Deliverance Gifts.

Carl Emerson said:

How about the Hospital Registrar who dealt with the Xrays in the hospital, standing up in Church in response to a Polish man testifying healing of broken bones in the foot, and confirming the unexplainable healing. I can supply names but as I said before, theology runs deep and no evidence is ever enough.

Click to expand...

I just hope that the next time I'm called for jury duty, these naysayers will attest to what a horrible witness I am and get me out of it!

Saint Steven said:

Thanks for expanding on this. That was a long read. But very inspiring. (see below)

As I understand it...
It is not the gifts that cease, it is the partiality of them that ceases.
When we see Christ face-to-face (the perfection coming) then we will know in full and prophesy in full. No need for partial prophecy when we know the whole, as we are fully known.

1 Corinthians 13:8-12
Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears. 11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. 12 For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

Click to expand...

Yes! Healing will cease when Christ returns and restores us to perfect health. Tongues will cease when Christ returns and restores our perfect singular language. Knowledge will cease when Christ returns and we no longer see thru the glass darkly!

Mark Quayle said:

It still happens today. Does that mean, eg if someone goes to the elders and they do the proscripted actions and pray for that someone, and so that someone is healed, does that mean the elders have the gift of healings or whatever?

(An aside, I'd like to know why people assume the lists given in the NT are complete and why others add their own, and define the gifts in either one of the lists, and somehow this is all accepted as Gospel.)

My point is that the fact there is healing and other miracles nowadays by no means implies the gifts have (or have not, for that matter) ceased. It says nothing about the gifts.

Click to expand...

Well one gift definitely still exists. God still contacts some Christians showing their future which includes showing them the future of others also in surroundings that will exist during Kingdom rule. Sharing that is sharing prophecy. It doesn't matter that other Christians experienced the similar insights via God's spirit in past history. The same holds true of most prophecies in scripture. Most were duplicated by other prophets.

"prediction, was one of the functions of the prophet. It has been defined as a "miracle of knowledge, a declaration or description or representation of something future, beyond the power of human capacity to foresee, discern, or conjecture." Prophecy Definition and Meaning - Bible Dictionary

See Acts 2:17 &18 where Peter states what the New Testament authors' view of scriptural "last days" was. That it began at Pentecost with the pouring of God's Spirit, resulting in miraculous dreams and visions and prophecy; compare that to what Peter at wrote 2Peter 3:3-10. There he states the "last days" only end when this world ends.

And 2Peter 3:3-10 is the only statement of scripture that reveals when the NT last days end. Acts:2:17-18 tells us when they begin. There is no scripture that states pouring out of Spirit with resultant dreams, visions, and prophecy stopped when the last days began. Instead Acts states God does that in the last days. It does not say he stopped before the last days end. Neither are there any NT scripture that state the last days start and stop with a break in-between. There is no last days #1 and last days #2 in scripture. Scriptures imply apostles viewed that period as one long time period.

swordsman1 said:

What makes you think prayers must be answered immediately? Or that someone else did not pray for you that day?

Click to expand...

It's quite possible that someone, somewhere, prayed for me that day - it's equally possible that no one prayed for me. Neither of us know, or can prove anything, one way or the other.

swordsman1 said:

That seems to be a more likely explanation than someone who says she isn't a Christian saying

Click to expand...

Neither she, not I, ever said that she wasn't a Christian - you're reading into what I said.

swordsman1 said:

Strange that you should think this woman has the supernatural ability to heal

Click to expand...

I don't; I believe that God used her and healed through her.
There ARE people who have a gift of healing, because the Spirit has not withdrawn his gifts. That women was not one of them, but there's no doubt that God healed me, immediately and supernaturally, that day, without formal prayer or without there being a healing service.

swordsman1 said:

but Jesus and the disciples didn't and had to resort to prayer!

Click to expand...

Strange that you think that someone who has a gift of healing will just need to touch someone/rub shoulders with them in the street to heal, without needing to ask their heavenly Father to heal.

Paul says we are to pray at all times, 1 Thessalonians 5:16-18, Ephesians 6:18. He said that when we don't know how to pray, the Spirit - i.e the One who gives gifts - prays for us, Romans 8:27. As I said, Jesus prayed often. He was God, and he prayed, as an example to us - yet you talk about people "resorting to prayer", as if communicating with our heavenly Father was a desperate, last ditch attempt to get something done.

swordsman1 said:

There is certainly no mention of prayer when Jesus and the disciples healed people from sickness.

