV) 7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee. 8 And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God. 9 And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations. 10 This [is] my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.

Deuteronomy 30:6 (KJV) And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

Romans 2:28-29 (NASB) 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

Romans 4:9-13 (NASB) 9 Is this blessing then on the circumcised, or on the uncircumcised also? For we say, "FAITH WAS CREDITED TO ABRAHAM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS." 10 How then was it credited? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised; 11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them, 12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which he had while uncircumcised. 13 For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants [seed] that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith.

Romans 4:16 (NASB) For this reason it is by faith, in order that it may be in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all,

Ephesians 1:13-14 (NASB) 13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory.

Therefore the priesthood can be changed.
Also when we read of these covenants it seems quite clear the covenant made with Abraham in Genesis 17, although made later was in operation first. The inheritance given in genesis 15 did not come into force until the fourth generation. And was always based upon the promises ratified in the royal covenant (kings from Abraham as well as Sarah) of Geneis 17.
One inheritance (gen 15) a kingdom of priests according to the order of Aaron
One inheritance according to the order of Melchizedek. True Israel, the Israel of God...Seems to be heirs of both portions spoken to Abraham hence Israel is called Gods firstborn son.
Bottom line...I am wondering Concerning God making an oath as confirmation. If everything God ever said were to be considered a promise then why the need for God to ever swear an oath?

Deuteronomy 7:6
For you are a holy peopleto the LORD your God; the LORD your God has chosen youto be a people for His own possession out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth.
7 The LORD did not set His love on you nor choose you because you were more in number than any of the peoples, for you were the fewest of all peoples,
8 but because the LORD loved you and kept the oath which He swore to your forefathers, the LORD brought you out by a mighty hand and redeemed you from the house of slavery, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.
9 Know therefore that the LORD your God, He is God, the faithful God, who keeps His covenant and His lovingkindness to a thousandth generation with those who love Him and keep His commandments;

Nehemiah 9:7
You are the LORD God, Who chose AbramAnd brought him out from Ur of the Chaldees, And gave him the name Abraham.
8 You found his heart faithful before You,And made a covenant with himTo give him the land of the Canaanite, Of the Hittite and the Amorite, Of the Perizzite, the Jebusite and the Girgashite— To give it to his descendants. And You have fulfilled Your promise, For You are righteous.

ralliann · Sep 21, 2019

Gup20 said:
First, quote the Hebrews passage and let’s examine it.

Good idea.. From reading your response I think to discuss this first would be best .
**A will of inheritance...
Heb 9:17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

**The many sons of the concubines received of Abraham while he yet lived which has no strength of a testament.
Ge 25:6 But unto the sons of the concubines, which Abraham had, Abraham gave gifts, and sent them away from Isaac his son, while he yet lived, eastward, unto the east country.

**Isaac receives what belonged to his father after he died.
Isaac as an heir after Abraham died was treated as an only son according to the strength of a testament.
5 And Abraham gave all that he had unto Isaac.

Heb 7:21 (For those priests were made without an oath; but this with an oath by him that said unto him, The Lord sware and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec

This appears to say God will not repent of an oath? So can he repent apart from one? I think so because there was a change in the priesthood that was made without the swearing of an oath..

Gup20 said:
Second, the covenant was ratified with an oath in the latter half of Gen 15:

Genesis 15:9-10 (NASB) 9 So He said to him, "Bring Me a three year old heifer, and a three year old female goat, and a three year old ram, and a turtledove, and a young pigeon." 10 Then he brought all these to Him and cut them in two, and laid each half opposite the other; but he did not cut the birds.

Genesis 15:17-18 (NASB) 17 It came about when the sun had set, that it was very dark, and behold, there appeared a smoking oven and a flaming torch which passed between these pieces. 18 On that day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, "To your descendants I have given this land, From the river of Egypt as far as the great river, the river Euphrates:

I am not seeing an oath here? A covenant yes, but not the swearing of an oath. And ratification in the seed of the fourth generation was 400 years off?
Isaac and Jacob were excluded, not being of the fourth generation.
**Abraham would sleep with his fathers
Gen 15:15 And thou shalt go to thy fathers in peace; thou shalt be buried in a good old age.

