Deliverance Gifts.

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swordsman1

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That complete thing coming couldn't be the completion of the Bible, like WT teaches it is, the religion I used to believe in. Why? Because Paul died well before the Bible as we know it today was complete. So, we can throw that idea out the window. It doesn't make any sense in light of Paul's scriptures.

Paul had no idea when he would die, nor did he know when the last book of the Bible would be written. So it is perfectly feasible for him to be looking forward to a time when there would be a completed canon. Had he not been killed prematurely he may well have witnessed it.

Since it occurs after Paul's death the increased knowledge is obviously increased knowledge about God, the Father , Son, and heavenly things centered around God's purpose for Paul.

The passage says "I will know fully". But no one, not even Paul, achieves a full knowledge of God when they die, otherwise they would become omniscient. Therefore the knowledge referred to here cannot be a general knowledge about God. Remember the context of this passage is certain spiritual gifts ceasing (tongues, prophecy and knowledge), and being replaced by something better. The knowledge that ceases is therefore the spiritual gift of words of knowledge (1 Cor 12:8), a revelatory gift like prophecy. If it is the revelatory gifts that cease when "completeness" comes it follows that their replacement would also be revelatory in nature. At the time of Paul's writing the early church needed prophecy and words of knowledge to guide them in the faith in the absence of a New Testament. However when a church had a completed canon, it would no longer need those gifts to guide them. Thus, the completed canon would replace prophecies and words of knowledge. Then they would "know fully" God's complete revelation to the church.
 
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swordsman1

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It is not the gifts that cease, it is the partial aspect of them that ceases.

But Steve, it plainly says the gifts themselves would cease, not the "partiality of them"...

But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away.

When we see Christ face-to-face (the perfection coming) then we will know in full and prophesy in full. No need for partial prophecy when we know the whole, as we are fully known.

It doesn't say anything about seeing Christ face to face. Christ is never mentioned in this passage. "Face to face" is referring to the analogy of the mirror. The gifts prophecy and knowledge would only provide partial revelations from God to man, like seeing a poor reflection of someone in a mirror (mirrors were poor quality in those days). But when completeness comes it would be like seeing someone "face to face". We would have a far superior revelation of God in the completed canon.
 
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swordsman1

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See Acts 2:17 &18 where Peter states what the New Testament authors' view of scriptural "last days" was. That it began at Pentecost with the pouring of God's Spirit, resulting in miraculous dreams and visions and prophecy; compare that to what Peter at wrote 2Peter 3:3-10. There he states the "last days" only end when this world ends.

And 2Peter 3:3-10 is the only statement of scripture that reveals when the NT last days end. Acts:2:17-18 tells us when they begin. There is no scripture that states pouring out of Spirit with resultant dreams, visions, and prophecy stopped when the last days began. Instead Acts states God does that in the last days. It does not say he stopped before the last days end. Neither are there any NT scripture that state the last days start and stop with a break in-between. There is no last days #1 and last days #2 in scripture. Scriptures imply apostles viewed that period as one long time period.

I agree that the "last days" are from Pentecost to the coming of Christ. However not everything listed in Joel's prophecy that Peter quoted lasts throughout all of the last days. The sun turning to darkness and the moon to blood only occurs only at the end of the last days. In the same way some of those other things listed such as prophecy and visions may have only occured at the beginning of the last days.
 
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swordsman1

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I don't; I believe that God used her and healed through her.
There ARE people who have a gift of healing, because the Spirit has not withdrawn his gifts. That women was not one of them, but there's no doubt that God healed me, immediately and supernaturally, that day, without formal prayer or without there being a healing service.

If you don't believe she had the gift of healing then why did you use her as evidence to counter my statement that the gift of healing has ceased? See your post #21.

Strange that you think that someone who has a gift of healing will just need to touch someone/rub shoulders with them in the street to heal, without needing to ask their heavenly Father to heal.

Because if someone had been gifted with the ability to heal they wouldn't need to pray for healing. The same as someone who has the gift of teaching does not need to pray to be able to teach. They already have that ability.

Paul says we are to pray at all times, 1 Thessalonians 5:16-18, Ephesians 6:18. He said that when we don't know how to pray, the Spirit - i.e the One who gives gifts - prays for us, Romans 8:27. As I said, Jesus prayed often. He was God, and he prayed, as an example to us - yet you talk about people "resorting to prayer", as if communicating with our heavenly Father was a desperate, last ditch attempt to get something done.

Yes, we need to pray to God for healing, because we don't have the ability to heal people ourselves. Jesus however did have that ability, because he is God incarnate. That's why there is no record of him praying for healing. He didn't have to.


But it's illogical to jump to the conclusion that they had no communication at all with God because Scripture does not say that they prayed.