Click to expand...

But it's illogical to jump to the conclusion that they had no communication at all with God because Scripture does not say that they prayed.

swordsman1 said:

You are arguing from silence. Because scripture is silent on whether Jesus and the disciples prayed for healing does not mean they did!

Click to expand...

Neither does it mean that they didn't.

swordsman1 said:

In every example there is no indication they ever prayed for healing, it was always a command or a touch.

Click to expand...

There may be no indication; again, it doesn't mean they didn't pray.
As you can't prove that none of them didn't silently say "Father please heal this person", you can't judge that the gift of supernatural healing never needs prayer.
We are not told that Jesus ever read the OT either - that doesn't mean that all the verses he quoted and people he referred to were all supernaturally revealed to him.
I'm all for Scripture, but it doesn't record every single thing; nor should it. When we are told by Jesus to pray, and told by Paul to pray continuously, there should be no need for Scripture to say "then they prayed silently before they did ...... ", before we think "oh yes, we should talk to God first."

Prayer is communicating with God and listening to him; talking to our heavenly Father should be something we delight to do, not something we feel we have to "resort to".

Ricky M said:

The only thing that ever ceased was belief.

Click to expand...

Have you compared the Apostle's signs and wonders to what passes for miracles today?

AlexDTX said:

That you know about.

Click to expand...

When's the last time you healed an amputee or raised the dead?

Carl Emerson said:

When did Paul heal an amputee or raise the dead?

Click to expand...

Jesus healed Malchus' amputated ear and gave the apostles the same authority. Paul raised the dead. The Apostles raise the dead several times in Acts.

Paul; “And there sat in a window a certain young man named Eutychus, being fallen into a deep sleep: and as Paul was long preaching, he sunk down with sleep, and fell down from the third loft, and was taken up dead. And Paul went down, and fell on him, and embracing him said, Trouble not yourselves; for his life is in him.” Acts 20:9–10 (KJV 1900)

Carl Emerson said:

Sorry Dave - maybe Acts 20 but to me it is unclear whether he appeared dead or was dead.

Click to expand...

Either way, the Apostles raised the dead. Today's frauds cannot.

Dave L said:

When's the last time you healed an amputee or raised the dead?

Click to expand...

Sadly, when my faith was young, I was asked to speak at a funeral. I sat in front of the casket and the Lord spoke to me and told me to raise him from the dead. The thought of a dead man coming back to life frightened me and I disobeyed the Lord. I knew the man would rise, and later, realized the damage horror movies had done to me.

But I do not hide behind a cessationist doctrine to excuse my disobedience.

AlexDTX said:

Sadly, when my faith was young, I was asked to speak at a funeral. I sat in front of the casket and the Lord spoke to me and told me to raise him from the dead. The thought of a dead man coming back to life frightened me and I disobeyed the Lord. I knew the man would rise, and later, realized the damage horror movies had done to me.

But I do not hide behind a cessationist doctrine to excuse my disobedience.

Click to expand...

Relax, God speaks through his word only. See this link;
Religious affiliation and psychiatric disorder among Protestant baby boomers. - PubMed - NCBI

Dave L said:

When's the last time you healed an amputee or raised the dead?

Click to expand...

Peter and John were present for the healing of a crippled man. It was not Peter who healed, but the Holy Spirit. Acts 3

Even though the Bible canon closed, wonders and miracles have not ceased. Books and articles have been written on the subject.

Someone prayed to find a lost item and found it. God is real. Sinful desire prevented people from finding their full potential in Christ.

AlexDTX said:

Sadly, when my faith was young, I was asked to speak at a funeral. I sat in front of the casket and the Lord spoke to me and told me to raise him from the dead. The thought of a dead man coming back to life frightened me and I disobeyed the Lord. I knew the man would rise, and later, realized the damage horror movies had done to me.

But I do not hide behind a cessationist doctrine to excuse my disobedience.

Click to expand...