**The covenant inheritance concerns the fourth generation of his seed...
Ge 15:16 But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full.
***Third Generation dies
Ex 1:6 And Joseph died, and all his brethren, and all that generation.
***Joseph knew it was for the fourth generation....
Ge 50:25 And Joseph took an oath of the children of Israel, saying, God will surely visit you, and ye shall carry up my bones from hence.
Ex 13:19 And Moses took the bones of Joseph with him: for he had straitly sworn the children of Israel, saying, God will surely visit you; and ye shall carry up my bones away hence with you.

Gup20 said:
Galatians 3:15-17 (NASB) 15 Brethren, I speak in terms of human relations: even though it is only a man's covenant, yet when it has been ratified, no one sets it aside or adds conditions to it. 16 Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, "And to seeds," as referring to many, but rather to one, "And to your seed," that is, Christ. 17 What I am saying is this: the Law, which came four hundred and thirty years later, does not invalidate a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to nullify the promise.

Gup20 said:
The ratification comes from Gen 15, and the phrase “and to thy seed” is given once in Gen 15:5, and multiple times in Gen 17

Is one covenant speaking of the many and the other the one seed?
Here is how I think it could be understood as progession or building of Abrahams faith.
Ge 21:12 And God said unto Abraham, Let it not be grievous in thy sight because of the lad, and because of thy bondwoman; in all that Sarah hath said unto thee, hearken unto her voice; for in Isaac shall thy seed be called.
Ro 9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
Heb 11:18 Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called:

**Ratification (establishing) of the covenant is with Isaac
Ge 17:21 But my covenant will I establish with Isaac, which Sarah shall bear unto thee at this set time in the next year.
**An only son
Gen 22:15 And the angel of the LORD called unto Abraham out of heaven the second time,
16 And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son:
17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies; {shore: Heb. lip }
18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.

Gup20 · Sep 21, 2019

ralliann said:
Good idea.. From reading your response I think to discuss this first would be best .
**A will of inheritance...
Heb 9:17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

Sure, makes sense. A son cannot inherit his father's things until the father dies. This, however, was comparing the blood in the covenant of The Law to the blood in the covenant of faith specifically in relation to the covering of guilt. It is saying that the blood of goats and calves were but a shadow of the blood of The Messiah... and that the Law was temporal while the covenant of faith is eternal. The law dealing with carnal matters as a shadow of faith and Christ dealing with spiritual matters.

Heb 9:15
For this reason He is the mediator of a new covenant, so that, since a death has taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were committed under the first covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

Gen 17:7
I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your descendants after you.

Heb 7:21 (For those priests were made without an oath; but this with an oath by him that said unto him, The Lord sware and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec
This appears to say God will not repent of an oath? So can he repent apart from one? I think so because there was a change in the priesthood that was made without the swearing of an oath..

In this passage in Hebrews 7, the writer is establishing Jesus Priesthood -- that Jesus is the Mediator spoken of in Hebrews 9:15. However, Jesus was not of the lineage of Levi, but of Judah. The Order of Aaron (of Moses and Aaron) was through the Levitial priesthood. The writer of Hebrews is establishing that Jesus was a high priest, but in the order of Melchizedek, not in the order of Aaron.

Of Melchizedek, it says in Hebrews 7:3 he was: Without father, without mother, without genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but made like the Son of God, he remains a priest perpetually.

It says Jesus qualified for this order by way of the fact of his eternal life.

Heb 7:11-12, 14-24 NASB
11 Now if perfection was through the Levitical priesthood (for on the basis of it the people received the Law), what further need [was there] for another priest to arise according to the order of Melchizedek, and not be designated according to the order of Aaron? 12 For when the priesthood is changed, of necessity there takes place a change of law also. ... 14 For it is evident that our Lord was descended from Judah, a tribe with reference to which Moses spoke nothing concerning priests. 15 And this is clearer still, if another priest arises according to the likeness of Melchizedek, 16 who has become [such] not on the basis of a law of physical requirement, but according to the power of an indestructible life. 17 For it is attested [of Him,] "YOU ARE A PRIEST FOREVER ACCORDING TO THE ORDER OF MELCHIZEDEK." 18 For, on the one hand, there is a setting aside of a former commandment because of its weakness and uselessness 19 (for the Law made nothing perfect), and on the other hand there is a bringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God. 20 And inasmuch as [it was] not without an oath 21 (for they indeed became priests without an oath, but He with an oath through the One who said to Him, "THE LORD HAS SWORN AND WILL NOT CHANGE HIS MIND, 'YOU ARE A PRIEST FOREVER'"); 22 so much the more also Jesus has become the guarantee of a better covenant. 23 The [former] priests, on the one hand, existed in greater numbers because they were prevented by death from continuing, 24 but Jesus, on the other hand, because He continues forever, holds His priesthood permanently.