No it is not illogical. If there is no mention of Jesus having a drink of wine every time he healed then it is logical and safe to conclude he didn't do so. If Jesus did not have the power to heal but had to pray a silent prayer to the Father in order to heal someone as you suggest, then scripture would have told us that important theological detail about Christ. But it doesn't.

Neither does it mean that they didn't.
There may be no indication; again, it doesn't mean they didn't pray.
As you can't prove that none of them didn't silently say "Father please heal this person", you can't judge that the gift of supernatural healing never needs prayer.

You are the one making the suggestion that Jesus and the disciples silently prayed before they healed people. The onus is therefore upon you to prove it, not for me to prove they didn't. You are shifting the burden of proof - another logical fallacy.
 
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dqhall

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But, the Apostles had gift that proved their apostleship.


“Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds.” 2 Corinthians 12:12 (KJV 1900)
Jesus returned to Nazareth and taught in their synagogue. They wanted to see miracles, but Jesus denied them. They got upset with him (Luke 4).

Jesus turned water into wine at Cana. The people did not even know a miracle had occurred. The servants knew it (John 2).
 
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dqhall

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Where is it WRITTEN by GOD, that the canon is closed? Which fundamentalists chiseled that tombstone to the living WORD of God? And why do we still walk in agreement with those who began the Great Apostasy. A spiritual decline which climaxed after 500 years of the church walking in those spiritual things which we today desire to raise from the burial grave of orthodoxy's beginning. Personally I have a number of written words which were spoken to me. And their truths dull the shovels of those who've buried the living word, only to exalt to worshipful status, 'the dead letter' of the law of liberty. It has been a sad commentary to see the staff of life become the club of death in the hands of those refusing to walk in the Spirit.
The canon I wrote about ended with the Book of Revelation. Other books have been written. Other works have been done.
 
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Carl Emerson

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At the time of Paul's writing the early church needed prophecy and words of knowledge to guide them in the faith in the absence of a New Testament.

Can you explain how having a NT in your hand can in any way replace the Living Word through the Holy Spirit that Paul needed to walk wisely in God's purpose?

Take for example Acts 13...

While they were worshiping the Lord and fasting,
the Holy Spirit said,
“Set apart for Me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.”

This was through the gift of Prophesy...

The NT was not given to replace the living word within and the gifts needed to determine the exact intent of God's heart in the specific circumstances and times they faced.

That is not what Scripture is for.

That is to gag the Holy Spirit within - no more specific guidance allowed...

No wonder insistence on a Silent Holy Spirit within has resulted in more than a thousand years of limited fruit in the church.

This was needed so faith could be 'controlled' by a apostate church.

Praise God that a fresh breath is blowing on the bones, again individuals are standing on their feet with His Word within, alive again by His breath. Moving in Gifts long lost.
Be very careful in this late hour not to attribute His work to the Devil by holding onto man made theologies that have conveniently justified a muted church.

I dare to 'prophesy to the bones' as it were - not to support the staged circus that passes for a spiritual awakening in some branches of the modern church, rather individuals that have walked the walk of obedience and know His voice - care for the lost as He did - heal and set free as He did -

He will not let the world slide into deep deception without raising up His army to demonstrate His love - not as museum curators of a lost faith, but living lights in simple obedience doing the 'Greater Things' that He promised.

Who among us will prophesy to the bones ?

Then cover one's head and wait for the stones?
 
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Hillsage

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The canon I wrote about ended with the Book of Revelation. Other books have been written. Other works have been done.
It matters not which “canon” anyone thinks is closed. My question still stands unchallenged; By whose authority was this orthodox ‘litmus’ made?

The Bible itself names and quotes the book of Jasher (Joshua 10:13) as well as numerous ‘partial quotes’ and one complete quote of the book of Enoch (Jude 1:14,15). Unfortunately both books didn’t meet the indoctrinated theologies of a church that had pretty much “quenched” the former church move of being “led of the Spirit”. A move which is the biblical litmus as to proving who it is that walks as a mature “son/huios of God” and not just crawling or walking as a pais, paidion, teknon...eg baby, toddler or teenager.
 
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swordsman1

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Can you explain how having a NT in your hand can in any way replace the Living Word through the Holy Spirit that Paul needed to walk wisely in God's purpose?

Take for example Acts 13...

While they were worshiping the Lord and fasting,
the Holy Spirit said,
“Set apart for Me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.”

This was through the gift of Prophesy...

The NT was not given to replace the living word within and the gifts needed to determine the exact intent of God's heart in the specific circumstances and times they faced.

That is not what Scripture is for.

That is to gag the Holy Spirit within - no more specific guidance allowed...

No wonder insistence on a Silent Holy Spirit within has resulted in more than a thousand years of limited fruit in the church.