Alex,
I too had a similar experience at McDonald's years ago. It was at a time when I was 'hearing' Him better than I am now, I'm sad to say. A local mental health agency brought two clients in to eat. He put one in a table across from me and took the other client with him to order. As this poor soul looked with blank eyes at me and I felt like the Lord told me to go cast the demon out that the devil had 'taken her mind captive' with. I knew that verse was in the book/bible/graphe (Gr). But now I was faced with acting upon His spoken WORD/rhema . And as my "willing spirit" was wrestling with my "weak flesh" I almost did. Sadly, today there are so many who have never heard the WORD/rhema of God and must lean heavily on their carnal minded understanding of the GRAPE calling it a RHEMA. May we both do better the next time my brother.

bling said:

John the Baptist did not have God physically heal anyone through him.

Did any miracles going back to the Jew walking through the Red Sea cause people to believe to the point of following God in obedience to God?

I would point to Lazarus in the rich man and Lazarus story and what Jesus said in John 7:1-9. Lazarus was providing the rich man whom God also Loved with the very best opportunity to experience Godly type Love through befriending Lazarus.

There is an excellent reason why today, we do not have scientific “proof” of the miracles that do happen. Documented verifiable videos, pictures, recordings and independent supporters are not there.

Click to expand...

Just wondering if there's any relevance in this to my post?

dqhall said:

Peter and John were present for the healing of a crippled man. It was not Peter who healed, but the Holy Spirit. Acts 3

Even though the Bible canon closed, wonders and miracles have not ceased. Books and articles have been written on the subject.

Someone prayed to find a lost item and found it. God is real. Sinful desire prevented people from finding their full potential in Christ.

Click to expand...

Where is it WRITTEN by GOD, that the canon is closed? Which fundamentalists chiseled that tombstone to the living WORD of God? And why do we still walk in agreement with those who began the Great Apostasy. A spiritual decline which climaxed after 500 years of the church walking in those spiritual things which we today desire to raise from the burial grave of orthodoxy's beginning. Personally I have a number of written words which were spoken to me. And their truths dull the shovels of those who've buried the living word, only to exalt to worshipful status, 'the dead letter' of the law of liberty. It has been a sad commentary to see the staff of life become the club of death in the hands of those refusing to walk in the Spirit.

Dave L said:

Relax, God speaks through his word only. See this link;
Religious affiliation and psychiatric disorder among Protestant baby boomers. - PubMed - NCBI

Click to expand...

Wow Dave, I thought you were more sensible than to use a psychiatric document as proof of your theology.
Surely you know that the originators of modern psychological theory got most of their knowledge by channelling demons!

But given your utter rejection of the gifts of the Holy Spirit, its no surprise that you also have no discernment.
ie. If you don't know what a real dollar looks like, you won't know what a counterfeit dollar looks like.

dqhall said:

Peter and John were present for the healing of a crippled man. It was not Peter who healed, but the Holy Spirit. Acts 3

Even though the Bible canon closed, wonders and miracles have not ceased. Books and articles have been written on the subject.

Someone prayed to find a lost item and found it. God is real. Sinful desire prevented people from finding their full potential in Christ.

Click to expand...

But, the Apostles had gift that proved their apostleship.


“Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds.” 2 Corinthians 12:12 (KJV 1900)

Where do you get the idea the canon was closed?
I think you should study history.

Marcions canon was the first, and firmly rejected by Rome, indeed tertullian in 200 wrote a 5 part treatise against it.

Various canons appeared and were dissolved, until the matter was decided by authority 300 years after Christ. Some early canons for example contained Hermas. There were other books with apparent apostolic origin, eg the protoevangelium.

The question was not resolved for three centuries by the church.

Until then the passage of faith was by handing down by appointed succession - a process called "tradition" by "word of mouth and letter", not least because, there were no printing presses, it would be almost another two millenia before average joe could both afford it and read it, until then doctrine was passed by tradition of the church "the pillar of truth"

Even now tradition and authority are vital to determine scripture means. If all you have are the words, you do not have the Word of God, only the words and correct meaning for them are the Word of God.

Carl Emerson said:

Hi there,

If John dies around AD100, the Canon of scripture is closed and the gifts ceased, how come the church fathers continued to testify concerning deliverance and healings after that time?

Examples:

110 A.D. Ignatius of Antioch, Clement of Rome, Didache
150 A.D.-180 A.D. Justin Martyr, Tatian, Theophilus
190 A.D.-210 A.D. Irenaeus, Melito of Sardis, Tertullian, Minucius Felix
230 A.D.-300 A.D. Origen, Lactantius
325 A.D. Eusebius
375 A.D. Cyril of Jerusalem

Click to expand...