So this oath is God's oath to Jesus Christ that He would become a priest in the order of Melchizedek (that he would have eternal life of being a mediator between God and Man). The "oath" being referenced in Hebrews 7 is not in regards to the covenant of The Law given to Moses nor the Covenant of Faith made with Abraham.

[Psa 110:4 NASB] 4 The LORD has sworn and will not change His mind, "You are a priest forever According to the order of Melchizedek."

That oath was an oath made to Jesus Christ by God through the prophet David.

Is one covenant speaking of the many and the other the one seed?
Here is how I think it could be understood as progession or building of Abrahams faith.
Ge 21:12 And God said unto Abraham, Let it not be grievous in thy sight because of the lad, and because of thy bondwoman; in all that Sarah hath said unto thee, hearken unto her voice; for in Isaac shall thy seed be called.
Ro 9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
Heb 11:18 Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called:

**Ratification (establishing) of the covenant is with Isaac
Ge 17:21 But my covenant will I establish with Isaac, which Sarah shall bear unto thee at this set time in the next year.
**An only son
Gen 22:15 And the angel of the LORD called unto Abraham out of heaven the second time,
16 And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son:
17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies; {shore: Heb. lip }
18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.

Gen 17:7 KJV
And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.

Gal 3:16 NASB
Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, “And to seeds,” as referring to many, but rather to one, “And to your seed,” that is, Christ.

Gal 3:6-9, 26, 29 NASB
6 Even so Abraham BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS. 7 Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. 8 The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, [saying,] "ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU." 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer. ... 26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. ... 29 And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise.

So in Genesis 17:7 we see the word for "seed" is singular - zera is the Hebrew word (and the Jews I've spoken with that read Hebrew confirm it is singular). But it says thy seed (singular) in their (plural) generations. So it is saying that while the promise is being spoken to Abraham, it is being made TO Jesus Christ, but it also applies to those who are in Jesus Christ.

eleos1954 · Sep 21, 2019

ralliann said:
I am wondering how covenant theology views the two covenants made with Abraham?
God makes one covenant with Abraham in Genesis 15. Then later he makes another covenant with Abraham in Genesis 17.
The first speaks concerning the fourth generation of his seed, the second speaks concerning Isaac the first generation of his seed.
Are their various views on this in covenantalism?

The "old covenant ... Mount Sinai

Moses was on the mount for about 40 days. During this time, the people broke covenant with God.

People think the old covenant ended when Jesus died. The old covenant (Israel on Mt. Sinai) ended when Moses threw the rocks out of his hand.

The people broke the covenant. That generation broke it. "Although I was a husband to them, says the Lord this shall be the covenant that I will make" - he's now looking ahead - "with the house of Israel; after those days, says the Lord, I'll put my law in their inward parts and I'll write them in their hearts. I will be their God and they will be my people. And they will teach no man every man his neighbor saying," - or his brother - "saying, 'know the Lord: for they'll all know me, from the least of them to the greatest says the Lord, for I will forgive their iniquity and I will remember their sin no more.

" So the old covenant is based on the promise of the people, 'all the Lord has said we will' - notice - 'we (the people) will do.' The new (better) covenant, God says, 'I will.' Now, do you notice the difference there? Big difference. Old covenant is they were trusting in themselves and their works. New covenant they're trusting in the promises of God. It's what HE will do. But, did the old covenant have laws connected with it? Ten commandment law, right? And there were some other laws.