This was needed so faith could be 'controlled' by a apostate church.

Praise God that a fresh breath is blowing on the bones, again individuals are standing on their feet with His Word within, alive again by His breath. Moving in Gifts long lost.
Be very careful in this late hour not to attribute His work to the Devil by holding onto man made theologies that have conveniently justified a muted church.

I dare to 'prophesy to the bones' as it were - not to support the staged circus that passes for a spiritual awakening in some branches of the modern church, rather individuals that have walked the walk of obedience and know His voice - care for the lost as He did - heal and set free as He did -

He will not let the world slide into deep deception without raising up His army to demonstrate His love - not as museum curators of a lost faith, but living lights in simple obedience doing the 'Greater Things' that He promised.

Who among us will prophesy to the bones ?

Then cover one's head and wait for the stones?

The gift of prophecy was indeed active in the church at Antioch as it was in other first century churches. But now that prophecy has ceased we are guided by scripture which is sufficient for us to be thoroughly equipped for EVERY good work (2 Tim 3:16) and through which we have everything we need for life (2 Peter 1:3). It is a lamp to our feet and a light to our path (Ps 119:105) and we are warned not to go beyond what is written therein (1 Cor 4:6).

What we see today in the charismatic church is not the gift of prophecy. People have feelings or thoughts popping into their head which are then declared to be a "God told me" word from the Lord. That is never how prophecy is described in scripture.

You quoted from Acts 13. When the Holy Spirit said, “Set apart for Me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.”, those were the actual words that were spoken to the prophet. If it wasn't then Luke was lying. It wasn't thoughts popping into their heads and then declared to be a 'word from the Lord' as we see today.

This is how scripture describes people who claim prophecies from their thoughts and feelings....

Jer 14:14 “The prophets are prophesying lies in my name. I have not sent them or appointed them or spoken to them. They are prophesying to you false visions, divinations, idolatries and the delusions of their own minds.

Jer 23:16 “Do not listen to what the prophets are prophesying to you; they fill you with false hopes. They speak visions from their own minds, not from the mouth of the Lord."
 
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Ricky M

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Big difference between the real and "hearsay" without a shred of documentation.
And Jesus couldn't heal in certain towns because He couldn't prove He was in-network.
 
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Dave L

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Ricky M

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What do you mean by this?
It means that people who insist on worldly proof of spiritual works are going to be very disappointed. God don't work that way.
 
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Carl Emerson

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The gift of prophecy was indeed active in the church at Antioch as it was in other first century churches. But now that prophecy has ceased we are guided by scripture which is sufficient for us to be thoroughly equipped for EVERY good work (2 Tim 3:16) and through which we have everything we need for life (2 Peter 1:3). It is a lamp to our feet and a light to our path (Ps 119:105) and we are warned not to go beyond what is written therein (1 Cor 4:6).

What we see today in the charismatic church is not the gift of prophecy. People have feelings or thoughts popping into their head which are then declared to be a "God told me" word from the Lord. That is never how prophecy is described in scripture.

You quoted from Acts 13. When the Holy Spirit said, “Set apart for Me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.”, those were the actual words that were spoken to the prophet. If it wasn't then Luke was lying. It wasn't thoughts popping into their heads and then declared to be a 'word from the Lord' as we see today.

This is how scripture describes people who claim prophecies from their thoughts and feelings....

Jer 14:14 “The prophets are prophesying lies in my name. I have not sent them or appointed them or spoken to them. They are prophesying to you false visions, divinations, idolatries and the delusions of their own minds.

Jer 23:16 “Do not listen to what the prophets are prophesying to you; they fill you with false hopes. They speak visions from their own minds, not from the mouth of the Lord."

As I predicted the stones will come...

What is wrong with you guys?

I sit having dinner with Esther Dorflinger in Jerusalem. Half way through the meal I am overcome with a deep urgency to leave immediately in the middle of the meal !

In obedience to this inner urgency I jump in a Taxi and rush back to the House in Gilo in which I was staying.

As the taxi pulls up in the pouring rain I see the Husband running down the road. I yell out what is wrong? He yells back my wife is having a heart attack I'm getting the GP.

I go into the house and she is crying out not to be taken because her children were still young.

I feel her pulse - light fluttery 132

She tells me her aunt died of the same symptoms at the same age.

What do I do - ring the Pastor to come and pray?

No.. it is clearly for me to respond.

By this time I realised that there was a spiritual component to the infirmity so I dealt with that and prayed for healing.

She was fully restored in about 2 minutes and never had a relapse. This was 1983. PM me and I will give the name if you feel you must know.

You are insisting I have to believe that Satan spoke to me in the middle of the meal and had me rush across the city to see a woman, crying out to the Lord - healed???