Hebrews 8, verse 6 ... Does the new covenant have laws connected with it? He says, 'I'll write my law.' So the law is still there. Since he does not specify which laws are in the new covenant, then how do you figure out which laws he's talking about? You must assume that it's at least the Ten Commandments, because that was written in stone by his voice and his finger, so the Ten Commandments is part of that law but then Jesus expands on that, just as Moses expanded on the ten with some of the old testaments ceremonies and so forth. "I will write my law in their inward parts

Ok, so Israel (of that generation) broke covenant with God. What about the Gentiles? The gentiles and the Jews (who originally broke covenant with God) are all grafted into the better (new) covenant through Jesus. Everyone is the same, and everyone enters into the better covenant the same way .... and those who do are Gods Israel ... His people ... those with the faith of Jesus.

"But now he has ordained a more excEllent ministry inasmuch as he is also mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises." Another difference between the old covenant and new covenant, the mediator is not Moses, the mediator is Jesus. The high priest is not Aaron, the high priest is Jesus. The lamb is not some bleating goat or sheep, it's Jesus. It's not the blood - it's better blood - it's not the blood of goats and oxen and sheep, it's the blood of Jesus. And it's telling us it's made on better promises (not new ones) ... the better promises of Jesus.

Galatians 3:29 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise (the promise of Messiah to come.

Everybody is saved by the faith of Jesus. Abel will be in heaven because he offered a lamb. He was saved by the blood of the lamb through faith in the blood of the lamb, which pointed forward to Christ. That's what will save him and others. And, in the same way, everybody now is saved by looking back to the cross.

The people in the old testament were saved by looking forward to the cross. We are all saved by faith in the cross. The difference between the old and the new covenant is that the old covenant was based upon flawed promises ... ie. no one can be saved by the blood of animals ... by works of sacrificing animals.

Where do we first find the new covenant? New testament or old testament? The first time we find the new (better) covenant is in the old testament. If we look here in Jeremiah 31:31 this is the new covenant.

Jeremiah 31:31

31Behold, the days are coming, declares the LORD,
when I will make a new covenant
with the house of Israel
and with the house of Judah.
32It will not be like the covenant
I made with their fathers
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of the land of Egypt—
a covenant they broke,
though I was a husband to them ”
declares the LORD.

33“But this is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel
after those days, declares the LORD.
I will put My law in their minds
and inscribe it on their hearts.
And I will be their God,

It's not a new covenant as in (didn't exist before) it's a better covenant ... and that better is Jesus.

In short, everyone who receives Jesus (who did fulfill the covenants) and continues in Him are Israel and are His people. All (believers) have been grafted into Him through faith.

Glory be to Jesus for loving all of us so much! Amen.

pasifika · Sep 28, 2019

ralliann said:
I am wondering how covenant theology views the two covenants made with Abraham?
God makes one covenant with Abraham in Genesis 15. Then later he makes another covenant with Abraham in Genesis 17.
The first speaks concerning the fourth generation of his seed, the second speaks concerning Isaac the first generation of his seed.
Are their various views on this in covenantalism?

Hello, to contribute to the discussion...the covenant in Genesis 15 is about the land that God has promise to give to Abraham and his seed (singular)

The covenant in Genesis 17 is for Abraham descendants after him.. (those who belong to Abraham the man of faith Both Israel and Gentiles). These are real heirs to the land promise in Genesis 15.

Genesis 17:4.."As for me, this is my covenant with you; You will be the Father of many nations.

ralliann · Oct 7, 2019

pasifika said:
Hello, to contribute to the discussion...the covenant in Genesis 15 is about the land that God has promise to give to Abraham and his seed (singular)

The covenant in Genesis 17 is for Abraham descendants after him.. (those who belong to Abraham the man of faith Both Israel and Gentiles). These are real heirs to the land promise in Genesis 15.

Genesis 17:4.."As for me, this is my covenant with you; You will be the Father of many nations.

That is the thought I have. One earthly worldly, with an earthly tabernacle the other heavenly. One temporal, the other eternal.

Mercy74 · Oct 14, 2019

Gup20 said:
Sure, makes sense. A son cannot inherit his father's things until the father dies. This, however, was comparing the blood in the covenant of The Law to the blood in the covenant of faith specifically in relation to the covering of guilt. It is saying that the blood of goats and calves were but a shadow of the blood of The Messiah... and that the Law was temporal while the covenant of faith is eternal. The law dealing with carnal matters as a shadow of faith and Christ dealing with spiritual matters.

Heb 9:15
For this reason He is the mediator of a new covenant, so that, since a death has taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were committed under the first covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

Gen 17:7
I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your descendants after you.

In this passage in Hebrews 7, the writer is establishing Jesus Priesthood -- that Jesus is the Mediator spoken of in Hebrews 9:15. However, Jesus was not of the lineage of Levi, but of Judah. The Order of Aaron (of Moses and Aaron) was through the Levitial priesthood. The writer of Hebrews is establishing that Jesus was a high priest, but in the order of Melchizedek, not in the order of Aaron.

Of Melchizedek, it says in Hebrews 7:3 he was: Without father, without mother, without genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but made like the Son of God, he remains a priest perpetually.

It says Jesus qualified for this order by way of the fact of his eternal life.

Heb 7:11-12, 14-24 NASB
11 Now if perfection was through the Levitical priesthood (for on the basis of it the people received the Law), what further need [was there] for another priest to arise according to the order of Melchizedek, and not be designated according to the order of Aaron? 12 For when the priesthood is changed, of necessity there takes place a change of law also. ... 14 For it is evident that our Lord was descended from Judah, a tribe with reference to which Moses spoke nothing concerning priests. 15 And this is clearer still, if another priest arises according to the likeness of Melchizedek, 16 who has become [such] not on the basis of a law of physical requirement, but according to the power of an indestructible life. 17 For it is attested [of Him,] "YOU ARE A PRIEST FOREVER ACCORDING TO THE ORDER OF MELCHIZEDEK." 18 For, on the one hand, there is a setting aside of a former commandment because of its weakness and uselessness 19 (for the Law made nothing perfect), and on the other hand there is a bringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God. 20 And inasmuch as [it was] not without an oath 21 (for they indeed became priests without an oath, but He with an oath through the One who said to Him, "THE LORD HAS SWORN AND WILL NOT CHANGE HIS MIND, 'YOU ARE A PRIEST FOREVER'"); 22 so much the more also Jesus has become the guarantee of a better covenant. 23 The [former] priests, on the one hand, existed in greater numbers because they were prevented by death from continuing, 24 but Jesus, on the other hand, because He continues forever, holds His priesthood permanently.

So this oath is God's oath to Jesus Christ that He would become a priest in the order of Melchizedek (that he would have eternal life of being a mediator between God and Man). The "oath" being referenced in Hebrews 7 is not in regards to the covenant of The Law given to Moses nor the Covenant of Faith made with Abraham.

[Psa 110:4 NASB] 4 The LORD has sworn and will not change His mind, "You are a priest forever According to the order of Melchizedek."

That oath was an oath made to Jesus Christ by God through the prophet David.

Gen 17:7 KJV
And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.

Gal 3:16 NASB
Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, “And to seeds,” as referring to many, but rather to one, “And to your seed,” that is, Christ.

Gal 3:6-9, 26, 29 NASB
6 Even so Abraham BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS. 7 Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. 8 The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, [saying,] "ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU." 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer. ... 26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. ... 29 And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise.

So in Genesis 17:7 we see the word for "seed" is singular - zera is the Hebrew word (and the Jews I've spoken with that read Hebrew confirm it is singular). But it says thy seed (singular) in their (plural) generations. So it is saying that while the promise is being spoken to Abraham, it is being made TO Jesus Christ, but it also applies to those who are in Jesus Christ.

A son can not take "full possession" or legal deed until death. However as we learn from the prodigal son story a son may receive the full monetary "value" of his inheritance while his father is still alive. A father may give birthday gifts to his children while they are all alive. A father may allow his children to drive his cars; the father may even purchase a car for his son's 16th birthday (smile). Isaac was the firstborn heir from Sarah; so he should receive a double portion; when the father divides his will among his sons (Luke 15:12). Although this is the case, all of the father's property belong to the elder son ( Luke 15:31).

Mercy74 · Oct 14, 2019

Gup20 said:
Sure, makes sense. A son cannot inherit his father's things until the father dies. This, however, was comparing the blood in the covenant of The Law to the blood in the covenant of faith specifically in relation to the covering of guilt. It is saying that the blood of goats and calves were but a shadow of the blood of The Messiah... and that the Law was temporal while the covenant of faith is eternal. The law dealing with carnal matters as a shadow of faith and Christ dealing with spiritual matters.