As I said... the stones would fall...
 
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swordsman1

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As I predicted the stones will come...

What is wrong with you guys?

I sit having dinner with Esther Dorflinger in Jerusalem. Half way through the meal I am overcome with a deep urgency to leave immediately in the middle of the meal !

In obedience to this inner urgency I jump in a Taxi and rush back to the House in Gilo in which I was staying.

As the taxi pulls up in the pouring rain I see the Husband running down the road. I yell out what is wrong? He yells back my wife is having a heart attack I'm getting the GP.

I go into the house and she is crying out not to be taken because her children were still young.

I feel her pulse - light fluttery 132

She tells me her aunt died of the same symptoms at the same age.

What do I do - ring the Pastor to come and pray?

No.. it is clearly for me to respond.

By this time I realised that there was a spiritual component to the infirmity so I dealt with that and prayed for healing.

She was fully restored in about 2 minutes and never had a relapse. This was 1983. PM me and I will give the name if you feel you must know.

You are insisting I have to believe that Satan spoke to me in the middle of the meal and had me rush across the city to see a woman, crying out to the Lord - healed???

As I said... the stones would fall...

Your experience does not define doctrine. From my perspective it is just another unsubstantiated 'story'. Show me from scripture that is how prophecy operates then I might be persuaded.
 
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Ricky M

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Your experience does not define doctrine. From my perspective it is just another unsubstantiated 'story'. Show me from scripture that is how prophecy operates then I might be persuaded.
No you won't.
 
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Ricky M

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My wife and I spend a week on the beach every year. I love to bodysurf, but one year it had been flat and mushy and no good at all for days. Finally, I did go in just to say I had gotten wet. But I just tread water there, bobbing like a cork, everyone else around me bobbing like corks, waiting for something to happen.

I got to thinking, 'gee Lord, I hate to be self-serving but it would be nice to have some waves’. But time goes by and the corks keep bobbing. So again at some point I muse, Jesus, if it'd be in Your grace, could we have some waves..? But of course time passes and the corks keep bobbing.

My head is getting burnt, the rest of me is waterlogged, I'm thinking gee God if I can just have one wave so I don't have to swim back to shore... And these words come to me, in my spirit - "what do you keep asking Me for? You know better than that. I said what I do you will do and more - You have My authority to call the waves up". So I laugh, and think You're absolutely right; then I faced out to sea and said "in Jesus' Name, how about some waves". A minute goes by, 2, and here they come. The best set of the week. Wave after wave after wave after wave... I caught several good rides, then when I stopped to catch my breath I saw that lots of people were getting lots of good rides. Kids that had been standing around in the equivalent of a kiddie pool were now chasing each other thru the surf, and there was a whole different Spirit in the water.

I laughed and said "Amen Lord, thank You for all of these". A kid next to me says "what's that mister?" "I think God decided we needed to be having more fun out here." "Yeah, the waves are really energetic now!" Amen kid, I laughed, they sure are. It went on just long enough to wear everyone out, then it went back to flat and mushy for pretty much the rest of the week.

So how do we test this one? There was a word of knowledge, followed by an act of faith in Jesus’ Name, bringing about the working of a miracle – culminating in God’s power being confirmed to a boy who recognized that something was going on.

Now, yes it may look like I pestered God into doing something, ‘waving the magic wand’ as some have called it. But what I shared is what was in my mind's eye. The question is, what was God seeing? Perhaps God saw this kid on the beach who needed a demonstration of His power, and me bobbing in the water willing to take part in something, and he put the two together. Maybe what I interpreted as 'wave the wand' was really the Holy Spirit saying, hey I need you to do something for me. Why me? Because I was probably the only one out there with the bxxxx - I mean faith - enough to actually face the sea and say in Jesus’ Name so be it.

I sought the Lord.
I received a word to act.
In faith I faced the sea and in Jesus Name told it to arise.
The waves arose.
That the waves had arisen was verified by a total stranger.
The power and thus the glory of God was spoken between the two of us.

That’s how it works… and if you don’t believe me, again, I ask that you testify to my unworthiness as a witness and get me out of jury duty!
 
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Carl Emerson

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While I am at it... we prayed in a small group for a lady who had a wall in the womb and couldnt have children. As I believe His authority is supreme in all realms including the physical I proclaimed against this condition in His name. Sure enough the wall disappeared and she has had several children. She has served as a missionary in Bangladesh. Name available for the unbelieving via PM if she agrees.
 
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Carl Emerson

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Why not give Him more Glory...

When the roof was being lifted by crane onto the new Spreydon Baptist Church it was a rainy day and we needed a fine break. After prayer the rain continued at all four intersections on the block but was dry for the lift.
 
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