Heb 9:15
For this reason He is the mediator of a new covenant, so that, since a death has taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were committed under the first covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

Gen 17:7
I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your descendants after you.

In this passage in Hebrews 7, the writer is establishing Jesus Priesthood -- that Jesus is the Mediator spoken of in Hebrews 9:15. However, Jesus was not of the lineage of Levi, but of Judah. The Order of Aaron (of Moses and Aaron) was through the Levitial priesthood. The writer of Hebrews is establishing that Jesus was a high priest, but in the order of Melchizedek, not in the order of Aaron.

Of Melchizedek, it says in Hebrews 7:3 he was: Without father, without mother, without genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but made like the Son of God, he remains a priest perpetually.

It says Jesus qualified for this order by way of the fact of his eternal life.

Heb 7:11-12, 14-24 NASB
11 Now if perfection was through the Levitical priesthood (for on the basis of it the people received the Law), what further need [was there] for another priest to arise according to the order of Melchizedek, and not be designated according to the order of Aaron? 12 For when the priesthood is changed, of necessity there takes place a change of law also. ... 14 For it is evident that our Lord was descended from Judah, a tribe with reference to which Moses spoke nothing concerning priests. 15 And this is clearer still, if another priest arises according to the likeness of Melchizedek, 16 who has become [such] not on the basis of a law of physical requirement, but according to the power of an indestructible life. 17 For it is attested [of Him,] "YOU ARE A PRIEST FOREVER ACCORDING TO THE ORDER OF MELCHIZEDEK." 18 For, on the one hand, there is a setting aside of a former commandment because of its weakness and uselessness 19 (for the Law made nothing perfect), and on the other hand there is a bringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God. 20 And inasmuch as [it was] not without an oath 21 (for they indeed became priests without an oath, but He with an oath through the One who said to Him, "THE LORD HAS SWORN AND WILL NOT CHANGE HIS MIND, 'YOU ARE A PRIEST FOREVER'"); 22 so much the more also Jesus has become the guarantee of a better covenant. 23 The [former] priests, on the one hand, existed in greater numbers because they were prevented by death from continuing, 24 but Jesus, on the other hand, because He continues forever, holds His priesthood permanently.

So this oath is God's oath to Jesus Christ that He would become a priest in the order of Melchizedek (that he would have eternal life of being a mediator between God and Man). The "oath" being referenced in Hebrews 7 is not in regards to the covenant of The Law given to Moses nor the Covenant of Faith made with Abraham.

[Psa 110:4 NASB] 4 The LORD has sworn and will not change His mind, "You are a priest forever According to the order of Melchizedek."

That oath was an oath made to Jesus Christ by God through the prophet David.

Gen 17:7 KJV
And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.

Gal 3:16 NASB
Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, “And to seeds,” as referring to many, but rather to one, “And to your seed,” that is, Christ.

Gal 3:6-9, 26, 29 NASB
6 Even so Abraham BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS. 7 Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. 8 The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, [saying,] "ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU." 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer. ... 26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. ... 29 And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise.

So in Genesis 17:7 we see the word for "seed" is singular - zera is the Hebrew word (and the Jews I've spoken with that read Hebrew confirm it is singular). But it says thy seed (singular) in their (plural) generations. So it is saying that while the promise is being spoken to Abraham, it is being made TO Jesus Christ, but it also applies to those who are in Jesus Christ.

Abraham worshipped at the altar, he served as priest. Abraham was blessed by Melchizedek; the lesser is blessed by the greater (Hebrews 7:7). A promise was made to Abraham to make him a great nation before any covenant is established (Genesis 12). Normally after a promise is made, a legal agreement is drafted so that the recipient may know that he shall surely take possession of what was promised beforehand. Abraham asked for proof (Genesis 15:8).

Gup20 · Oct 14, 2019

Mercy74 said:
A son can not take "full possession" or legal deed until death. However as we learn from the prodigal son story a son may receive the full monetary "value" of his inheritance while his father is still alive. A father may give birthday gifts to his children while they are all alive. A father may allow his children to drive his cars; the father may even purchase a car for his son's 16th birthday (smile). Isaac was the firstborn heir from Sarah; so he should receive a double portion; when the father divides his will among his sons (Luke 15:12). Although this is the case, all of the father's property belong to the elder son ( Luke 15:31).

[Gal 4:22-28 NASB] 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the bondwoman and one by the free woman. 23 But the son by the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and the son by the free woman through the promise. 24 This is allegorically speaking, for these [women] are two covenants: one [proceeding] from Mount Sinai bearing children who are to be slaves; she is Hagar. 25 Now this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. 26 But the Jerusalem above is free; she is our mother. 27 For it is written, "REJOICE, BARREN WOMAN WHO DOES NOT BEAR; BREAK FORTH AND SHOUT, YOU WHO ARE NOT IN LABOR; FOR MORE NUMEROUS ARE THE CHILDREN OF THE DESOLATE THAN OF THE ONE WHO HAS A HUSBAND." 28 And you brethren, like Isaac, are children of promise.

Isaiah 54:1 is what is quoted in Gal 4:27. It is the culimnation of Isaiah 53 - the "forbidden chapter" in Judaism because the whole chapter describes Jesus in great detail, and in ways Judaism doesn't accept. For example it says,

[Isa 53:4-6 NASB] 4 Surely our griefs He Himself bore, And our sorrows He carried; Yet we ourselves esteemed Him stricken, Smitten of God, and afflicted. 5 But He was pierced through for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities; The chastening for our well-being [fell] upon Him, And by His scourging we are healed. 6 All of us like sheep have gone astray, Each of us has turned to his own way; But the LORD has caused the iniquity of us all To fall on Him.

Mercy74 · Oct 14, 2019

Gup20 said:
[Gal 4:22-28 NASB] 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the bondwoman and one by the free woman. 23 But the son by the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and the son by the free woman through the promise. 24 This is allegorically speaking, for these [women] are two covenants: one [proceeding] from Mount Sinai bearing children who are to be slaves; she is Hagar. 25 Now this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. 26 But the Jerusalem above is free; she is our mother. 27 For it is written, "REJOICE, BARREN WOMAN WHO DOES NOT BEAR; BREAK FORTH AND SHOUT, YOU WHO ARE NOT IN LABOR; FOR MORE NUMEROUS ARE THE CHILDREN OF THE DESOLATE THAN OF THE ONE WHO HAS A HUSBAND." 28 And you brethren, like Isaac, are children of promise.

Isaiah 54:1 is what is quoted in Gal 4:27. It is the culimnation of Isaiah 53 - the "forbidden chapter" in Judaism because the whole chapter describes Jesus in great detail, and in ways Judaism doesn't accept. For example it says,

[Isa 53:4-6 NASB] 4 Surely our griefs He Himself bore, And our sorrows He carried; Yet we ourselves esteemed Him stricken, Smitten of God, and afflicted. 5 But He was pierced through for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities; The chastening for our well-being [fell] upon Him, And by His scourging we are healed. 6 All of us like sheep have gone astray, Each of us has turned to his own way; But the LORD has caused the iniquity of us all To fall on Him.

More are the children of the desolate than than the one who has a husband.Sarah had a husband, Sarah was barren, Isaac was born in their old age.

Gup20 · Oct 14, 2019

Mercy74 said:
More are the children of the desolate than than the one who has a husband.Sarah had a husband, Sarah was barren, Isaac was born in their old age.

It means more adopted children who are of the same faith as Abraham than physical descendants.

Mercy74 · Oct 14, 2019

Gup20 said:
It means more adopted children who are of the same faith as Abraham than physical descendants.

As Pharisee Paul says; Hagar bear children "who are to be slaves"; yet for those who know the story Ishmael is a firstborn predicted by Abraham and Sarah to be an heir. Ishmael and Isaac buried their father Abraham together (Genesis 25:9). Sarah did not wish for them to become "co-heirs" (Genesis 21:10).

Gup20 · Oct 14, 2019

Mercy74 said:
As Pharisee Paul says; Hagar bear children "who are to be slaves"; yet for those who know the story Ishmael is a firstborn predicted by Abraham and Sarah to be an heir. Ishmael and Isaac buried their father Abraham together (Genesis 25:9). Sarah did not wish for them to become "co-heirs" (Genesis 21:10).

This is an allegory where Hagar & Ishmael represent the physical heirs (the Jews & the Law) and Sarah & Isaac represent the spiritual heirs (the Christians & the covenant of faith).

Mercy74 · Oct 14, 2019

Gup20 said:
This is an allegory where Hagar & Ishmael represent the physical heirs (the Jews & the Law) and Sarah & Isaac represent the spiritual heirs (the Christians & the covenant of faith).

Isaac is the son of Sarah; Sarah the grandmother of Israel. The Jews are like Isaac; children of the promise.

Gup20 · Oct 14, 2019

Mercy74 said:
Isaac is the son of Sarah; Sarah the grandmother of Israel. The Jews are like Isaac; children of the promise.

Galatians 4:22-31 (NASB) 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the bondwoman and one by the free woman. 23 But the son by the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and the son by the free woman through the promise. 24 This is allegorically speaking, for these women are two covenants: one proceeding from Mount Sinai bearing children who are to be slaves; she is Hagar. 25 Now this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. 26 But the Jerusalem above is free; she is our mother. 27 For it is written, "REJOICE, BARREN WOMAN WHO DOES NOT BEAR; BREAK FORTH AND SHOUT, YOU WHO ARE NOT IN LABOR; FOR MORE NUMEROUS ARE THE CHILDREN OF THE DESOLATE THAN OF THE ONE WHO HAS A HUSBAND." 28 And you brethren, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29 But as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so it is now also. 30 But what does the Scripture say? "CAST OUT THE BONDWOMAN AND HER SON, FOR THE SON OF THE BONDWOMAN SHALL NOT BE AN HEIR WITH THE SON OF THE FREE WOMAN." 31 So then, brethren, we are not children of a bondwoman, but of the free woman.

Paul, talking to Gentiles, says they are children of the free woman referred to in Isaiah 54:1.

I think there is room for all the descendants of Abraham (physical & spiritual) in Christ.

Mercy74 · Oct 14, 2019

Gup20 said:
Galatians 4:22-31 (NASB) 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the bondwoman and one by the free woman. 23 But the son by the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and the son by the free woman through the promise. 24 This is allegorically speaking, for these women are two covenants: one proceeding from Mount Sinai bearing children who are to be slaves; she is Hagar. 25 Now this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. 26 But the Jerusalem above is free; she is our mother. 27 For it is written, "REJOICE, BARREN WOMAN WHO DOES NOT BEAR; BREAK FORTH AND SHOUT, YOU WHO ARE NOT IN LABOR; FOR MORE NUMEROUS ARE THE CHILDREN OF THE DESOLATE THAN OF THE ONE WHO HAS A HUSBAND." 28 And you brethren, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29 But as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so it is now also. 30 But what does the Scripture say? "CAST OUT THE BONDWOMAN AND HER SON, FOR THE SON OF THE BONDWOMAN SHALL NOT BE AN HEIR WITH THE SON OF THE FREE WOMAN." 31 So then, brethren, we are not children of a bondwoman, but of the free woman.

Paul, talking to Gentiles, says they are children of the free woman referred to in Isaiah 54:1.

I think there is room for all the descendants of Abraham (physical & spiritual) in Christ.

As Paul the Pharisee says "for these women are two covenants"; these two mothers gave birth to two firstborns (Deuteronomy 21:17); they are not co-heirs. Paul the Pharisee and his Jewish brethren "we" are the children of the free women; Sarah; they have one in the same father Isaac (Romans 9:10) You must read and understand Paul's words carefully (2 Peter 3:16). "We" means "We" in all cases; sometimes "We" mean "US"; but never "You".

ralliann · Oct 14, 2019

Mercy74 said:
A son can not take "full possession" or legal deed until death. However as we learn from the prodigal son story a son may receive the full monetary "value" of his inheritance while his father is still alive. A father may give birthday gifts to his children while they are all alive. A father may allow his children to drive his cars; the father may even purchase a car for his son's 16th birthday (smile). Isaac was the firstborn heir from Sarah; so he should receive a double portion; when the father divides his will among his sons (Luke 15:12). Although this is the case, all of the father's property belong to the elder son ( Luke 15:31).

The problem is it is considered a gift not an inheritance. Abe gave gifts to the sons of his concubines not an inheritance. He left Isaac all that belonged to him when he died. Isaac was as an only begotten son, the sole heir.

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